Dessert Wines for the Holidays

[grandcru]

wines that foam"

Of course, these would be a must at El Bulli.

[melkor]

Taste is subjective; opinions are individual; but quality is not subjective. There never has been a sweet wine made in California that will stand up to Chateau d'Yquem in a good year - that isn't really open for debate. A case can be made for some TBAs, Eisweins, or Tokaji Essencia, being at that level.

The lower acidity in CA wines is also not really debatable either - volumes have been written on the subject. Warmer weather means lower acidity; it's just an issue that winemakers here need to deal with. I obviously don't believe that all California wine is crap, since more than half my wine is from CA. I've also got no interest in convincing you that my choice of dessert wines is any better than yours. My point was just that in terms of quality in absolute terms CA shows poorly. When you’re looking for value the same can be said once you are at around $20/375ml. If you want something that tastes good, is ready to drink when you bring it home, and won't cost too much money, sure California can be a good choice. There’s a lot to be said for variety as well, so that’s a perfectly good argument in favor of CA stickies.

I won't buy a case of Opus One, probably not a bottle and I'd likely pull up (ona practical day) in my Volvo. On a fun day pehaps in the Benz with the top down. (I'm sure that will fit your old world values better.)

I do think you’ve got a completely confused image of me here. I drive a Subaru, I’m on the Turley mailing list, and own exactly 2 bottles of red Bordeaux - I’m hardly an old-world stalwart. I just recognize what they do better than us. I’ve tasted through most of the wineries in Napa, a good percentage of what’s in Sonoma, and a fair amount of what else is produced in the state. The same things pop up again and again: lots of sugar, not enough acidity, the wines are very often cloying.

I’ve only got a couple domestic stickies in the cellar at the moment: a bottle of 99 Folie a Deux Frost Gewurztraminer that Carolyn Tillie mentioned earlier in the thread, and one last bottle of 94 Phelps Eisrebe. But I’ll likely buy more Eisrebe; Clos du Bois Fleur is nice, as is Raymond’s Eloquence; Mer Soleil Late is on my list to try.

Iron Horse is at the top of my list for domestic sparklers, but it again is in the same price range as most of the RM Champagnes. My current favorite cheapo sparkler is Col Vetoraz Prosecco for $15/bottle.

White zin serves a great purpose - it makes wine available to a much larger audience in the US and that’s a great thing for everyone. Sparkling Shiraz serves exactly the same purpose in Australia - again it’s a good thing there, but it’s no more than a novelty here than our white zinfandel is there.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not condemning anything. Drink what you like and enjoy it, and if you’re ever in the area let me know. I’ll drag a few bottles out of the cellar and meet you for dinner.

[Poots]

I had the good fortune to visit Hungary this year and do a small wine tour of the Tokaj region. Along with a 1993 Diznoko 6 puttonyos and a 1999 Oremus 5 puttonyos i brought back a 2000 Nobel Late Harvest Muscat Lunel from Grof Degenfeld and a Szamoridni(sp?) from Oremus. The latter 2 were much less intense than the aszu but certainly enjoyable. The restaurant at Diznoko also made an amazing seared foie gras that was glazed in their own tokaji aszu. Nothing like a whole day of Tokaji Aszu tasting to drive your body into diabetic sugar shock

I just recently purchased a Pieropan le Columbare recioto di Soave for 140 danish kroner(around 25 bucks). Have never tried it but it sounded interesting. did i make a bad purchase? Only in the past 2 years have i started adventuring in the world of dessert wines, but they're fantastic and have their own place, at least in my drinking world(and yours apparently)

Edited September 22, 2004 by Poots (log)

[CtznCane]

"Taste is subjective; opinions are individual; but quality is not subjective. There never has been a sweet wine made in California that will stand up to Chateau d'Yquem in a good year - that isn't really open for debate. A case can be made for some TBAs, Eisweins, or Tokaji Essencia, being at that level." --- If you wanted to single out a single best d'Yquem along with top TBA's and Tokaji would certainly be at the top yet that is for an individual best of show. On its best day can d'Yquem be beat? Not likely. Yet would the top Domestic efforts be off the quality chart? No. They may be a bar lower is all but your implication of lower quality is broad based while your conter-argument relies on a single vineyard and a handful of others. Take the whole of the sweet wines and I"m confident California and the states are at least on the same level as the French. On a broad base the Germans would have it hands down over the French.

"The lower acidity in CA wines is also not really debatable either - volumes have been written on the subject. Warmer weather means lower acidity; it's just an issue that winemakers here need to deal with. I obviously don't believe that all California wine is crap, since more than half my wine is from CA."---- To you they do not have enough acid. They may be lower but your statement was that they don't have enough acid. They may not have enough for your taste. You choose to put something down rather than simply state that to you it is too this or that. Frankly that's crap.-- As to value wise you think Califonia shows up poorly which is again subjective not to mention I completely disagree with that assesment but that is just my opinion as the other is yours. Yours certinaly isn't fact nor is mine, they are simply are views.

"I do think you’ve got a completely confused image of me here. I drive a Subaru, I’m on the Turley mailing list, and own exactly 2 bottles of red Bordeaux - I’m hardly an old-world stalwart." ---- Your Hummer and Opus One remark though was certainly the French style, old world hoisted on their own pitard type of comment though. Funny you should mention Turley as well. They too at their tasting room (Paso) have that same you-know-what doesn't stink type of demeanor.

"White zin serves a great purpose - it makes wine available to a much larger audience in the US and that’s a great thing for everyone. Sparkling Shiraz serves exactly the same purpose in Australia - again it’s a good thing there, but it’s no more than a novelty here than our white zinfandel is there." ----- Here I agree with you that it iserves a great purpose though I think innocuous might be a little better terminology than novelty. Serving a purpose much as fast food diner coffee serves a 'warm beverage' purpose. ----Once again though you make a blanket put down of the Sparkling Shiraz's. I've yet to see a complex white zin and don't know if it is possible having had different ones over the years but is that true with sparkling Shiraz? Not according to the Aussies who at least from their remarks after you bashed that wine seemed to show that it has a diverse potential. It does not however fit in with your image. In that regard the old world tried and true new can't be good attitude seems to shine on through.

I'll agree with you somewhat on high end, but go out and drink some low end sauternes. Quality? Not in my opinion. Try a few of the sparkling Shiraz's that were mentioned. I haven't had a chance to yet but I intend to. At that point I"ll say I like this or that or don't. Personally though I don't think you have enough experience with those to make an intelligent, if any, criticism.

It may not be what you say, but how you choose to say it. Which reminds me years ago of a lady friend of mine who had a t-shirt made up that said "Yes I do but that's no way to ask."

I'd welcome the opportunity to dig out a few wines of my own and go toe to toe,with you but hopefully in a way that when all is said and done is done without putting down the other's choices.

[Jon Tseng]

I had the good fortune to visit Hungary this year and do a small wine tour of the Tokaj region.  Along with a 1993 Diznoko 6 puttonyos and a 1999 Oremus 5 puttonyos i brought back a 2000 Nobel Late Harvest Muscat Lunel from Grof Degenfeld and a Szamoridni(sp?) from Oremus.  The latter 2 were much less intense than the aszu but certainly enjoyable.  The restaurant at Diznoko also made an amazing seared foie gras that was glazed in their own tokaji aszu.  Nothing like a whole day of Tokaji Aszu tasting to drive your body into diabetic sugar shock

Yes, had the same dish at Disznoko too. Thought the portion was generous but the aszu sauce too cloyingly sweet - like someone had dribbled a couple of tablespoons of honey all over the damn thing.

Then again, for those prices who's going to argue - thats the great thing about Tokay; fantastic sweet wines and cut-price foie gras. How can you go wrong???

The 99 Oremus 5 putts is a beautiful wine. Just about my favourite in the region - a great balance of fruitiness, sweetness and (relative) unpricyness!

The late harvest Degenfeld is the sort of wine I mentioned earlier in the thread, inexpensive, reasonably sweet and incredibly drinkable. The late harvest wines actually seem to be almost identical to sweet szamarodni in terms of the production method - the only different being they don't have to be aged in barrels for a couple of years... (so can be sold for HARD CASH that much earlier)

cheers

J

[Poots]

I hardly ever argue with foie gras Especially when it's inexpensive...also when i'm taking it off of someone else's plate(i was having the haslazle....fish soup). and my duck was very good. I think generally i preferred most 5 puttonyos over others possibly the perfect(for me) level of sweetness. of course even though some say 5 puttonyos, even within those wines the sugar levels can vary. The Oremus 5 was definitely the best wine i tasted while i was there. I just wish i had bought more! At Oremus they pulled out a small sample of essenzia too. It was an experience! At that point i don't even know if it was wine but it certainly was Something. if i recall correctly the guide told me that it ran in the low percentages(3 or 4) in alcohol and could take years to ferment even that.

[Jon Tseng]

The Oremus 5 was definitely the best wine i tasted while i was there.  I just wish i had bought more!  At Oremus they pulled out a small sample of essenzia too.  It was an experience!  At that point i don't even know if it was wine but it certainly was Something.  if i recall correctly the guide told me that it ran in the low percentages(3 or 4) in alcohol and could take years to ferment even that.

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Hehe. Yes, I think I did the same tasting as you at Oremus. They also had a great 6 putts "estate selection" 99 with 20% muscat (and it showed!) which I nabbed a bottle of.

The essenzia was great stuff. Tasted the Oremus 95 and the 99, which hasn't been released yet but was in a propah bottle and everything. The 99 definitely better - much less overwhelmingly sweet/gloopy than the 95, though I wouldn't turn either of them down! The one thing to bear in mind when considered essenzia is simply ITS NOT WINE. With that much sugar and that little alcohol think of it as as a slightly boozy sugar rush (in a nice way!), but not as a wine in the strictest sense of the word.

And gratifyingly there is a really good (and reasonably priced) selection of top class Tokaj at the Budapest Ferengy Duty Free (if anyone's ever passing through), including the Oremus 99, Disznoko 5 putts 93 (though I guess that will run out at some point) and the equivalent 99

Damn, now you've got me wanting more!

J

[Poots]

Other than with foie gras and by itself, what would you reccomend to eat with a

Tokaji Aszu? Only desserts, which ones? Starters or mains? I've been looking for a good enough reason and accompaniment to open one of my last bottles. I just jumped through a few of my pics from that trip. I'll see about either writing up some of it or just making a slide show through imagegullet. If i write it up i may need to find lots of synonyms of golden, apricot, and honey....

--brian

[melkor]

"Taste is subjective; opinions are individual; but quality is not subjective. There never has been a sweet wine made in California that will stand up to Chateau d'Yquem in a good year - that isn't really open for debate. A case can be made for some TBAs, Eisweins, or Tokaji Essencia, being at that level." ---  If you wanted to single out a single best d'Yquem along with top TBA's and Tokaji would certainly be at the top yet that is for an individual best of show.  On its best day can d'Yquem be beat?  Not likely.  Yet would the top Domestic efforts be off the quality chart?  No.  They may be a bar lower is all but your implication of lower quality is broad based while your conter-argument relies on a single vineyard and a handful of others.  Take the whole of the sweet wines and I"m confident California and the states are at least on the same level as the French.  On a broad base the Germans would have it hands down over the French. 

It's absolutely true that there is awful wine made everywhere, it's just hard to say who makes the most awful wine. Germany produces a lot of really bad wine, but thanks to Terry Thiese and others we in the US have access to most of the best they offer. The thing that screws up this discussion with regard to value/price is that the majority of Sauternes are available on futures for very little money - 01 Rieussec for example was $22/375 on futures and is now $50+ for fall delivery and likely $75-$100/375 once it's in stores - what does that make the price when comparing it to other wines? Cheaper than the $30 California wines? Twice the price of Violeta? As little as I care for the Wine Spectator, I'd bet the 01 Rieussec makes their top 10 list, likely at the top spot.

To be clear my counter argument is based on carefully picking wines from all over France, Germany, and Austria and comparing them to carefully picked wines from CA. I'd say Hungary is the only place that would give you a better chance of getting a good bottle by picking completely at random than Germany; however Germany, Austria, and Hungary all give better odds than France, Canada, Australia, NZ, or America.

"The lower acidity in CA wines is also not really debatable either - volumes have been written on the subject. Warmer weather means lower acidity; it's just an issue that winemakers here need to deal with. I obviously don't believe that all California wine is crap, since more than half my wine is from CA."----  To you  they do not have enough acid.  They may be lower but your statement was that they don't have enough acid.  They may not have enough for your taste.  You choose to put something down rather than simply state that to you it is too this or that.  Frankly that's crap.-- As to value wise you think Califonia shows up poorly which is again subjective not to mention I completely disagree with that assesment but that is just my opinion as the other is yours.  Yours certinaly isn't fact nor is mine, they are simply are views.

I actually believe it to be a generally agreed upon fact that acidity and sugar balance eachother out. Given that in general terms California wine is lower in acidity than it's old world counterparts that would present a problem when it comes to dessert wine.

"I do think you’ve got a completely confused image of me here. I drive a Subaru, I’m on the Turley mailing list, and own exactly 2 bottles of red Bordeaux - I’m hardly an old-world stalwart."  ----  Your Hummer and Opus One remark though was certainly the French style, old world hoisted on their own pitard type of comment though.  Funny you should mention Turley as well.  They too at their tasting room (Paso) have that same you-know-what doesn't stink type of demeanor.

Oh, no argument from me about the Turley tasting room being full of people who I'd rather not be lumped in with. I'm just saying I don't have anything against new world wine. Besides, Turley zin from the mailing list at $20/bottle is a pretty good deal.

"White zin serves a great purpose - it makes wine available to a much larger audience in the US and that’s a great thing for everyone. Sparkling Shiraz serves exactly the same purpose in Australia - again it’s a good thing there, but it’s no more than a novelty here than our white zinfandel is there."  -----  Here I agree with you that it iserves a great purpose though I think innocuous might be a little better terminology than novelty.  Serving a purpose much as fast food diner coffee serves a 'warm beverage' purpose. ----Once again though you make a blanket put down of the Sparkling Shiraz's.  I've yet to see a complex white zin and don't know if it is possible having had different ones over the years but is that true with sparkling Shiraz?  Not according to the Aussies who at least from their remarks after you bashed that wine seemed to show that it has a diverse potential.  It does not however fit in with your image.  In that regard the old world tried and true new can't be good attitude seems to shine on through.

I've got no idea if it's possible to make a complex white zin, but Clos Pegase makes a very nice Merlot Rose ($13 @ Winery). I haven't been able to find any of the sparkling Shiraz's that were suggested on that thread, though I forgot to look when I was in Sydney last month. On the bright side, no sparkling Shiraz can be as bad as the sparkling Cabernet Sauvignon from Napa.

I'll agree with you somewhat on high end, but go out and drink some low end sauternes.  Quality?  Not in my opinion.  Try a few of the sparkling Shiraz's that were mentioned.  I haven't had a chance to yet but I intend to.  At that point I"ll say I like this or that or don't.  Personally though I don't think you have enough experience with those to make an intelligent, if any, criticism. 

I'll pass on the low end Sauternes, Vouvray offers a nice alternative at those price points. My wine purchases are almost entirely based on my experience tasting the wines. I taste an awful lot of wines a year and only end up buying a few dozen. I've tried every sparkling Shiraz I've been able to get my hands on, it hasn't been pretty

It may not be what you say, but how you choose to say it.  Which reminds me years ago of a lady friend of mine who had a t-shirt made up that said "Yes I do but that's no way to ask."

I'd welcome the opportunity to dig out a few wines of my own and go toe to toe,with you but hopefully in a way that when all is said and done is done without putting down the other's choices.

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I've got no interest in putting down your choices, nor do I mind you calling me a knucklehead. It's your money and your welcome to spend it however you wish. I also don't think I was suggesting any sort of wine related competition, besides the simple fact is that if we each bring a few bottles of wine by the time we open the last one it will obviously be the best

[melkor]

Other than with foie gras and by itself, what would you reccomend to eat with a

Tokaji Aszu?  Only desserts, which ones?  Starters or mains? I've been looking for a good enough reason and accompaniment to open one of my last bottles.  I just jumped through a few of my pics from that trip.  I'll see about either writing up some of it or just making a slide show through imagegullet.  If i write it up i may need to find lots of synonyms of golden, apricot, and honey....

--brian

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My favorite pairing so far with Tokaji was a pineapple creme brulee at Gary Danko with a 5 Putt.

[rlibkind]

Don't discount the Finger Lakes. Hermann Wiemer, for example, has made a very well balanced TBA (no longer available) and currently offers both late harvest riesling and late harvest riesling ice wine, either of which are worthy.

[melkor]

Don't discount the Finger Lakes. Hermann Wiemer, for example, has made a very well balanced TBA (no longer available) and currently offers both late harvest riesling and late harvest riesling ice wine, either of which are worthy.

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Absolutely the fingerlakes wines are hugely underrated, but I think the crazy shipping laws in NY prevent most of us from being able to enjoy them so they get no press.

[Jon Tseng]

Other than with foie gras and by itself, what would you reccomend to eat with a

Tokaji Aszu?  Only desserts, which ones?  Starters or mains? I've been looking for a good enough reason and accompaniment to open one of my last bottles.  I just jumped through a few of my pics from that trip.  I'll see about either writing up some of it or just making a slide show through imagegullet.  If i write it up i may need to find lots of synonyms of golden, apricot, and honey....

--brian

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Lychee as well, if its a muscat...

Blue cheese a classic combo, though I find the wine seems to go too quickly if having it with cheese - need a decent size sip for each bite of blue...

Le Gavroche in London does a tokaj-flavoured bavarois mousse ("delice de tokaj") with a glass of 5-putt served on the side

Otherwise... I guess something fruity, especially if its one of the modern, reductive ones (the Oremus certainly is)... a classic tarte tatin given its autumn... or maybe some poached peaches if you can just catch the arse end of the stone fruit season?

cheers

J

PS thats the other great thing about tokay - you can drink it young or you can age it years... good either way... none of this bloody faffing having to let it sit there for twenty years you get with sauternes (whats the point of getting a dirt cheap 99 yquem if you can't drink the bloody thing for another five years???) downside of this is, of course, to tempting to drink it all up now!

Edited September 22, 2004 by Jon Tseng (log)

[KatieLoeb]

I just had the pleasure of tasting today, at a luncheon sponsored by Chalk Hill winery, their Semillon Botrytis 1997. It was absolutely luscious, well balanced with acidity and was served with a pear poached in Moscato and "autumn" spices stuffed with Hazelnut flavored whipped mascarpone. It was the most glorious pairing of the day (and there were several excellent ones in courses prior to dessert) and definitely made me understand why dessert wines really compliment certain dishes more than others. The wine itself is pretty expensive, about $110 in PA for a 375, but certainly as delicious as a fine Tokaji or Sauterne in a similar price range. It was really really delicious

This explains why I'm going home early today and taking a nap...

[rlibkind]

Absolutely the fingerlakes wines are hugely underrated, but I think the crazy shipping laws in NY prevent most of us from being able to enjoy them so they get no press.

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If you think it is difficult getting Finger Lakes wine in California, it's impossible in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania thanks to our # & + ? $ > * @ ! % & # state store system.

[Brad Ballinger]

I've been away for a few days. Good topic. Good discussion.

The first thing I read that I was going to quote and comment on was the California dessert wines are low in acidity comment. Yep. In my experience, I've found the dessert wines from California -- on average, there are always exceptions -- to be lower in acid (and lab work also bears this out). For me, they are better drunk shortly after release whereas many dessert wines from European regions -- again, on average -- improve with age.

Violeta has been mentioned. I've had this wine on three occasions. Once pulling the cork the same day I bought it at the winery. Again a year later. And finally 5 years later. All bottles were of the 1995 vintage. The last one was over the hill, and it wasn't because it was a bad bottle. The middle one was okay, but not as vibrant as the one just after release.

[Carolyn Tillie]

I've been away for a few days.  Good topic.  Good discussion.

The first thing I read that I was going to quote and comment on was the California dessert wines are low in acidity comment.  Yep.  In my experience, I've found the dessert wines from California -- on average, there are always exceptions -- to be lower in acid (and lab work also bears this out).  For me, they are better drunk shortly after release whereas many dessert wines from European regions -- again, on average -- improve with age.

Violeta has been mentioned.  I've had this wine on three occasions.  Once pulling the cork the same day I bought it at the winery.  Again a year later.  And finally 5 years later.  All bottles were of the 1995 vintage.  The last one was over the hill, and it wasn't because it was a bad bottle.  The middle one was okay, but not as vibrant as the one just after release.

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There is an occasional exception, but I believe you are correct in this assessment. I had a short stint at Stag's Leap Wine Cellars and was given a '74 or '76 (can't remember now) Late Harvest. While I don't remember the year, I do remember it stood up beautifully after 20-ish years, being a lovely dark gold color, complex and layered in fruit, honey, and herb. I tried to find my exact tasting notes on another site where I know I posted them, but am coming up short. Suffice to say the bottle was shared with a dozen other dudes "in the industry" and all were extremely impressed...

[melkor]

There is an occasional exception, but I believe you are correct in this assessment. I had a short stint at Stag's Leap Wine Cellars and was given a '74 or '76 (can't remember now) Late Harvest. While I don't remember the year, I do remember it stood up beautifully after 20-ish years, being a lovely dark gold color, complex and layered in fruit, honey, and herb. I tried to find my exact tasting notes on another site where I know I posted them, but am coming up short. Suffice to say the bottle was shared with a dozen other dudes "in the industry" and all were extremely impressed...

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I'm not trying to disagree with you here, but I'm curious if you or any of the other people who tasted that wine (I believe I was there) had tried it earlier in its almost 30 year life? I recall the wine being good, but I got much more nutty character from the wine than fruit/honey. I suspect it would have been better a decade or so earlier when it had more fruit and less nutty character. But I also recall the wine being from the early 80s, so maybe I'm losing my mind in my old age.

[Carolyn Tillie]

I'm not trying to disagree with you here, but I'm curious if you or any of the other people who tasted that wine (I believe I was there) had tried it earlier in its almost 30 year life?  I recall the wine being good, but I got much more nutty character from the wine than fruit/honey.  I suspect it would have been better a decade or so earlier when it had more fruit and less nutty character.  But I also recall the wine being from the early 80s, so maybe I'm losing my mind in my old age.

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OHMYGOSH, you WERE there, weren't you? It was my 1980s party that were mostly folks from Robin Garr's Wine Lover's Discussion Group...

But I am also recalling how I got that wine -- a tasting that was done with Julian Serrano, Lee Iaoccoca, a dozen or so other folks, and 3 sommelier who were opening a huge flight of Cabernets, notes here. The dessert wine was an afterthought by Warren Winiarski so I didn't include notes at the time.

Sadly, I was not privy to the wine a decade earlier and there is no way to guess what it might have been like. Funny that I remember the honey and fruit but you remember nuttiness... I'm older than you and admit to having a horrible memory, but it is possible the bottle date was in the 80s...

[melkor]

Last night for dessert we had 1996 Ch La Tour Blanche and 1990 Ch Rieussec side by side. The Rieussec is a much bigger wine, it's slightly darker than the La Tour, it's got loads of honey and citrus, and is very nicely balanced with great acidity to match its considerable sugar level. The La Tour Blanche on the other hand at 6 years younger holds its own like a champ, light gold in color; it's full of toffee and apricot with a long spicy finish, very nice. The 96 La Tour Blanche is a complete steal - I just picked up a case of 750s for $25 a bottle.

[Carolyn Tillie]

Last night for dessert we had 1996 Ch La Tour Blanche and 1990 Ch Rieussec side by side.  The Rieussec is a much bigger wine, it's slightly darker than the La Tour, it's got loads of honey and citrus, and is very nicely balanced with great acidity to match its considerable sugar level.  The La Tour Blanche on the other hand at 6 years younger holds its own like a champ, light gold in color; it's full of toffee and apricot with a long spicy finish, very nice.  The 96 La Tour Blanche is a complete steal - I just picked up a case of 750s for $25 a bottle.

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Where did you buy the LaTour Blance from? I was buying the '97 at about the same price up until I moved here to NoCal and then couldn't find it anywhere. I loved that stuff, especially for the price!

[melkor]

Where did you buy the LaTour Blance from? I was buying the '97 at about the same price up until I moved here to NoCal and then couldn't find it anywhere. I loved that stuff, especially for the price!

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Wine House in SF, The Rare Wine Co in Sonoma has the 375's for $23 each if Wine House is sold out.

edit: added link for wine house

Edited September 24, 2004 by melkor (log)

[melkor]

Wine House in SF, The Rare Wine Co in Sonoma has the 375's for $23 each if Wine House is sold out.

edit: added link for wine house

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Seems they decided to raise the price to $35/bottle after selling me my case through their website. Still a reasonable deal, but much less of a steal now.