charlotte a la framboise

[ludja]

Hi all,

I'm thinking about making a recipe for this from the March 2000 Saveur (later tonight, for a get together tomorrow...!)

I haven't made it before and wonder if people can weigh in on whether the cake part of the recipe sounds reasonable. In particular, the amount of flour seems low to me. (A lower ratio than some Viennese sponge cake recipes I have...)

(In the recipe they say they scaled down the recipe in size from original at Chez Denise's in Paris--so it added my nervousness).

From the description (and photo) it looks like a genoise type cake; you cook it in a springform pan. Then split in half. Put half of cake back in pan, fill with raspberry bavarian type filling, then other half of cake on top. Then chill for 24 hrs to set. Serve w/raspberry sauce... From the photo, the cake is not very thick, the band of raspberry filling is as thick or more so than the cake.

Here is the recipe for the cake:

4 eggs, separated

1/2 cup sugar

7 Tbs cake flour

1 1/4 tsp vanilla extract

Whisk egg yolks and sugar together until pale yellow. Gradually beat in flour until smooth. Add vanilla and set aside. Whip egg whites to stiff peaks and gradually fold into cake mixture, w/o deflating whites.

Two questions:

1. Does the amount of flour seem ok?

2. Any possibility of substituting all-purpose flour for the cake flour or will that result in dire consequences?

Thanks so much for any replies in advance!

[ludja]

I actually found that I did have some cake flour at home, so that part is taken care of.

Also did some googling and came across this info re: cake vs all-purpose flour: joy of baking flour information

Still eager to hear if people think the amount of flour sounds ok!

[amccomb]

Well, take this with a grain of salt (or two) because I am a home baker, but I have a flourless chocolate cake recipe that separates the eggs like that and then you fold in the eggwhites. The only differences - my recipe has chocolate and has no flour at all. So, if it were me, I would give it a shot. The worst thing that happens is you eat raspberry mousse with no cake. :)

[McDuff]

Hi all,

I'm thinking about making a recipe for this from the March 2000 Saveur (later tonight, for a get together tomorrow...!)

I haven't made it before and wonder if people can weigh in on whether the cake part of the recipe sounds reasonable.  In particular, the amount of flour seems low to me.  (A lower ratio than some Viennese sponge cake recipes I have...)

(In the recipe they say they scaled down the recipe in size from original at Chez Denise's in Paris--so it added my nervousness).

From the description (and photo) it looks like a genoise type cake; you cook it in a springform pan.  Then split in half.  Put half of cake back in pan, fill with raspberry bavarian type filling, then other half of cake on top.  Then chill for 24 hrs to set.  Serve w/raspberry sauce...  From the photo, the cake is not very thick, the band of raspberry filling is as thick or more so than the cake.

Here is the recipe for the cake:

4 eggs, separated

1/2 cup sugar

7 Tbs cake flour

1 1/4 tsp vanilla extract

Whisk egg yolks and sugar together until pale yellow.  Gradually beat in flour until smooth.  Add vanilla and set aside.  Whip egg whites to stiff peaks and gradually fold into cake mixture, w/o deflating whites.

Two questions:

1. Does the amount of flour seem ok?

2. Any possibility of substituting all-purpose flour for the cake flour or will that result in dire consequences?

Thanks so much for any replies in advance! 

←

I think this will work. But I wouldn't use cake flour. It's swill.

[nightscotsman]

I think this will work. But I wouldn't use cake flour. It's swill.

←

Huh? Granted cake flour doesn't have much nutritive value, but it's certainly not swill. Care to explain your comment?

[DiH]

From the description (and photo) it looks like a genoise type cake; you cook it in a springform pan.  Then split in half.  Put half of cake back in pan, fill with raspberry bavarian type filling, then other half of cake on top.  Then chill for 24 hrs to set.  Serve w/raspberry sauce...  From the photo, the cake is not very thick, the band of raspberry filling is as thick or more so than the cake.

Here is the recipe for the cake:

4 eggs, separated

1/2 cup sugar

7 Tbs cake flour

1 1/4 tsp vanilla extract

Whisk egg yolks and sugar together until pale yellow.  Gradually beat in flour until smooth.  Add vanilla and set aside.  Whip egg whites to stiff peaks and gradually fold into cake mixture, w/o deflating whites.

Two questions:

1. Does the amount of flour seem ok?

What a luscious sounding dessert! Would you mind posting the recipe for the raspberry bavarian type filling... I'd love to give it a whirl.

As for the 7 tbsp. flour... I'd be tempted to use a recipe I was already familiar with. Y'know, if it walks like a genoise and quacks like a genoise...

Good luck!

Di

[Swisskaese]

Hi Ludja,

The recipes I have for charlotte either use a Jaconde or Sponge Cake recipe.

The Jaconde recipe is for a 12 x 16 inch or 13 x 200 baking sheet

2 eggs

5 1/4 oz (1 cup+ 2 tbsp) almond and sugar powder

1 oz (3 tbsp) all purpose flour

2 egg whites

1/8 tsp cream of tartar

1 oz (2 tbsp) superfine sugar

1/2 oz (1 tbsp) unsalted butter

The sponge recipe makes two 8 1/4 inch rounds

4 eggs separated

1/8 tsp cream of tartar

1 1/2 oz (3 tbsp.) superfine sugar

2 oz (1/4 c+ 3 tbsp) icing sugar

2 1/4 oz (1/2 cup) flour

3/4 oz (2 tbsp) potato starch

I will be happy to PM you the rest of the recipes if you are interested.

Edited September 11, 2004 by Swisskaese (log)

[chefpeon]

Huh?  Granted cake flour doesn't have much nutritive value, but it's certainly not swill. Care to explain your comment?

Count me in too! I'm waiting anxiously. I'd hate to think I've been making wedding swill all these years....

[Wendy DeBord]

I'd make the recipe as is. The flour quantity could be/should be perfect, it doesn't raise any red flags in my head. I don't have a ladyfinger recipe sitting in front of me this second but thats what it seem to be. Are you supposed to pipe this batter out or bake it in a pan?

You can use ap. flour with-out dire consquences. You'd have to do a side by side taste comparison to really notice the difference. Don't 'beat' the flour into your yolks........just incorporate it and stop your mixer.

[McDuff]

Huh? Granted cake flour doesn't have much nutritive value, but it's certainly not swill. Care to explain your comment?

←

Yeah, I love that fresh chemical smell that emanates from a freshly opened bag of cake flour. The gaseous chlorine quality to it..didn't you ever notice it? I prefer to think that a deft hand with the ap flour works too. I can't use cake flour at work, and won't use it at home. We're starting to get in some new products from an outfit called Pearl River Pastry and one of them lists unbleached unbromated cake flour, does such a thing exist? Even the King Arthur catalog says their cake flour is bleached.

[Redsugar]

I would not want, by any means, to appear disputatious, but it is somewhat astounding to read that cake flour should be deemed “swill.” The use of this wonderful flour ensures a lighter, more tender crumb due to its delicate gluten structure. (Pastry flour has marginally greater structure. It’s not quite as delicate as cake flour, but it’s still softer than a.p.) All-purpose flour is not commonly used in bakeshops. Both cake & pastry flours are made from soft wheat that produces flour lower in gluten than a.p. flour. Cake flour is specially milled to produce delicate pastries and cakes. Although figures basically vary from brand to brand, cake flour usually has about 7 percent protein (i.e., gluten) content; whereas pastry flour has 8 to 10 percent.

If a baker has a view to creating Italian recipes such as Casareccio Bolognese, Ciambella, or those polenta cookies known as Gialetti, then it would be important to use flour a low protein content. In Italy, a grade “0” flour is used, which is a very weak flour, perfect for the types of bread they bake. American high-gluten, hard-wheat flour would be inappropriate as it would not provide optimal results in such products.

Here's a notable San Francisco bakery that uses unbleached cake flour in the production of its fine goods:

The French Patisserie

To each his own, of course! Yet, if anyone is still not persuaded to use bleached cake flour, the unbleached version can be purchased in bulk from a natural foods market.

The question, Why is chlorinated (or bleached) flour used in cake and cookie formulations? was answered substantially by the April 2002 ed. of Baker’s Journal –

Soft wheat flours intended for use in cake and cookie production are often chlorinated to enhance baking performance by improving the functional properties of flour components. In the chlorination process, the flour is treated with chlorine gas. During this treatment the flour undergoes a pH reduction proportional to the level of chlorine applied. Manufacturers can then use pH as a specification for the purchase of chlorinated flours. Unbleached flour has a pH range of 5.8 to 6.1 while optimum performing bleached flour has a pH range of 4.6 to 5.1.

In cakes, chlorinated flours improve the structure forming capacity, allowing the manufacture of cakes with high ratio formulations (high level of sugar to flour). At the optimum chlorination level, cakes have improved product symmetry, increased volume and a more desirable grain structure and texture over those produced with non-chlorinated flours.

In cookie manufacturing, chlorine treatment of flour is used to control cookie spread. Consistent cookie diameter improves overall product quality and helps avoid packaging problems. Chlorinated flour reduces spread and tightens the surface grain of cookies. The higher the level of chlorine applied, the smaller the diameter.

The exact action of the chlorine treatment on flour is not fully understood since chlorine is a non-specific reagent that can alter various components of the flour. The changes in functional properties are often attributed to the breakage of bonds in protein molecules. For cakes it is generally accepted that the structural strengthening effect is caused by the action of chlorine on starch as well as proteins. Studies on cookies have shown that the role of chlorination in the reduction of cookie spread may be attributed to oxidative changes in flour proteins.

http://www.gftc.ca/articles/2002/baker04.cfm

[McDuff]

Swill is a word I often use. I used to work with a guy who came in every afternoon and would kick the 5 gal pail of cooling soup and say, "What's this swill?" Like the word, bandy it around. Use all the cake flour you want. My personal philosophy does not include the use of artificial colors or any unnatural ingredients, which is what I consider a flour blasted with chlorine to be.

[chefpeon]

Swill is a word I often use. I used to work with a guy who came in every afternoon and would kick the 5 gal pail of cooling soup and say, "What's this swill?" Like the word, bandy it around. Use all the cake flour you want. My personal philosophy does not include the use of artificial colors or any unnatural ingredients, which is what I consider a flour blasted with chlorine to be.

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You should come to work here in Port Townsend. All the swill-hating holistic sandal-wearing,

whole grain, label readers would love you.

[Carrot Top]

How did it come out, ludja? Did you have time to make it yet?

It sounds truly delicious....

[ludja]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions folks.

It is a slightly embarassing story, but here goes. As a combination of advice on the thread and my own inclination to try it; I decided to go ahead with the cake recipe they gave. As mentioned above, I had cake flour at home so I used that. I've made lots of cakes with separated eggs--but for me-- this one just wouldn't raise (or stay raised) I'm not sure which scenario occured. (I didn't want to peek in the oven during the first 10 min). In fact the cake was only about 1 inch high. (From photos, etc, I was expected about a 3 inch cake). I tasted a little of the cake and it didn't taste bad-- so since I didn't have much time, I dug out another 4 eggs and tried again. The second time I added a little creme of tartar to the whites and was even more careful in folding them in.

And the result...another 1 inch high cake! It may be that Sinclair's advice is the ticket. I don't have a standing electric mixer so I used a balloon whisk to add the flour. Maybe I overbeat the yolks? Simplistically I thought it a good idea to incorporate air into the yolks. Is that the yolks would be overbeaten or that the gluten too developed? Any other ideas?

Luckily as mentioned, the cakes did still taste good--surprisingly perhaps, not too heavy. The rasberry bavarian filling came out very nice. And the plated dessert looked spectacular-- a wedge of cake with a 2 inch band of raspberry creme in the middle surround by a pool of dark raspberry syrup. (The raspberry filling and syrup also have pear liqueur included). I made this for a friend's birthday party and it was a very beautiful cake--big too; could serve up to 12 people easily.

Swisskaese: Thank you so much for you favorite charlotte cake recipes. They sound nice and may be the ticket for me... considering I struck out 2 for 2 on the original recipe!

This recipe is included in Saveur's online archive: Charlotte a la Framboise so you can see what it looks like and/or take a stab at it yourself if interested.

I think I will definately make this again; I'll just have to learn how to make the cake better or use another recipe.

[Wendy DeBord]

Ah, I see a problem with your recipe. Your buttering your pan for a cake that needs to cling to the sides of the pan to raise. Instead next time line the bottom of your pan with parchment paper, then leave your sides plain- un-buttered. Let the cake cool completely in the pan, when cool/room temp. take your knive and go around the inside edge to free your cake from clinging to the pan. Then invert and de-pan.

Also 4 eggs in a 9" cake pan is shy. You could double that recipe and bake it in the same 9" pan, then you'd have enough to split your layers easily. Lastly you don't need to use a springform pan, I think a reg. pan is better because you won't have a lip on the edge of your cake.

[ludja]

Ah, I see a problem with your recipe. Your buttering your pan for a cake that needs to cling to the sides of the pan to raise. Instead next time line the bottom of your pan with parchment paper, then leave your sides plain- un-buttered. Let the cake cool completely in the pan, when cool/room temp. take your knive and go around the inside edge to free your cake from clinging to the pan. Then invert and de-pan.

Also 4 eggs in a 9" cake pan is shy. You could double that recipe and bake it in the same 9" pan, then you'd have enough to split your layers easily. Lastly you don't need to use a springform pan, I think a reg. pan is better because you won't have a lip on the edge of your cake.

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Thanks Sinclair!

I did assiduously butter the sides of the pan! I'm eager to try this again now (I guess the scientist in me wants to repeat the expt). Thanks for the detailed feedback and other tips.