Lyon

[ajay]

Perhaps the problem was our boorishness. Rather than simply leave the gratuity on the table, we attempted to give it directly to the Capitan, but were informed that it was taken care of. We received the same response when we settled the bill during check-out. Either way, while not cheap, I believe Troisgros presents a prospective diner with an amazing dinning experience that is a good value.

[marcus]

It would be impolite for them to return the tip to you later. You should try handing it directly to the waiter when you sign the credit card slip and see what happens. It is not boorish to hand the tip directly, in fact it is more correct, and must be done when you are explicitly tipping more than one service person.

Edited February 18, 2003 by marcus (log)

[cabrales]

marcus -- There's no need to sign any credit card slips, or anything else, when one has a room at Troisgros. As you know, there is typically a row of dining room team members, including a maitre d', standing along the wall that is on the right when one enters the main dining room (along that wall, there is a little entryway for one of the smaller rooms). Anyhow, I have sat at the table right in front of several people just standing there, and left the added tip on more than one occasion. Several people saw it, clearly.

Also, I generally eat at least two consecutive meals there. It would be not be difficult for the team, if it knew I had left additional tips for the first meal, to pay particular attention and try to return it to me.

Has any other member tried to leave additional tips at Troisgros?

Edited February 18, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[marcus]

Actually, most people who leave tips, do not tip at individual meals when they stay at an inn, they leave a tip when they sign the credit car slip on checkout. When I first started dining in France, only boorish Americans would leave their tips on the plate, the French all handed over their tips directly. However, today this is no longer the case, although many French who tip still hand the tip directly to the waiter. Tipping was also more common, today many European nationals do not appear to tip at all, although in France I could not say whether it was 40% or 60%, but would strongly guess that it is in that range. The interesting question that you stated does remain, has anyone else who attempted to tip directly at Troisgros, had their tip refused. I do remember that the last time I ate there, which was quite awhile ago, there was a prominant statement on the menu that etiquette does not require you to pay anymore.

[cabrales]

marcus -- I didn't see that statement on the menu, although I don't have access to my menus currently. There are obviously numerous statements on many restaurants' menus that service is included. As discussed in the fresh_a Q&A, it is also obvious many French and other customers do not leave additional tips. However, I choose to do so and my repeated experience at Troisgros over the course of many meals, taken in as part of several visits, was that they were happy to take the tip.

You mentioned the practice that existed when you first started dining in France. So I can better evaluate that, how long ago might that have been, if you are comfortable discussing it? Do you believe the "hand over" to a single individual is still effective under today's practices, if you mean the tip to apply to the entire dining room team?

[marcus]

Cabrales -- My first fine dining experience in France was at the Auberge de L'Ill in 1964 when it still had 2 stars, I believe that it was promoted in 1966. I was stationed in the Army in Stuttgart at the time. The meal was a revalation and led to my now long standing interest.

When you hand a tip to the waiter who brings you the bill, it is no different than leaving it on the plate and it does get divided among the staff. I want to be clear that this is perfectly acceptable behavior today, and was not intended as a criticism. However, only when you hand over a tip directly, can it be politely refused in a person to person interaction. When you put it on the plate, they are not going to come running over to hand it back, that would be impolite. I don't believe that any French person would leave a tip, on the table or handed over, if they are not presented with a bill, which is the case when you are staying over in their hotel. The appropriate time to tender your optional tip is at checkout, best done in an envelope.

[Bux]

The appropriate time to tender your optional tip is at checkout, best done in an envelope.

Are you suggesting one might tip individuals that way, or leave a tip to be pooled by the staff? When one checks out in the morning, one may or may not see the same people who served dinner. In any event, the diner is likely to have been served by a team.

Only once have I seen someone try and leave a tip at checkout at a fine inn in France. It was a few years ago at Marc Meneau's l'Esperance. The young woman at the desk was as obstinate about not being able to distribute a gratuity to the dining room staff as the American gentleman was about insisting on leaving some sum for the service. She was most clear about there being neither a mechanism or precedent at her disposal for handling the tips. I don't ever recall seeing other guests who are staying at an inn leave cash on the table and if they tip, I'm oblivious to how and when they do it. I have been perplexed that it is our custom to leave a tip in a restaurant not connected to the inn in which I am staying when dining in Paris or the provinces, but not leaving a tip for the dining room staff at a fine inn.

[marcus]

I have seen tips left on checkout, but I think that the real point that you and ajay are exemplifying is that tipping is just not the thing in France any longer. We should probably all put aside our American discomfort with not tipping and just go with the flow.

[Paul Bell]

Just a quick thank-you for your advice.

Paul

[Tonyfinch]

Just a quick thank-you for your advice.

A tip would be nice.

[NYCdrew]

I would appreciate any comments on the following establishments.

Le Merciere

Bistrot de Lyon

Paul Bocuse's 4 places

We have 2 nights in Lyon and want to experience the local style of cooking (no haute cuisine).

Thanks in advance.

[NYCdrew]

I meant to add La Meuniere to the above list. Thanks again.

[Beachfan]

I would appreciate any comments on the following establishments. 

Le Merciere

Bistrot de Lyon

Paul Bocuse's 4 places

We have 2 nights in Lyon and want to experience the local style of cooking (no haute cuisine).

Thanks in advance.

I went to Le Sud, one of Bocuse's place. I was disappointed.

[Bux]

Early last spring we ate at Bocuse's le Sud. It's certainly not where you will experience the local style of cooking. It's cuisine is sort of a popular amalgum of Mediterranean cooking -- Italian, North African and Provencal -- and the menu seems designed by a corporate mentality as if it was a test run for a chain. The food wasn't bad, just impersonal and not what a visitor to Lyon should search out. The pasta and mozzarella actually seemed more alien to France than the tagines and couscous which have long been a part of the French diet. Brandade wrapped in phyllo and served with an intense tomato sauce and cold tomato (peeled and seeded) and fresh grilled anchovies were other starters.

Bistrot de Lyon is not very exciting either, but if you stick to the local specialties -- think tripe -- you can eat well enough here. I had an andouillette that was irregular in shape and evocative of a barnyard in aroma. It was splendid and just what I wanted from Lyon. That whole stretch on rue Merciere seems verty touristy, but in fact, it's just very active on weekend nights with locals and tourists. Two of the things I would order in Lyon at a bistrot are andouillette and tablier de sapeur. If you're not familiar with them, the first is a sausage of tripe or chitlins and the latter is a thin piece of stomach(?) or tripe that is breaded and fried.

[anil]

Without comment a favourite of our local host

[Gary Marshall]

i tired the bistro du nord about 18 months ago.

from recollection it has a bit more history than the others and is more traditional. i believe it is the restaurant bocuse first started working in.

it is a traditional brasserie, lots of red banquettes and the usual bistro menu with a lyonnaise angle.

i had a quick lunch there but if you're not expecting gastronomic fire works i'm sure it would be a buzzy evening place to go.

gary

[Bux]

Without comment a favourite of our local host 

Rillieux-la-Pape, home to Larivoire, is about 7 km out of town. Larivoire is a one star restaurant and probably a good place to dine, but I'd question if I leaving the city for dinner unless I had a car at my disposal. I have traveled out of Lyon by taxi for dinner, but it was always to a two or three star restaurant and even then, I questioned the added cost in terms of the value of eating in one of the choices in town.

[elfin]

Will be in Lyon for only two days and Etienne for one day. Husband is dragging the baby (one year old) and I to the football games. So the only highlight for me will be the food. Is there a cafe, bistro or restaurant that you recommend to your friends and that you don't miss when you are in Lyon? Etienne for lunch? The number of places is frankly daunting. Merci!

[Sandra Levine]

Lyon dining

[Bux]

It's harder to go wrong in Lyon than in Paris, although I've made the mistake of finding out what kind of three course meal I could get for under fifteen dollars a few years back. With a one year old in tow--and am I confusing you with xomeone else, or are you going to be seven or eight months pregnant?--I'm going to take the liberty of assuming that a long gastronomic meal in one of the city's finer restaurants may not be on the agenda for this trip?

Auberge de l'Ile has had an excellent review here, and with only two forks and spoons in Michelin, it may work for as a casual place with two star food. We enjoyed the food at les Loges, but it's a fussy casual chic place and offered inconsistent service a year ago. I can't recommend it with an infant.

I can't recommend Assiette et Marée either. It was one of few disappointments in Lyon. Maybe if they hadn't lost our order, then brought us the wrong dishes and finally served us with poor renditions of what we had ordered that were probably rushed out, I might have let with a more neutral attitude. Other diners seemed happy.

I found le Bistrot de Lyon, a retro bouchon which isn't even listed in Michelin, to be quite satisfactory. I think Mrs. B was less pleased with her meal, but I thought she ordered too upscale a meal while I had a potage and an andouillette that appeared to be artisanal if not home made. That sort dish is what the bistrots of Lyon do well. Anything with tripe in it is usually good in Lyon, assuming you love tripe. I believe le Bistrot de Lyon was one of several started by Jean-Paul Lacombe chef of the venerable Leon de Lyon. Lacombe may no long have any connection and it's possible that le Bistrot is sliding downwards however.

Not much to offer. Unfortunately, our last stay in Lyon was as a stopping place and our focus was a tour of an area to the southwest of that city. Much has been written about Lyon here and Sandra has been good enough to provide a link to the threads in which it's been mentioned. Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff to sift through. A mention of the city may pop up once or twice in thread about entirely unrelated subjects.

[Louisa Chu]

I just saw a CuisineTV show here with Paul Bocuse where he takes the hostess around the Lyons Les Halles to taste his favourite cheeses, sausages, etc. They sit down for lunch at a little cafe inside at what looks like an American food court and are served a plate of simple, hearty, tasty food - literally meat and potatoes. Is this kind of thing good for one year olds? Lots of different stimuli? And I'm sure lots of vendors who will dote on the both of you! Bon voyage!

And football?

[Bux]

We've had several good posts about les Halles. There are a few restaurants in les Halles. I can't report on any of them with the exception of the raw bar at Maison Rousseau. If only out of habit, I tend to think of oysters in the colder months, but I don't think you get better or fresher oysters in Paris than here. Les Halles itself is an excellent market worthy of some window shopping if you don't have a kitchen in which to use most of the products. It's also a good place to buy cheese and charcuterie for a picnic.

[elfin]

Bux, you are correct-I will be 7 mos pregnant during our Lyon visit. So being stuck at two football matches plus toting around a one year old I am counting on the food to be the highlight. Loufood, the baby has eaten everything from Vietnamese to Mexican and is amused by the activities of a restaurant. So she is well-behaved (really). Therefore the casual but delicious places are the most desired at this point. Sandra could not access your link. Thanks to everyone for responding to my post. I REALLY NEED A GOOD MEAL!

[Bux]

Mealtime is always the highlight whenever and wherever I travel--or I'm sorry I am where I am. Any civilization that can offer me Michelangelo's David or Monet's waterlilies should be expected to offer a meal of the same quality.

My memory of babies, and kids, is that they keep you on their toes by always changing. By the time my daughter was six, she managed to defuse my frustrating moments by telling me she was just going through a stage. I think she even knew which book on the shelves to point to, hoping it would defend her point.

Lyon is a city of excellent provisions, although it may be less than obvious outside the more residential districts. The central market is but one source. Pack some snacks for the game.

If Sandra's link doesn't work, I suspect you can replicate by doing a search on "Lyon."

[ginger chef]

I went to lyon at the beginning of the month and had some fantastic meals all were of a different class , i went to bocuse, auberge de l ille , rotonde, leon de lyon , alexandarin , alain chapel and guy laussausaie

off all the restaurants the only one i didnt enjoy particularly was bocuse, yes the flavours were great but the whole restaurant was more of a shrine to him. if you need any info on any of these , i will be more than happy, incidently i went to boyers in reims and le grand cerf and auberge de relais around champagne last week if you need any info