PNW versus NY

[rooberu]

A business trip last week took me to the Big Apple for the first time, and I relished the opportunity to sample the world-renowned cuisine offered there.

I left a little disappointed to be quite frank. Perhaps I expected too much, and I readily admit that 2 days in NY is not a large enough sampling to make a definitive judgement. However, I had spent the previous weekend dining in Seattle and enjoyed the food much more.

Do any of you well-traveled folks find that Seattle is perhaps underrated on the national dining scene?

A rundown of where I ate for comparative purposes:

Seattle weekend

• Salumi's (Porchetta!!)
  
• Wild Ginger (still very good despite losing something in the move)
  
• Le Panier (chocalatine, amandine, and a latte is my favorite breakfast)
  
• Spanish Table (bocadillos)
  
• Harvest Vine (slightly disappointing given my previous experiences there. Still great though)
  
• Tutta Bella (love the margharita. Crust doesn't hold up to other toppings though)
  

New York

• Lupa (couldn't get into Babbo. Bucatini alla matriciana was way oversauced but otherwise everything else was outstanding)
  
• Gray's Papaya (I had to try the famous hot dogs. Good, but I'd rather have a Costco dog)
  
• Les Halles (Frites as good as advertised. loved the onion soup. Ribeye steak was fine)
  
• Lombardi's (Good, but the crust didn't have enough "chew" to it.)
  

I guess it's like hearing about how great a movie is, then when you see it you are disappointed even though the movie is enjoyable.

[ExtraMSG]

I've always found that if you take the top restaurants from a lot of major cities and put them up against similar top restaurants in cities like SF or Chicago, most cities do okay. But once you start to broaden things, throwing in ethnicities, trying to eat at a different place every night, etc, you see the weaknesses of these lesser food cities. If I go and get the things I like at my favorite places in Portland, I would put them up against some of the best dishes I've had at five star restaurants throughout the US. If I just compared our best Cuban or our best Mexican or whatever, we might be fine as well. But the sheer quantity and diversity that a city like NY has keeps cities like Seattle from truly competing. In basketball terms, cities like NY have a deep bench.

[laurel]

I think the factors of price and value also play into this. I can afford to eat (occasionally) at the most expensive places in Seattle, but the most expensive places in NYC are out of my budget, and I also think I'm getting more for my $50-$100 at one of the "best" places in Seattle vs. the "good" places in NYC.

I think this applies more at the mid-to-high end though. NYC has tons more choices for cheap food.

[Bux]

I don't know Seattle although I've spent several days there quite a few years ago and ate quite well. Although I did my homework and ate well, nothing approached the level of excellence I could find in NY at the time. At the top, NY has gotten even better since. Perhaps Seattle has as well, but I suspect there's still a gap.

Lombardi's often underbakes the crust. I don't think it's even consistently good, let alone the best in NY. Hot dogs are not my thing and and how they compare from city to city would matter very little in my estimation of any city's culinary fame in terms of world class ratings. Lupa and Les Halles are not important restaurants and that's as charitable as I need to be on that score. Lupa is not Babbo and not meant to be Babbo by any stretch of the imagination. Tell me where I can eat at the level of Per Se, Daniel, Jean Georges, Ducasse, le Bernardin, etc. in Seattle and we'll talk about world reknowned restaurants. We may be looking for different things in food and NY may not be a place that satisfies your interests or tastes. That would be fair enough, but if you're going to say you're disappointed by the world-renowned cuisine offered there, you really should sample some of it first.

[Pan]

I agree, Bux. And rooberu, get some square pizza with artichokes and porcini at DiFara's next time you're in New York. If you have any pizza that good in Seattle, I'd be really impressed!

[tsquare]

I agree, Bux. And rooberu, get some square pizza with artichokes and porcini at DiFara's next time you're in New York. If you have any pizza that good in Seattle, I'd be really impressed!

If we had any good pizza, I'd be impressed. And no, haven't been to Cafe Lago in ages, or Tutta Bella at all.

[slkinsey]

To follow up a bit on Bux's comments, I think it depends a little on what you're looking for.

Certainly, if you're looking for top-end fine dining, I don't think any other American city comes close to competing with NYC. Assuming from your list of NY places you visited, though, I gather that this is not the case for you.

So... let's look at the places you went:

• Lupa: Seems like your main criticism here is that the bucatini all'amatriciana was oversauced. Everything else you described as "outstanding." Lupa is a good restaurant, I think, but I think it is fundamentally a neighborhood osteria that has come to much greater attention due to Mario Batali's involvement. This is to say that I wouldn't expect a "peak Italian experience" at Lupa so much as I would expect competently-executed Roman-style osteria food. And I think that's what you get. As Bux points out, Lupa is no substitute for Babbo and it's not designed to be.
  
• Gray's Papaya: The thing about Grays' Papaya and similar places is that it's not about outstanding high quality, not really. I mean, they deliver a quality product... but the deal at Gray's is that you get an incredibly large amount of food for a pittance. It's reasonable that you wouldn't be blowin away by the hot dogs there. I think your NY experience would have been better had you gone to Katz's instead for a pastrami on rye.
  
• Les Halles: A nice place, but by no means standing above a large crowd of similar places. I'm guesing you probably wouldn't have gone here had it not been for the attention Tony Bourdain's celebrity brought to Les Halles. Not a place too many of us would have recommended as a "must try place."
  
• Lombardi's: Yea, well no wonder you weren't impressed. Lombardi's has seriously slipped and is generally considered the worst, by a large margin, of all the old-school coal-fired NYC pizzerie. A much better choice would have been Patsy's in East Harlem or Grimaldi's under the Brooklyn Bridge or, for a less NYC-centric wood-fired pizzeria, Franny's out in Prospect Heights.
  

As for the prices... there is no getting around the fact that NYC is expensive. A dollar will certainly go farther in Seattle than it will in NYC. On the other hand, for every dollar someone earns in Seattle, the same job is paying a dollar fifty in NYC. In terms of "food bought for hours worked at the same job" NYC is no more or less expensive.

[tommy]

putting my NYC pride aside for a moment, do any of you well-traveled folks think that seatlle is underrated.

[ScorchedPalate]

I don't think any of the PNW board regulars would contend that Seattle (or Portland) is the equal of NYC... or even of Vancouver or San Fran. Admittedly, we do have some amazing food here, and some stunning values: as Laurel rightly points out, our high-end is what most other cities would call moderately priced.

Speaking of Seattle specifically, I contend that we lack the depth and breadth of food choices (not to mention the consistency of the things that we do offer) that would make us a true foodie city. Before you flame me, let me say that we've got it pretty good here, and I'm happy about the standout restaurants that we do have, from Mistral to Union through Palace and Harvest Vine and down through Salumi and Lago and Seven Stars Pepper. I would truly mourn the loss of all of these places if I were to move away. Most of them could hold their own in any big city, even NYC. But our food scene as a whole can't hold a candle to the great food cities of the world. (Not that I think it's really trying, mind you...)

But back to Rooberu's post: I think it's possible to have a weekend of good eats in a second-tier food city, and entirely possible to have a terrible weekend in a top-tier destination. Cam and I had a bleh weekend in NYC recently (including a thoroughly lackluster visit to Gramercy Tavern), and we've had mind-altering weekends here at home. Some of it comes down to a city's innate quality of offerings, some of it is doing good research, and a great deal of it is the luck of the draw on any given visit.

And Tsquare, you really do need to get yourself to Lago.

~A

Edited August 10, 2004 by ScorchedPalate (log)

[ExtraMSG]

It's also style. Many NWers don't even like the high end dining style with formal service and architectural presentations. And one diner's creativity can be another diner's pretentiousness.

Personally, I like both styles. When I visited the bay area, I enjoyed my meal at Chez Panisse equally with The French Laundry.

[phaelon56]

Looking at the list of places you tried in NYC compared tp the reference points in Seattle it almost seems like an apples to oranges comparison to some extent. Add in the fact that the sampling size is so small and it's easy to see why you consider Seattle to be underrated (which of course does not imply that NYC is overrated - those are two entirely different topics.

Leaving high end "fine dining" out of the equation and looking at mid priced and ethnic offerings, NYC unquestionably has more choices to offer based on sheer numbers but I suspect that most folks, especially those that haven't visited Seattle or have only been there on brief business trips, don't think of Seattle as having a really interesting variety of high quality eating places.

Therein lies one of the many values of this community. Given adequate time to research and some sense of the tastes of other eGullet members who may offer advice, it's easy to put together a list of target places to try when traveling. On a recent trip to seattle I was overwhelmed with possible options but regrettably had time to try very few due to schedule and budget. Results can still be expected to vary wildly. It appears that there is very authentic mexican cuisine available in Seattle. Apart from some taco carts and a few isolated small cafes, there's very little if any of that in Seattle. SEattle seems to have a fair number of Vietnamese restuarsants - almost as many as NYC. The one I tried was highly recommended and although it compared favorably to my favorite place on Bayard Street in Chinatown (or Baxter - can't recall which), it didn't hold a candle to the one that used to stand in Nutley NJ before the fire (Little Saigon) and also couldn't measure up to my local Viet place here in Syracuse.

Yes, in the big scheme of things Seattle seems underrated as a food town. But not by me.

[Really Nice!]

Hey! Who invited all these New Yorkers in to our forum?

[bbqer]

Well, many of us PNWers feel you can't find much in the way of good pizza here. No decent delis or bagels to speak of either. No city can beat NYC for its street foods and ethnic culinary diversity. But we do have our own special places that are getting better and better. Now if I could only find more good Tex-Mex and Q!

[lala]

Seattle has it's own charms, but it's a quiet little city, not a big blockbuster metropolis. Much as I love Seattle, it's not a 'Top Tier' city, in any aspect, so it can't be compared to NY, SF, London, Paris, etc. I used to live in SF and London, and have been here in Seattle for 12 years, but still miss various restaurants/dishes that I enjoyed in those cities. That said, for a city of our size, with our ethnic makeup (not nearly as diverse as NY) I think we do pretty well.

And yes, I think that Seattle may be underrated on the national scene. We're not at all well represented in the food mags, most of which are published out of NY. As well, our overall style of cooking is simpler, so if someone is looking for high-falutin 'cuisine', they will simply have more choices elsewhere.

I do think that we have a marvelous bounty of raw foodstuffs, so what you do get is usually incredibly fresh. We just don't have the population or income level (more families here vs. high income singles who eat out more in NY/SF) to support the high end places.

We may not have the best pizza, but I know a place that makes 6 kinds of pickled herring.....

[Pan]

The last time I was in Seattle (several, maybe 4 years ago), I had very tasty Indian food and a terrific Thai meal. I don't remember the names of the places, but I was impressed. It was a short visit - just 2, 3 days. I was staying with friends who knew where some good places were.

[mamster]

There's just no comparison. There are literally dozens of restaurants in New York that, if transplanted to Seattle, would instantly be the best restaurant in town, and not just the four-star places.

That said, there are plenty of areas in which Seattle can compete. Vietnamese food is one. Thai is another. I haven't been to Sripraphai (Laurie has), but I'd be quite surprised if it was any better than Noodle Boat. Then there are the places that exist on the force of one person's personality and skill and simply can't be found anywhere else, like Salumi and Harvest Vine.

The most interesting trend we're seeing in the Northwest is small plates focusing on artfully prepared high quality ingredients. What I like about this is that it's inventive without being over the top, and it capitalizes on something we really have going for us: ingredient quality. We're not going to have a restaurant here that competes with Ducasse, but our produce beats the pants off what you get in New York, and it's the chefs who start with great stuff and produce simple but not-too-simple dishes who are going to make Seattle (and Portland) dining destinations, if that happens. This approach is exemplified by Lark in Seattle and by any number of places (Park Kitchen, clarklewis, and so on) in Portland. Of course, I'm biased, because 95% of the time this is the kind of food I want to eat when I go out for a nice meal.

[kieran]

I've lived in Philadelphia and London and spent a lot of time in NYC (grew up right outside it). I've lived in Seattle now for just over two years, and I'd say that it's about on par with Philadelphia as far as foodieness goes: really good at some stuff, with some glaring holes (as pointed out, pizza and a good Jewish deli are two big lacks here in Seattle -- and that makes this east coast girl sad). What you don't have so much in a place like New York are the glaring holes: for most cuisines and styles of food, you can get some of it done well and some of it done *really* well.

I like living here, culinarily. I like that I can get some form of fresh regional produce almost all the time, and I like the good fish. I like the proliferation of Asian restaurants, and I like the great values that other people have cited. I like that most everywhere here is laid back and informal, especially compared to New York or San Francisco or London.

All in all it's a very good place to live and eat.

[Foodie-Girl]

There is no comparison (as I think Bux mentioned) in terms of restaurants such as Le Bernadin, Jean George, Babbo or about a dozen others I've been fortunate enough to enjoy.

For me, the biggest disappointment in even the better Seattle restaurants is the lack of professional service.

Sure, things run smoothly at Mistral or Lampreia but why must we spend $300 for dinner to get that level of service??? For me, this is one reason Seattle is not a 'restaurant city'....love it though I do

[olivina]

For me, the biggest disappointment in even the better Seattle restaurants is the lack of professional service.

Foodie-Girl, can you please give examples of how service at NYC restaurants is much better than Seattle's "better restaurants"?

Is it food knowledge, table service or attitude? What makes a good server in your opinion?

[Foodie-Girl]

Foodie-Girl, can you please give examples of how service at NYC restaurants is much better than Seattle's "better restaurants"?

Is it food knowledge, table service or attitude? What makes a good server in your opinion?

[olivina]

That all seems like basic stuff. Why do you think it doesn't happen enough in Seattle restaurants and is par for the course in NYC?

Clueless owners?

[mamster]

The standard of service at the average Seattle restaurant is far above the average New York restaurant. The standard of service at high-end restaurants is higher in New York. I got used to the idea that when I went into a neighborhood restaurant in New York, I would have to ask for every water refill -- and there was no drought at the time.

The reasons for bad service at any restaurant, in my view (barring the occasional off night) are high turnover and insufficient training, problems that feed off each other.

[phaelon56]

That said, there are plenty of areas in which Seattle can compete. Vietnamese food is one.

In that case I need a referral from you mamster. I had dinner at Saigon Bistro (on Jackson south of 12th upstairs - entrance in the back). The fresh rolls were markedly inferior to what I get here in Syracuse and the iced coffee with condensed milk was served premixed and was on the weak side (I saw an espresso machine when I was leaving - I suspect that's how they make it so fast and why it arrives at the table pre-mixed). In their defense I'll mention that the duck and cabbage salad was outstanding.

I went there based on an eG referral and found pretty good rec's for it in some local Seattle site as well. Were they having an off night or are there better places?(admittedly I tried a small sampling of items but fresh rolls, iced coffee and pho are my benchmarks for quality in a Viet restaurant - all three must be up to snuff or it fails my test - they flunked 2 out of 3 and I didn't have chance to try the pho).

The evening was saved by an excellent iced coffee to go from a banh mi joint just down the block on the other side. The sandwiches there (it's an old gas station) were dirt cheap but the coffee was pricey at $2.75 a cup. Take-away iced coffee at the good Viet deli's in NYC's Chinatown are only $2 and it's also a bigger cup.

[mamster]

Let's see. I like The Lemongrass, further north on 12th near Seattle U (good fresh rolls and banh xeo, haven't tried the coffee). I've heard good things about but haven't yet been to Moonlight Cafe on Jackson. I liked the seven courses of beef at Nha Trang, but it is no longer. I had a good meal at Green Papaya, on Pine, but have heard wildly mixed things since then.

I think the banh mi shop you mentioned is Buu Dien, which does have the best Vietnamese iced coffee I've tried.

[ExtraMSG]

The worst service I've ever encountered was in a "food city": San Francisco. Abyssmal service pretty uniformly, at both high end and low end places, and on things I think are pretty fundamental, like course timing. Dinners would take a minimum of 3 hours with waits of 30 minutes or more between courses. Only once you got out of SF, even just over to Berkeley or up to the wine country, did things improve. I'll take the NW's laid-back attitude with minor gaffs here and there over professional, but fundamentally flawed, service anyday. I wouldn't mind if PNW servers paid a little more attention to the details, but not if it meant they were going to cop an attitude. I can wear shorts and a polo to almost any restaurant in Portland and still be treated as well as a customer in suit and tie.