A Chat with Gillian Clark

[DonRocks]

I'd like to officially welcome Gillian Clark to eGullet, and say thank you in advance for being a guest in our house.

Gillian, I've heard from many people on this forum that they're looking forward to a lively, informative, perhaps even raucous back-and-forth together, and I'd like to start with a couple of questions of my own. At this point, everyone else should feel free to ask anything they wish.

1) What narcotic do you put in your tartar sauce to make it so darned good?

2) You fry as well as anyone I've ever seen. Would you mind talking about the art of frying? And if you don't consider it an art, what makes you so talented at it? At the minimum, you must treat it with an enormous respect, or perhaps you just do it second-nature and I'm reading too much into it (in which case I have a followup question: why can't anyone else seem to do it like you can?)

And once again, welcome, and thank you!

Rocks.

[Gillian Clark]

1) What narcotic do you put in your tartar sauce to make it so darned good?

Good morning everyone,

Thanks for inviting me to eGullet today.

Rocks,

The secret to my Tartar Sauce, while often mistaken for a narcotic and even truffle oil, is simply that I start with really good mayonnaise. We make it from scratch with plenty of lemon juice....almost too much lemon juice. Then it is pretty much the standard (not much different from the mirepoix you'd find when you open a box of fish sticks and that little package falls out of the box)--finely diced shallots, capers, cornichons and parsley.

[cjsadler]

Chef,

Is a liquor license in the future of Colorado Kitchen? (I do like your soda selection, though)

Chris

[Gillian Clark]

2) You fry as well as anyone I've ever seen.  Would you mind talking about the art of frying?  And if you don't consider it an art, what makes you so talented at it?  At the minimum, you must treat it with an enormous respect, or perhaps you just do it second-nature and I'm reading too much into it (in which case I have a followup question:  why can't anyone else seem to do it like you can?)

.

Frying?

I had no idea it was so difficult for some. But I guess many people have soggy results. I have been obsessed with frying since I was a kid. My father had this ancient Dormeyer deep fryer with a frayed and sparking cloth cord that got plugged in to get good and hot for donuts. I guess, aside from the preliminary preparation of soaking in buttermilk, or egg wash & seasoned flour, oil temperature is really important. 350 is ideal and be brave enough to let it stay in there and fry. Clean oil is also key. Oil that is dirty or just old does not fry well. I've heard that Paul Prudhomme has a system in his place that changes the oil every hour...not filters, changes.

We take it very seriously at Colorado Kitchen (the fryer is one of my favorite pieces of equipment). We use a separate fryer for the donuts with a special oil.

Like so much in this business, I believe it is more science than art. I've looked in on kitchens where someone was lowering fries into what looked like tar in a basket covered with a net of crispy fried product from last month. Oil is not cheap...that 35# tub is about $20 to $25 wholesale. I suppose its an expense and labor issue. It takes me about an hour and a half to clean my fryer.

I could go on and on about this topic. Frying well is hard and really separates the caring cooks from the ones who just don't give a hoot. I've seen and heard of double dipping and holding way too long. And if you are frying nothing but frozen product that ice lowers the temperature...so now you're frying at 250. Overloading the basket is also a bad thing...but very tempting to some.

Gotta take the kids to camp...I'll be back.

Gillian

[iamthestretch]

Welcome, Chef, and many thanks from one of your nearby neighbors for choosing to set up where you did. I'm curious -- since I think I read somewhere that your place was only the second sit-down restaurant to open in Ward 4 in over two decades -- what your thoughts are on the realities of running a food business in an underserved area versus the usual downtown and suburban hotspots.

I presume that a little-known location can=lower cost base=more freedom, but can also=more risk of never finding a clientele. Do you have an idea of how much of your business is based in the neighborhood versus 'destination' business drawn in from elsewhere by your good reviews and word of mouth? And, with the Tivoli redevelopment in Columbia Heights and the ongoing Georgia Avenue Partnership efforts, do you think there's room for a few more good independent restaurants on our side of the park? I sure hope so.

PS: What's all the digging next door to your place about? Is that Dasto-related?

[Gillian Clark]

To answer Chris' question about the liquor license. Yes, we just did all of that wacky paperwork and turned it all in. So around Oct. 1st you can enjoy a glass of wine or microbrew with your burger at the CK.

[Gillian Clark]

Hello IATstretch,

I hadn't a clue that we were the second sit-down to open in Ward 4 when we started this project in January of 2000. I was renting a house around the corner and knew about the hundreds of bullet proof carryouts in the neighborhood that slipped menus in my mailbox. My daughter's and I moved from across the park and were always able to find a place not far for the Sunday dinner out (my night off). No place near the new house except for that McDonalds on Georgia Avenue. I saw the space months before the for rent sign came in the window and wondered if it was indeed a failed restaurant.

The rent was so low, we could afford major renovations and it fit two other criteria. There was a basement and no second floor (new plumbing and ventilation are easier to install that way).

I am also not ashamed to admit that I am a chicken. I would never have the guts to open my first place in Georgetown, Downtown, or Adams Morgan. I wanted to be the only game in town. I wanted to stick out like a sore thumb.

We were lucky, however. Because this can be a good and bad thing. The early press coverage was great and got us over the first couple of weeks. I noticed early on that we could not survive on the business and potential customers within walking distance. Many of them are accustomed to the way things were for 20 years and don't mind the carryouts...in fact they prefer it. We needed business from surrounding neighborhoods.

I may have been wrong to locate so off the beaten path. In the beginning we loaded up my daughters with flyers and dropped them off around Carter Barron, up 16th Street, up and down Longfellow and Kennedy. This helped a great deal. But we were not out of the woods. We hung on because we knew we would be reviewed. I had been reviewed at Evening Star, Broad Street Grill, and at Mrs. Simpson's (days before I was fired). I was on the critic's radar. Good or bad, we needed more press. After Tom's review in November and a couple of notices in Washingtonian Magazine we were on our way. But we also had the product to follow it up. We may not have handled the crowds as adeptly as we should have (young staff), but we had great food and no one could tell Tom that he was wrong about the donuts or my Hollandaise....they were amazing.

Nonetheless, if this were my first Chef job I would not be doing Colorado Kitchen. I needed the name and the experience to pull this off. I think the neighborhood didn't really need the restaurant that much at the time we opened. Now more "dining-out" minded people are moving in and the neighborhood is changing. But I don't think more restaurants on Georgia Avenue or 14th Street is the key. Most of the immediate neighborhood population is still very content with the delis and Chinese spots. Much is changing, however. I am anxious to see what happens. All of those new condos and renovated homes are bringing in new people. We see them all of the time and now more and more frequently. I think these people are going to be looking for places to eat. And these are the people that are insulted by the bullet-proof glass that even adorns the Subway on Georgia Avenue.

The hole in the sidewalk out front is not the new swimming pool. It is the Water & Sewer Authority finally responding to Robin's pleas. We've been bailing out a flooded basement after every rain because the storm sewer is over flowing and flooding our basement.

Edited August 2, 2004 by Gillian Clark (log)

[DonRocks]

Thunder. Enter the three witches [Gillian Clark, Carol Greenwood, Ann Amernick].

Double, double, toil and trouble;

Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.

Eye-of-newt and toe-of-frog, wool-of-bat and tongue-of-dog.

How now, you secret, black, and midnight hags!

What is't you do?

Is there a double, double standard towards female chefs in Washington?

Is it fair to ask this foul question?

[Gillian Clark]

Don,

LOL...That's pretty good. But, "Be innocent of the knowledge dearest chuck 'til thou applaud the deed."

I'd hardly consider myself in the leaque with Carol and Ann. Carol opened her first place while I was a young line cook at Cashions. She has much more cheffing under her belt than I have. She had the place on K, then further up town in Cleveland Park, then Greenwood up in the old Indian Place, now Bucks.

I'm really just starting. Carol has always been in that sense my big sister. As cooks we'd heard stories of Carol coming into the dining room and fussing out customers. I always thought that she was just very passionate about what she was trying to do and a little over worked, stressed. She had investors she needed to please and really no one on her side. I got to really know her better when I became friends with a member of her staff at the Cleveland Park store. She can be demanding and abrasive...but aren't we all to some degree. She feels she needs things a certain way for them to work for her, for her to be successful. And she has always had more people to answer to than I've had.

Ann Amernick is a different story. She always held this aura for all of us. When she came to do pastry at Cashions we rolled out the red carpet for her. It was not long before we all started calling her TGO (The Great One). She also has really high standards and she does beautiful work. But she works really hard. She jogs a billion miles before work...one morning she fell....her finger was the size of a rolling pin. I told her it was broken. She kept right on working. She became TGO Fe. Say what you will about her being difficult, I have a lot of respect for her.

At Bucks, with the new management (James) Carol has someone working with her that knows her and can help her channel her energy. I think we all need someone like that. This is a really hard job. We want things to be perfect. And we put that pressure on ourselves 16 hours a day. Not many people do that for a living.

As far as me being a witch or the one that starts with a B. I hardly think so. No one thought that until "the letter" appeared. And then because I was defending Carol for having standards...suddenly I was the black version of Carol Greenwood. Hardly. I explained in the letter to Tom that Carol had standards. Maybe hers are at 12 feet...but mine are probably at 8. I will take the peanuts out of the dessert special if I can. But if I can't, I'll tell you why. I won't tell you to go to Burger King...although that is a phrase mumbled by many a line cook when the waiter reads us the litany of menu exceptions for a allergic, dieting, or picky customer. (I've sung the jingle behind the line when I was cooking).

I wrote that letter to Tom because his chat (which I read often,) was beginning to sound like that consumer show FIGHT BACK...and Carol was the bad company. Sure, I've never witnessed any of the things she allegedly said to upset customers, but I don't doubt that she became visibly upset by some of them. However, people were going to Greenwood to start a fight. I simply tried to explain things from the Chef's point of view.

Some people applauded it. I was not always a Chef. I cooked for my father in law many times and he'd empty the salt on whatever I made before tasting it...that drives me crazy. And I'm sure if I turned my nose at Eunny Jang's chicken with lemon that she has pictured here, she would not just smile at me and take it back to the kitchen and make me a jelly sandwich. We spend hours on concepts and putting things together and honing skills. I can't tell you how many perfectly au poir fish has come back to me in my career. Even my employers at Evening Star just thought I didn't know how to cook duck...."she just can't get it right...it looks so medium rare..." they'd whisper shaking their heads in pity. I publicly shouted at a server who went back to the table and apologized for my Eggs Benedict, "Sorry, she poaches the egg so that it's runny." No, that's what Eggs Benedict is...I didn't invent it.

These are the things we put up with. Yes, I make substitutions...but there is a limit here. We have nothing on our menu above $20...that means numbers are tight. That side of kohlrabi is more expensive than the mashed potatoes...I can't sub it. You get me.

Many took exception to my analogy using Herbert von Karajan and Zubin Mehta. I'm not comparing myself to von Karajan. It was an analogy...(look it up). Why would you hear Mehta conduct the 3rd Symphony of Beethoven? Von Karajan's is much better...he is a better interpreter of Beethoven than anyone. But you go and insist he's playing it incorrectly....shorten those 16th notes the way Karajan would. No he's Mehta...he interprets it differently. That to say that Carol's Pork Chop is not at all like mine. Why go to my place and think it is going to be the same?

Your mother makes the best meatloaf you've ever had. Don't come to CK and expect your mother's meatloaf. And yes...if you scrape off the mushroom sauce, I will roll my eyes. And when you pour a bottle of ketchup on it, I will sigh. I won't stop you. But my open kitchen is a blessing and a curse. I see everything.

But why can't Carol, Ann and I call ourselves von Karajan? I can't see why even the misinterpretation of my analogy angers so many. I am the Herbert von Karajan of what I do. Herb was great, don't get me wrong. His crab cakes aren't nearly as good as mine. He could not make Hollandaise to save his life (sorry). And he'd slap his mother after eating my shrimp and grits. Would you eat at my place if I didn't feel that way? Now...I can't lead an orchestra. But I am von Karajan at what I do everyday. And he would think so too.

What all of us have in common is we believe we are the best at what we do. If I can't cook something perfectly...it is not on my menu. I become an expert at it. I work and work until it is perfet. There is a lot of trial and error in this business. And when you learn how to pronounce it perfectly, nothing is more irritating than someone telling you with their bottle of ketchup that you've got it all wrong. That's all its a feeling. Some of us act on it. You can put whatever you want to the food when it hits your table. Back in the kitchen with me, its mine.

I care about the food....how it looks and how it tastes. Beware the chef that says, "Sure, I've got a bottle of ketchup back here...let me pour it over everything I'm about to serve you." Would'nt you rather have me back in the kitchen putting it all together? Certainly if you're on Atkins or lactose intolerant, I'll take care of you. But an extra steak (this happened) instead of mashed potatoes....NO. And I don't make grilled cheese sandwhiches for kids no matter how much you beg. My daughters are 11 and 14. They eat what I eat when we go out. How dare you have the steak and give them grilled cheese? They have to learn to eat green beans and spinach and real food eventually. Don't they? If you're not interested in making them have the dining out experience too, get a babysitter.

Now do any of you really disagree with what I've said? I don't think its that far in left field.

Just that Ann and Carol and Gillian have standards. All chef's do. Some are higher than others. There are lines that each of us have drawn in the sand to make the business work for us. Mine is not nearly as far out as all of you think. But because we are women, I guess we are not to have a line at all. Bet you know where Gerard's and Yannick's lines are. And at $30 for a plate I'd let you have a little truffle oil on your chicken breast.

Does that answer it for you, Rocks?

[Gillian Clark]

Will Burnham Wood invade Dunsinane?

[hillvalley]

Chef, I wonder if you could elaborate more on diners with allergies and making sure your creations will not make them sick.

This weekend I dined with a group of fellow eGers at a steak house in Arlington. One member of our group has very severe allergies to common ingredients such as garlic. She called ahead and spoke with the chef so they could work together to make sure she had a wonderful meal (which she did) and he did not have to scramble to fit her needs. Apparently, she regularly contacts chefs before dining at their restaurants to ensure they both find the encounter enjoyable.

My question is two fold. First, what do you think of her practice of calling ahead to colaborate with the chef and second, how would you prefer customers with food allergies handle such situations?

Edited August 3, 2004 by hillvalley (log)

[JPW]

Chef Gillian,

Thank you for your extensive response to Don's question. While I am still processing it, another thought came to mind.

Don, although our great and kindly forum host, failed to provide a biography that might give us a better idea of what kitchens you worked your way through.

More importantly to me, what are the personal roots of the food you make today?

You have previously mentioned that you were from NY. Is this the source of your cooking direction?

Thanks.

Joe Willey

PS- I, too, have done my fair amount of muttering at special orders. The main exception was the guy who always wanted double bacon and double butter in his carbonara. I guess a half a stick of butter and about 4 oz of bacon weren't enough for him.

[FunJohnny]

Second the motion for a bio. You mentioned the Broad Street Grill -- a place that opened to such great expectations and that has now sunk to a non-descript road house. Were you the first chef there?

[MCJB2]

Thanks for doing this chat Gillian, it is very interesting. Colorado Kitchen is one of my very favorite restaurants in DC. There are few chef-driven restaurants in this area that are as reasonably priced as Colorado Kitchen. Do you see yourself doing Colorado Kitchen long into the future, or do you have aspirations to open up other restaurants and try other things?

[iamthestretch]

Yeah, that's what I want to know, too. Say Ritz-Carlton called tomorrow and said: "Italian's so over. We're having Fabio deported for Patriot Act violations involving suspicious panna cotta. The room's yours, the budget's essentially unlimited and you can hire anyone you want for crew." What would Maestress serve?

[Gillian Clark]

My question is two fold.  First, what do you think of her practice of calling ahead to colaborate with the chef and second, how would you prefer customers with food allergies handle such situations?

Good evening folks,

Sorry for the delay today. My oldest was performing at a National Night Out in SE. We're just getting back. And ah me...my two days off end tonight. To answer your question Hill, I often have people call me and tell me they have a wheat, an onion, a garlic allergy. There are some things that we can change or I can do something (an alteration) to accommodate that. I am lactose intolerant and allergic to raw apples and pears (they spray something on them)...so I am sympathetic to that. I think it is a good idea to call the chef at least 2 days in advance during a time that won't be busy...say 10 am. And if he or she agrees to take care of you, be sure and show up. I've heard many stories where a chef has prepared a special meal for a party in a similar case to your friend's and the party didn't even call to cancel. That ruins it for everyone.

[Gillian Clark]

More importantly to me, what are the personal roots of the food you make today?

You have previously mentioned that you were from NY. Is this the source of your cooking direction?

Joe,

I mentioned before also, that I am a second career chef. In 1981, I entered Johns Hopkins in Baltimore in the pre-med program. After a year of that I changed my major to English and graduated to a job teaching English at St. Albans. I then went into the publising business and was Editor of Apartment Shoppers Guide. That led me to working with associations and eventually landing in promotional communications. It is a tough business because you never really see results and are sure stuff is working. I always cooked for fun and to entertain.

I was given The Chez Panisse cookbook as a gift and years later when I finally got Alice Waters to sign it for me. She opened and saw the wine and stock and duck fat stains all over it. She laughed. "Have you been using this and cooking?" She looked at me like I was crazy. In fact I had been cooking with that book for years.

I made a great deal of money in those days and was able to charge my tuition to L'academie on my Amex Platinum. I had left the Association world and had closed the door on my own promotional firm that was really on the brink of success. I wanted to be in the food business. I didn't really have an idea what. I thought maybe I'd stay out of the kitchen and have a farm. Raise exotic fowl, and foie gras geese.

I figured I needed to know something about the way kitchens worked. So I took a job for $5 an hour at the Prince Michel Vineyard Restaurant with Alain Lecomte. Great chef...terrible temper. It was hell just learning to stand for eight hours. But it was incredible training. I turned vegetables all day. Perfectly (after about two weeks) seven sided carrots, potatoes, squash. When it wasn't perfect Chef took my pile and put it in the soup. But often I would look and see that the guy that was eviscerating squab with me was straight out of the Michelin book. That was pretty exciting stuff for my first job.

Then I went to work for Susan Lindeborg. I learned a great deal in the Morrison Clark kitchen. She has great food knowledge and appreciation. There isn't anything edible on this planet (and perhaps some others) that Susan doesn't know how to cook. She left the M-C and I left shortly after to open Cashions.

Opening a restaurant is a discipline. Everyone should do one before they open their own. Not everything goes as planned and you have to be able to respond. You'll notice that almost all of Ann's original staff has their own place. Cashion's was a great lesson in operating a place.

I treated all of these jobs as grad school. Part of my education. You have to be a sponge and watch and absorb and remember.

I became opening chef at Evening Star on Ann's recommendation. And it was a trial by fire. We were so busy right away and the staff was not at all what I expected. No young cooks fresh out of cooking school. Instead they were a rag tag bunch, substance abusers, people on the edge. I had to teach one guy how to cook pancakes. But we were able to pull it together most nights. I was so overworked and underpaid. And the servers treated me like dirt. I was miserable. They knew that a young chef on the brink of success will work 90 hours a week to make a success of the place, and they took advantage of that.

I left there (pretty much on the brink of a nervous breakdown) and opened Broad Street Grill. Yes it was a much different place then. Put it was terribly managed and they could not make money. I was seduced by the folks at Mrs. Simpson's and left.

I thought Mrs. Simpsons was going to get me my James Beard Nomination. I was doing food like seared breast of duck in a red currant sauce with parsnips (pureed, deep fried, and in tiny turnovers). When you have a customer base willing to pay $25 and $30 for a plate you can do wonderful things. And they expect that and aren't too timid to try it. But the new owner (a regular at the Prime Rib) did not like my food (go figure). Right after New Years, he fired me. Then he couldn't hire a chef or manager that was stealing from him and he had to sell the place.

When he handed my final check that morning and escorted me out of the kitchen that in such a short time I had grown to love, I had determined that I needed to open my own place. I had seen the store that is now Colorado Kitchen. That day I got all of the paperwork from the DCRA and got on the phone. The space just spoke to me. It had to be CK...which is basically Aunt Jemima's bandana in 3 dimensions. Something simple. With food I grew up eating pretty much....Betty Crocker gone to Cordon Bleu I suppose.

I spent much of my days before cooking school working with cook books and recipes and when I was a kid watching my father. I grew up in Great Neck so Jewish things like latkes and knish make cameo appearances.

I'm first generation American. So I know my parents read Better Homes and Gardens to find recipes and learn to cook things with American food stuffs. I ate a lot of rice as a kid and I did not visit a McDonalds until I was 19. There were none in Great Neck (town ordinance).

I owe a great deal to my father. I watched him do things like sweat the onions, reduce sauces...not really knowing until cooking school what all that was about, only that it had to be done. My mother has this great sense of adventure. We were in Jamaica one vacation (something special considering there was 7 of us and we were not a wealthy family) and with all of us piled in that little rent a car my mother studied her worn, dog-eared tour book with a map. And we drove for miles up a mountain to buy AUTHENTIC jerk chicken from this woman standing over a split open drum cooking the stuff over burning wood. She was listed in the tour book as a descendant of the originators of Jerk. There she was in a floor print house dress, in her bare feet with a tin shack behind her. That was the best Jerk Chicken I've ever had and I'll never forget that day.

Edited August 4, 2004 by Gillian Clark (log)

[hjshorter]

And I don't make grilled cheese sandwhiches for kids no matter how much you beg. My daughters are 11 and 14. They eat what I eat when we go out. How dare you have the steak and give them grilled cheese? They have to learn to eat green beans and spinach and real food eventually. Don't they? If you're not interested in making them have the dining out experience too, get a babysitter.

Right on!

Do you have a specific kid's menu, or do you offer small portions of regular menu items? Most children's menus are so disgusting that we often order an adult entree and split it between our children.

[Gillian Clark]

Do you see yourself doing Colorado Kitchen long into the future, or do you have aspirations to open up other restaurants and try other things?

I really would like to do some other things and I drive all over town with my head out of the window looking for new spots. We've been approached. Nothing fits what is going on in my head right now. I'd say I have three concepts that I'm working on and hoping to develop. Colorado Kitchen is what it is and I don't suppose it will get any bigger or expand or have another location. If I had a spot downtown it would be something else. But I can't slave behind that stove much longer. I've just turned 41.

I fantasize about the day where I can walk around in a chef coat and not get it dirty and leave by 8, or change my chef coat and go see how the staff is doing at the fine dining store. We're not there yet.

I never intended to go to medical school (don't tell my mother) I really wanted to be a writer. I still write short fiction in my spare time. I'm taking my laptop with me on vacation. I'd like to finish a book I've started (I have a full 2 sentences). I have sort of an Erma Bombeck/cook book thing going on.

[Gillian Clark]

Yeah, that's what I want to know, too. Say Ritz-Carlton called tomorrow and said: "Italian's so over. We're having Fabio deported for Patriot Act violations involving suspicious panna cotta. The room's yours, the budget's essentially unlimited and you can hire anyone you want for crew." What would Maestress serve?

You're a funny guy, Stretch, please come by my window when you're in CK next. I would probably do the food I was doing at Mrs. Simpson's. I was serving Sea Bass and Foie Gras. I like playing to that crowd. But the simple food still speaks to so many I would have to include my upscale variations of Americana. Maybe garnish a few things with finely shredded spam (just kidding).

I often serve foie gras with the duck at CK and people just push it to the side. Makes me want to cry...that lobe of foie gras costs me $45. Duck is a hard sell at CK, the meatloaf and roasted chicken are the safe bets. Many first timers want to play it safe. However, many of the regulars trust me enough to go for the gusto when I change the menu (about every 4 weeks).

I also did some pretty cool stuff at Broad Street: veal sweetbreads, shiitake crusted lamb chops. I had fun...I did this one that makes me laugh...I always had a quail small plate. One day I had just sharpened my knife and had an extra 5 pounds of shallots. So I sliced them all razor thin, caramelized them then stuffed the bird with it. What a hit!!! I could do no wrong. The next night I made a chowder with shrimp stock and potatoes and cream. Stuffed the quail with scallops. The chowder was the sauce. I called it New England Surf & Sky...the crowd went wild. I'd do food like that.

[Gillian Clark]

[Do you have a specific kid's menu, or do you offer small portions of regular menu items? Most children's menus are so disgusting that we often order an adult entree and split it between our children.

We "Kid Size" three items on the dinner menu for the kiddies. But we also have an extensive list of what we call small foods. I do a kid size of the meatloaf, roasted chicken and a seafood....shrimp or the salmon. Once we kid sized the monkfish.

[DonRocks]

Do you have a specific kid's menu, or do you offer small portions of regular menu items?  Most children's menus are so disgusting that we often order an adult entree and split it between our children.

Go to this link, then click on "Dinner," and you'll see the web listings of the kid's menu.

Now, about those corner pieces...

Chef Gillian here.

[Edit: This chat was originally supposed to be only two days long, but Gillian is having so much fun that she has agreed to let it ride through Thursday aftenoon (after which time she's going to be swamped with her restaurant), so please get your questions in today if possible.]

[JennyUptown]

I'm enjoying this chat a lot, Chef...except for the fact that you keep answering the questions that come to my mind before I can ask 'em.

I was going to compliment your writing (still can, I suppose) when you mentioned your past (and future) lives.

I was going to ask how frequently you update the menu...and now I know. Is the "every four weeks or so" a wholesale change or, say 50/50?

I understand what you are aiming for re: not making grilled cheese sandwiches for the kiddos...but I can also imagine one kid in a surly mood plus one or two parents who are just pleased to be out of the house for a great meal...not even then, Chef?? I think of my moody six year old godchild as I ask this. She is generally a well-behaved kid, but once in awhile...the monster in her bubbles to the surface.

[Gillian Clark]

I was going to ask how frequently you update the menu...and now I know.  Is the "every four weeks or so" a wholesale change or, say 50/50?

I understand what you are aiming for re: not making grilled cheese sandwiches for the kiddos...but I can also imagine one kid in a surly mood plus one or two parents who are just pleased to be out of the house for a great meal...not even then, Chef??  I think of my moody six year old godchild as I ask this.  She is generally a well-behaved kid, but once in awhile...the monster in her bubbles to the surface.

Hi Jenny,

Well, we've seen many of these kids in CK. My 11 year old can be one of them (she hates being handed a kid's menu with crayons now by the way) I just don't think any of the kids meals like grilled cheese, hot dog, and the like are nutritionally balanced. I am appalled by the lack of vegetables that appear on kids menus. This has created a whole population of adults that don't eat the beautiful green beans we serve at Colorado Kitchen.

My strategy with the kids was always to reward good behavior and start at home. We ate at the dinner table and we ate real food. I didn't serve grilled cheese for dinner so they never thought of it as dinner (does that make sense). The girls had to sit in their seats eat (not always clean their plate, but eat just about all of it and all of the vegetables). Then they got dessert. By the time I was ready to take them out to eat they knew how to behave. Often Sian can not decide and I have to order for her when we go out. When she eats at the restaurant we usually find two or three green beans on the floor. I trade these for fresh ones that she has to sit down and eat. Kids really want to be part of the family and eat with the family. Many of them come in screaming for nuggets and a desperate Mom will "settle" for my kid size roasted chicken. Much to her surprise junior will tear it up. Next thing you know he's dragging her to the restaurant every night and insists on that chicken. I see that more often than you could imagine.

We have a great small foods menu that features a Napoleon of gruyere and VA Ham. Currently on this late summer menu (I change a few things here or there as the seasons change or when I suddenly can no longer get decent Halibut--about every 2-3 weeks) we have a baked manchego. If I were a desperate Mom trying to please a cheese loving child, I'd order the manchego and a side of bisucuits. I'd also order a side of his choice: spinach, green beans, or a salad. Then he can have dessert. Too many folks let them have that ice cream soda first and that's all he eats.

At the dentist recently, I waited in the waiting room with a 16 year old and 14 year old...sisters. Both of them were on their second root canal. YIKES. I had my first one at 38. I wasn't allowed to have soda as a kid. When I did scare up enough change to sneak to the Carvel and order a root beer float it was a rare occasion (maybe twice a year).

I think many parents are doing kids a disservice that they will pay for later as adults. They're children. We have to show them what is right and what is appropriate in the world and in the dining room. It is our duty. I see too many parents that are not up to the challenge. Don't get me wrong. I'm not Joan Crawford or anything--I do dislike wire hangers, though. And I do let my girls tell me their side of it or discuss things with me. But they know the decision is mine. Do parents feel guilty about taking their kids someplace without grilled cheese, maybe. They shouldn't. And is this why they walk into the dining room, Mom, Dad and Junior and ask, "Okay, Junior, where do you want to sit?" Junior, probably in the midst of his Oedipal thing, chooses the little table for two in the corner. Well, now you've already started it. Now you've got to tell him "NO" before you even sit down. Don't leave to much decision making to them. They're children. They really don't want all of that decision making power. They want to know that you are setting limits, boundaries--that you're taking care of things and that they can trust you with their lives.

I could write a book....

Edited August 4, 2004 by Gillian Clark (log)

[Gillian Clark]

I see Don has posted links to our Website. UGH, it was done really fast by a friend and is not up to date. I think I have dreadlocks (long gone) in the picture. The menu is also not current.