Corkage fees

[Wilfrid]

BYO has been discussed on a number of threads, and I'd be interested in learning more about the practicalities and etiquette. The possible cost-savings are obvious, and, given the frequency with which forty or fifty per cent of my restaurant checks reflect wine consumption, substantial.

But I have some questions. The answers probably vary from location to location; I am unashamedly interested in how it works in New York, but I hope people feel free to discuss the customs in other locations.

1. Always call ahead to confirm the restaurant will permit BYO, right? But, if you're sure a restaurant does permit it, is there any need to tell them in advance that that's what you plan to do?

2. I assume one will normally be asked to pay corkage. What range of corkage charges should one expect?

3. Steve Plotnicki has said that he doesn't believe sommeliers object to BYO. I am concerned about the waitstaff in general; isn't it going to reduce their gratuity?

4. Why isn't everyone doing it? What are the down sides?

[cabrales]

In addition to Wilfrid's questions, the following lines of inquiry would be interesting to me:

5. If one is bringing a "fairly good", but not excellent, wine to a well-regarded restaurant, would the dining room team members look upon that BYO gesture differently than if one were bringing something extraordinary?

6. Apparently, it is poor etiquette to bring a wine that is available on the restaurant's wine list. I assume that the same vintage would be required before that becomes an issue. Also, how would one know, with many wines, whether they would be available on the list of a restaurant not previously visited?

7. Steve P appears to bring "back up" bottles sometimes to a restaurant. Is that a customary practice in BYO-land in NY? Would it be appropriate to bring a bottle of white and a bottle of red, and only open one, depending on what dishes one picked as, say, a solo diner?

8. How are demi-bouteilles, magnums, etc. charged with respect to corkage? Would it be poor etiquette to bring a magnum for a larger dining party in hopes of paying the same corkage as a regularly-sized bottle?

9. What bottle-carriers do members utilize? Is it more appropriate to have an inconspicuous carrier or to have a more stylish one? Are the carriers checked with coats and bags, or does one typically bring them to the table?

[Wilfrid]

Cabby raises a very good question. What if one weren't bringing special wines, but just average, everyday drinking wines, simply to avoid paying the mark-up. Does that look bad?

[Adam Balic]

Corkage can be steep, make sure wine is worth more then corkage. Different places have different practices. On place in Melbourne would charge every person in the group $5 if even one person brought a bottle of wine (their way of saying that they didn't like BYO).

A real advantage of corkage is that you can drop off the wine beforehand and get it decanted for you so that it will be ready for the meal.

If you are concerned about the sommeliers, then tip them. Sometimes they can get a little over excited if you bring in something very good/rare. I had the experience of having a sommelier hovering around our table on the chance he would get a taste of the wine we had bought. Very annoying.

Sometimes a good idea to bring a special bottle or two, but to also order the restaurants wine.

Often when you ring up to ask they will say, "no we don't do BYO, as there is no need as we have a very good selection of wine". In this case, if you wanted to bring something special then you ask them if they have any 1889 Constantine Muscat, or whatever you were thinking of bringing. If they don't then try to force the issue.

I like BYO, another great Australian invention.

[Adam Balic]

Cabby raises a very good question.  What if one weren't bringing special wines, but just average, everyday drinking wines, simply to avoid paying the mark-up.  Does that look bad?

Yes, we call the being "cheap".

[cabrales]

Cabby raises a very good question.  What if one weren't bringing special wines, but just average, everyday drinking wines, simply to avoid paying the mark-up.  Does that look bad?

Yes, we call the being "cheap".

What might the threshold for the retail price, at the time the wine is brought to the restaurant, of a bottle be before it might be appropriate to BYO (assuming there is such a threshold)?

[Wilfrid]

Adam, you jogged my memory. BYO is pretty universal in Australia, isn't it? And I can see that corkage might negate the strategy you correctly identify as "being cheap".

[Adam Balic]

Wilfrid - BYO is becoming less common in Australia . Restaurants stand to gain to much by having a licence. Still at least it doesn't have the criminal mark ups that I have seen in the UK.

Cabrales - depends on the resturant. Cheap restaurant = cheap wine, Expensive restaurant = rare or special wine.

[rich]

I basically follow a few "rules" for BYO:

I always call first and ask.

I always bring the wines in an attractive container (I have a cold wrap for sparkling and/or white) and give it to the hostess/host when I arrive with decanting instructions if needed; and I remind the person I called.

I only bring unavailable, more expensive selections.

I always offer the wine steward a taste.

I always tip a 25% minimum when I BYO.

A $25 corkage fee is fair in NYC.

[GordonCooks]

I basically follow a few "rules" for BYO:

I always call first and ask.

I always bring the wines in an attractive container (I have a cold wrap for sparkling and/or white) and give it to the hostess/host when I arrive with decanting instructions if needed; and I remind the person I called.

I only bring unavailable, more expensive selections.

I always offer the wine steward a taste.

I always tip a 25% minimum when I BYO.

A $25 corkage fee is fair in NYC.

I think this could be put on a stone tablet

[lizziee]

We always bring our own wine. My husband has an extensive cellar and it just is not possible to taste all this wonderful stuff, exclusively at home.

1. In a restaurant that we are going to for the first time, we always ask their corkage policy. Normally, corkage is $25. per bottle. In restaurants that we go to frequently, the corkage is normally waived.

2. Very few sommeliers or waiters object to BYO, but we tip the waitstaff as if we had bought wine from their list. The sommelier and waitstaff still has to decant the wine, when applicable, serve the wine, make sure glasses are filled correctly etc. The object, for us, of bringing our own wine is a desire to taste what we have, not to try to have a less expensive meal. We also generally tip the sommelier as well.

3. I think it is in poor taste to bring a vin ordinaire to an upscale, fine dining restaurant. If the restaurant is serving fine dining cuisine then the obvious match in wine is an exclusive, fine dining type wine. For example, Sunday night we brought the following wines:

'89 Bollinger Champagne

'98 Batard-Montrachet, Francois Bouard

'75 Caymus Cabernet Sauvignon Special Selection

On Saturday night, we brought the following:

1995 Billecart Salmon Cuvee Elisabeth

2000 Puilly Fume from Didier Dageneau.

1993 Chambolle Musigny by Rion.

4. We often bring back up wines. We were not sure how the '75 Caymus would "drink" so we had a back-up in case. We didn't need a back-up and took the unopened bottle back with us.

5. We have 3 basket carriers, one which holds 6 bottles, another holding 4 and another holding 3. When we enter a restaurant, the maitre d' will take our basket and he will carry it to the table.

6. Like rich, we always offer tastes to the sommelier and if we know the waitstaff well are more than willing to share.

7. Sometimes, my husband will fax the chef the wines we are planning on bringing. As we most always have a tasting mneu, this lets the chef know in advance what kind of dishes to prepare. If we don't fax ahead of time, the sommelier or waiter will often tell the chef what we have brought so dishes are appropriate. We also always offer to send back a glass of wine to the chef.

[Rail Paul]

We have a wicker two bottle carrier, which has a nifty device which allows the bottles to remain at a 45 degree angle on the table if that is desired.

In NJ, where wine and liquor licenses are both expensive and rationed, a few additional rules apply. Note that BYO is very common, and calling ahead is advised.

1. House may not legally charge a corkage fee (often flouted).

2. Staff is not supposed to open or pour bottles (widely flouted)

3. Wine or beer only, no hard stuff (also widely flouted)

4. If the town prohibits alcohol (Ocean Grove, for example), BYO may also be prohibited.

Some restaurants have brief BYO periods while the license changes hands, which may take a few weeks. Local town councils typically serve as the ABC licensing entity, and usually require a reading, public comment period, vote at the next meeting etc.

[Beachfan]

1.  Always call ahead to confirm the restaurant will permit BYO, right?  But, if you're sure a restaurant does permit it, is there any need to tell them in advance that that's what you plan to do?

2.  I assume one will normally be asked to pay corkage.  What range of corkage charges should one expect?

3.  Steve Plotnicki has said that he doesn't believe sommeliers object to BYO.  I am concerned about the waitstaff in general; isn't it going to reduce their gratuity?

4.  Why isn't everyone doing it?  What are the down sides?

1) If you are sure, no need. I never mention in advance, although I usually inquire about permission (always in NYC, more to find out the corkage in California).

2) $15 - $25 is common, with $15 or less being cheap. Jean Georges is $75 (which I paid happily, since I just really want an option).

3) I have never had anyone act sullen because they thought they were getting a lower tip. The excitement Adam reported is not uncomon. I usually give a taste to someone on staff, and if I have enough wine, to several (sommellier, chef, waiter).

If it's a rare wine, then usually one taste, to the chef or sommelier. If it's just a very good wine, then I try to give some to the waiter.

4)Too much bother? Insecurity? The down sides are very minimal, even when traveling. I suppose the biggest down side is agitating the wine. I once brought a 1977 Fonseca to Fleur de Lys a day in advance to let it settle

4)

[Beachfan]

In addition to Wilfrid's questions, the following lines of inquiry would be interesting to me:

5. If one is bringing a "fairly good", but not excellent, wine to a well-regarded restaurant, would the dining room team members look upon that BYO gesture differently than if one were bringing something extraordinary?

6. Apparently, it is poor etiquette to bring a wine that is available on the restaurant's wine list. I assume that the same vintage would be required before that becomes an issue. Also, how would one know, with many wines, whether they would be available on the list of a restaurant not previously visited?

7. Steve P appears to bring "back up" bottles sometimes to a restaurant. Is that a customary practice in BYO-land in NY? Would it be appropriate to bring a bottle of white and a bottle of red, and only open one, depending on what dishes one picked as, say, a solo diner?

8. How are demi-bouteilles, magnums, etc. charged with respect to corkage?  Would it be poor etiquette to bring a magnum for a larger dining party in hopes of paying the same corkage as a regularly-sized bottle?

9. What bottle-carriers do members utilize? Is it more appropriate to have an inconspicuous carrier or to have a more stylish one? Are the carriers checked with coats and bags, or does one typically bring them to the table?

5) I would expect them to be friendly and caring of the wine, but not have the excitement that happens when they see something extraordinary. And I don't think the excitement is because they may get a taste, it's because they know you are likely to have a fabulous time.

6) I don't think it's poor ettiquette. Some restaurants have policies that it shouldn't be on the list, they are in the minority. I have done so, mostly because I don't bother to look into it. I've never had that be a problem (including at Jean Georges (for $75, there shouldn't be a problem).

7) Steve P, is that where you live? Does that make you a BYOnian? I bring backup if I'm a little worried about whether the wine is over the hill, or if I'm with other BYOers and not sure what they are bringing or sometimes just in case we want to drink more. It's certainly fine to bring a white and a red, and then decide.

8) Often half bottles are half corkage but not nessarily. I accept whatever they do, occasionally I inquire. The bringing of a magnum solely to pay less corkage seems bad etiquette, after all, a restaurant with a corkage policy is being fair. However, in practice, how would they know the reason you are bringing it?In any case, the extra premium magnums usually get outweigh any corkage savings, so I think it's sort of moot.

9) They tend to be black insulated ones. Perfect for those diners already in urban black. My friend just got a leather one, very stylish and tasteful. I bring them to the table (or leave the carrier in the car if it's only one bottle).

I bring wine that is suitable for the level of restaurant and occassion. That can range from a rare wine at a top restaurant to a rare wine at a neighborhood restaurant for a wine dinner with friends to a Cotes du Rhone for a midweek bite at a neighborhood place. I

n fact, I've brought a couple of low end, but exceptional for the price wines to a very nice restaurant that I'm well known at (Jannasse Cote du Rhone Village 2000, Allegrini Palazzo delle Torre 1997). I share a lot, and they consider getting them on their wine lists since they are always looking out for fabulous less expensive bottles.

[Fat Guy]

I look at this very differently depending on the type of restaurant in question:

For a restaurant that doesn't serve wine, obviously you have to bring your own if you're going to drink wine.

In a restaurant with a crappy wine list, I consider it reasonable to want to bring good wine. If there is a small fee to offset lost profits, that's fine with me.

In a restaurant with a decent wine list, I think one should only bring wines that are better than those on the list or that have special importance. And one should be prepared to pay $25 or more, depending on the restaurant's caliber.

Assuming a fine-dining restaurant with an extensive wine list, I believe corkage should be invoked rarely. These restaurants devote immense resources to building wine collections, training their staffs regarding the list, considering what goes well with their cuisine, etc., and if not handled properly it is as insulting to bring your own wine as it would be to bring your own dessert. I'd only do it with a special anniversary wine, a rare specimen, or something on that order. And I'd be prepared to pay handsomely for the privilege -- and I think privilege is the operative word.

Of course if you're a regular customer and you're nice about it, you probably won't be charged the corkage fee.

[Beachfan]

if not handled properly it is as insulting to bring your own wine as it would be to bring your own dessert. .

Hmmmm. Since, in general, they seem to welcome me warmly with open arms and show general interest (from the chef down to the waiter), I should assume they are faking it and are really insulted?

I'm not sure how it would be handled poorly, unless one had such a boorish style as to cause problems no matter what they did with wine.

[rich]

Steven - I agree with you for the most part but would add another criterium. Some restaurant mark-ups are in the stratosphere - 300% and better.

At that point it's simply oenophile rape. I have no problem BYO when dining at an establishment where that type of pricing policy is in effect.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I have been involved in countless debates on this topic on various wine chat rooms so I have been able to hone my position into a definitive one .

1. BYO is a service issue. The BYO customer is a rare breed that is in a different class than other customers. His/her goal is to maximize the experience while minimizing the cost. You have to think of it like a special order customer. For me, the issue is making a dinner that would cost $500 a person at a place like Jean-Georges cost $200 because the wines are from my own cellar and I bought them on release.

2. For those of you who are gasping at my arrogance, the reason why I feel entitled to adopt my position is that most or many tables do not drink wine. So there is kind of a huge discrepency in treatment. The restaurant is willing to make zero for alcoholic beverages on the table next to me but at my table they have to make their 350% markup if I want to drink wine and they aren't happy with a reasonable corkage fee. Sorry but that doesn't compute.

3. The fee for corkage is relative to the amount of service a restaurant gives. If they offer you beautiful Riedel or Spieglass stemware (including the proper glasses based on the grape you are drinking,) decant the wine properly and do a generally good job of wine service all evening, then they should charge you what it costs them (including a profit of course) to provide you with that service. I can't imagine that the entire ritual costs a restaurant very much to offer what I just described. But I usually find $25 a bottle to be reasonable.

The thing about BYO customers is that if a place doesn't allow it, we just don't go there very often. I very much enjoy Daniel but I haven't been in two years because they don't allow it (I'm going for my anniversary next month.) But if they did allow it I would go all the time. So restaurants that don't allow it are losing customers. And since the customer who gets the table instead of me might only drink coca cola, the logic never made any sense to me. But of course it is the restaurants perogative to offer BYO. If they don't want to, c'est la vie. But I really think it's silly if they don't. They are better off with my corkage than having someone drink coca cola

[Wilfrid]

An excellent point, which hadn't occurred to me. So the response to a restaurant which declines BYO is to say, "But it's okay if I don't drink any wine?" Can't argue with that.

I accept what you say about BYO being a special breed - I think that's likely true. But I am still surprised more people don't do it, just in reaction to restaurant mark-ups. But since I haven't done it myself...

[Steve Plotnicki]

"I accept what you say about BYO being a special breed - I think that's likely true. But I am still surprised more people don't do it, just in reaction to restaurant mark-ups."

Wilfrid - My wife, who has access to more bottles of wine than the hairs you have on your head (I resisted that one, you should too) is still uncomfortable bringing wine to a restaurant. In fact we fight about it Sometimes I know she's having dinner with a friend and I offer to pick a bottle for her but she refuses, only to buy some third rate Rhone wine at 400% markup. Sheesh.

[rich]

So the question really comes down to this: Why do restaurants feel a 300%-plus mark-up is necessary?

Many friends ask me about restaurant wine prices and my answer is double a wine store price is fair. If it gets above 2 1/2 times retail, I start having some problems.

[Beachfan]

So the question really comes down to this: Why do restaurants feel a 300%-plus mark-up is necessary?

Many friends ask me about restaurant wine prices and my answer is double a wine store price is fair. If it gets above 2 1/2 times retail, I start having some problems.

Double retail is a 300% markup over the restaurant's cost. They buy at wholesale.

That being said, markup isn't the right measure in and of itself. The markup on bottled water is much higer. I think it's the dollar profit that's more the measure. But it isn't even really about that, it's about choice.

[jaybee]

When we want to drink something very good, we BYO (after asking if they accept BYO and what they charge for corkage). For example, at a recent New Years party of eight at a very good Tuscan restaurant, we brought six bottles, all from our cellars: 1 btl. Crystal, a '61 Trotanoy, a '59 Bonne Mares, '61 Calon Segur, '70 Leoville Poyferre, '75 Cos D'estournel, and '75 Margaux. Corkage was $120. Virtually impossible to duplicate from a wine list. On nights when we didn't care as much, and would likely consume maybe a bottle, we'd order something of the list that was reasonable. It's nice to have that option.

I agree with Steve about Daniel. I didn't know that. I haven't been there, but knowing they won't accept BYO gives me reason to pause. I want a wine that is up to the food, but don't want to pay $400 for it when I can have the same one from my cellar that cost me $12 in 1972 to lay down!! (yes, kiddies, the stuff actually cost that way back when).

[tommy]

Wilfrid - My wife, who has access to more bottles of wine than the hairs you have on your head (I resisted that one, you should too) is still uncomfortable bringing wine to a restaurant.

steve, but when she does bring the wine, does she spend more than wilfrid would on food? just wondering.

[Fat Guy]

An excellent point, which hadn't occurred to me.  So the response to a restaurant which declines BYO is to say, "But it's okay if I don't drink any wine?"  Can't argue with that.

Sure you can.

If you whipped out a hunk of cheese before dessert and asked for a plate and some bread, and the restaurant objected on the grounds that it has this big cheese cart that it put together, would it be a persuasive argument for you to say, "But I don't have to order cheese at all, and I'll give you five bucks for the plate and the two minutes it's going to take me to eat this one."

If you came by the restaurant with a Costco apple pie in the afternoon and you said, "Please serve this to us for dessert," and the restaurant objected on the grounds that it bothered to hire a pastry chef, would it be a persuasive argument to say, "But we don't have to order dessert at all."

If you brought your own bottled water . . .

Also, the economics of the situation when expressed this way are false. You have a customer who is clearly willing to spend money on wine, and who values being able to drink wine with the meal. This is not a customer who is going to order no beverage or drink Diet Coke.

Corkage is a very sticky issue for restaurateurs exactly for the reasons Plotnicki cites: It's a balancing act. You don't want to lose Plotnicki's business and Beachfan's business, but at the same time you don't necessarily want too much business like that. Some will conclude that the number of customers exercising the corkage prerogative is so small that it's an acceptable compromise, and of course once a restaurant implements a corkage policy the rules of good customer service indicate that it should be carried out with aplomb. Others will conclude that it's too likely to become a widespread practice. And some will engage in situational corkage, allowing it for valued customers on special occasions but not for strangers and not as a regular thing. Of course, if everybody did it, the restaurant would either go out of business or need to change its approach completely. That's why those who engage in the practice need to do so with discretion and elan, so as not to ruin it for the other members of that small minority. And the minority should keep itself small, lest it become too significant a drain on profitability.

When it's about drinking your anniversary-year wine, it's one thing: Any restaurateur who says no is an asshole. But when it's about beating the restaurant at an economic game, I don't have strong sympathies either way.

These comments limited to the final category I discussed above.