Corkage fees

[Beachfan]

These comments limited to the final category I discussed above.

I look forward to hearing from the unlimited you.

[TCD]

3. The fee for corkage is relative to the amount of service a restaurant gives.

Although corkage fee has some correlation to service provided by the restaurant, the corkage fee should primarily be tied to the mark-up/profit that the restaurant is foregoing by permitting the diner to BYO. I see the formula something like this:

Corkage Fee = (x) Restaurant's Historic Mark-up on Wine per bottle sold, multipled by (y) number of bottles sold per possible tables turned (possible tables based on historic average party sized).

Clause (y) takes into account the number of tables that do not purchase any wine as well as the restaurant's vacancy rate. For restaurants that do signficantly more business on Friday/Saturday than on other nights, it probably makes sense to have a higher corkage fee on the weekend as the restaurant likely sells many more bottles on those evenings as well as a very low vacancy rate.

The level of service provided by the dining establishment should figure into the mark-up on its wine in the first instance which is reflected in clause (x).

[Beachfan]

3. The fee for corkage is relative to the amount of service a restaurant gives.

Although corkage fee has some correlation to service provided by the restaurant, the corkage fee should primarily be tied to the mark-up/profit that the restaurant is foregoing by permitting the diner to BYO. I see the formula something like this:

Corkage Fee = (x) Restaurant's Historic Mark-up on Wine per bottle sold, multipled by (y) number of bottles sold per possible tables turned (possible tables based on historic average party sized).

Clause (y) takes into account the number of tables that do not purchase any wine as well as the restaurant's vacancy rate. For restaurants that do signficantly more business on Friday/Saturday than on other nights, it probably makes sense to have a higher corkage fee on the weekend as the restaurant likely sells many more bottles on those evenings as well as a very low vacancy rate.

The level of service provided by the dining establishment should figure into the mark-up on its wine in the first instance which is reflected in clause (x).

Interesting perspective.

Mine is that the corkage fee should be whatever makes the owner happy to serve me with my wine. It's probably works out to be similar to your financial analysis.

One restaurant near me is doing a great Monday night business with it's "no corkage" night. Fits right in with your comments.

[cabrales]

Wine mark-up considerations remind me of the below thread, which appeared when Basildog began immersion into the board:

http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?s=...&t=4774&hl=wine

[=Mark]

I'm debating whether this thread be nominated the "Number the Paragraph" hall of fame or "Reduce dining experience to an Equation" award...

[jaybee]

If a byo wine turn out to be bad, do you rescind the corkage fee?

[tommy]

If a byo wine turn out to be bad, do you rescind the corkage fee?

no tip.

[MartyL]

One restaurant near me is doing a great Monday night business with it's "no corkage" night

Would you mind sharing the name of this restaurant?

Thanks.

[Beachfan]

One restaurant near me is doing a great Monday night business with it's "no corkage" night

Would you mind sharing the name of this restaurant?

Thanks.

Rustico, in Oak Park, California. Very good Italian food.

[Brian23]

generally I follow the following rules:

1) If I know the restaurant permits corkage, I will just bring a bottle. Also, I will try to research the list in advance so that I do not bring something from a producer that is on the list. For instance, I thinks its bad form to bring a 1985 bordeaux when the restuarant has the 1989 of the same producer. Now if it was a 1961 or 1970, I would find it more acceptable.

2) I'll always offer a glass to at least the somelier and others depending how many are in my party.

3) The hardest decision I always have is deciding what is acceptable to bring. Generally, I try to bring soemthing that I think would cost in excess of $150-200 if it was on the restaurant list. Some of the recent things I have brought to a restaurant are a 1981 Margaux; 1986 Talbott; 1990 Pichon Baron and 1984 Insignia.

4) I normally take the inconspicuous approach and bring the bottle in a small shopping bag.

5) I generally add whatever the corkage fee is to the tip.

6) In NYC, I've generally encountered a $25 fee. However, I would pay more (upto $75) in order to bring a special bottle to a restaurant and avoid being raped on a 3-4 times mark-up. I find it hard to walk into places such as daniel and you look at the list and everything is 3+ times the price that one can find it for with minimal effort. For me, it takes away from the enjoyment of the experience.

[jaybee]

I found that, even more than a Black Card. carrying a bottle of "61 Petrus in my front pants pocket acts like a real chick magnet.

[Fat Guy]

Is that the '61 Petrus or are you just glad to see me?

[cabrales]

It might be useful to have a list of restaurants that allow BYO, with an indication of the usual corkage fee. I'm not well-positioned to provide this list, but thought I would kick it off by including other members' indications (members should check the corkage rates before reliance).

Jean-Georges ($75 fee is a little hefty, but then the right wine for JG should be a hefty wine), Bouley, GT of course, Tasting Room (buy one, BYO one)

Bouley was $35 Corkage.  GT I forget, but it was less, as all Danny Meyer places are ($20?).

Steve P -- Did Eleven Madison charge you corkage (sorry for such a technical question after your description of a special sampling)? If not, is there ordinarily corkage?

Cabrales - They usually charge corkage. I just don't remember what it is right now. I think $30 a bottle.

In recent years I have begun putting down (in my cellar as well as down my gullet) a number of cases of my favorite Burgundy and Bordeaux.   I hardly ever cook at home, and would like to find some restaurants in NYC that would welcome me and a special bottle of wine now and then.  Thus far I've tried the following places, but am looking for more suggestions....

Jean Georges - I called and was informed that the corkage fee was something like $75.00  I decided against bringing wine as the high fee and the tone of voice of the maitre'd led me to believe that I might receive a less than friendly welcome if I brought a bottle.

Tartine - They don't serve alcohol, so there is no corkage.  Great for lesser bottles of wine, but the bistro food and lack of proper stemware precludes me from bringing my higher-end bottles.

Chanterelle - Brought a bottle of 1990 J. Roty Griotte-Chambertin (yum!) and couldn't have been treated better by the waitstaff or sommelier, who shared a taste with us at my request.  I think the corkage was $25.00  I'll return with more wine for a special occasion, although I wasn't all that excited by their food.

Gennaro - $10 corkage and no problems from waitstaff.  Like Tartine, not a place for a high end bottle.

Bouley - Brought a bottle of 1982 Ducru-Beaucaillou St. Julien.  Lukewarm reception from the hostess and waitstaff, and the sommelier said "we had it on the list until a few weeks ago".  Corkage was around $45.  Would probably bring another bottle here as their wine list is pretty limited.

Tasting Room - Haven't brought wine yet, but was told by the owner that it wouldn't be a problem.  Their policy is buy one off their list and bring one free.  They have a great wine list anyway, so all I need to do now is come up with three other people to help me quaff 2 bottles on my next visit.  Any volunteers?

Others - I've brought bottles to a few other top NYC restaurants that don't generally allow BYO.  Exceptions were made due to the fact I was a regular customer and had a special bottle for a special occasion.

Any other places fellow board members may know about would be appreciated.  I am especially looking for finer restaurants and/or places that are genuinely friendly about bringing a great wine.

One more Trotter's question:  Does anyone know their policy as it relates to BYO/corkage?

Sorry to take so long in responding. I called the restaurant and asked. The policy is as follows:

Guests are welcomed to bring their own wine. The corkage fee is $50 per bottle. They will not open any wine that is currently on their wine list.

My own observations --

Blue Hill $30

Craft $25-35 (?)

Union Pacific $30

[cabrales]

I wonder what Japanese restaurants' approaches towards BYO might be. As members know, Chinese restaurants in Chinatown very generally permit BYO and do not charge corkage. Would it be safe to assume that most Korean restaurants do the same?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Look the best an owner of a restaurant should try for is to replace the lost alcohol bill at a table less the cost of goods sold. In a topline place like Aureole where they charge something like $45 a bottle, if I'm a table for 4 with two bottles and I pay $90 for the night, I can't imagine that is far off of what they would have made using that formula. To me the argument that they have a lot of money invested in wine is a red herring. If 2% of the diners BYO, all they have to do is lower their capital investment by 2% and presto.

As for Fat Guys argument about bringing your own cheese, well I'm not buying that argument either. Cheese doesn't have an astronomical cost attached to it. A wheel of the best Camembert is $12. But the average bottle of wine could cost more than $100, or even more than a thousand. Same with other food costs. Nobody brings their own steak because restaurants already have the best steak at a price you are willing to pay. And most of the time they do not have the wine I bring, and if they do, the price is usually astronomical. This recently happened to me at Pipa where I brought an 1985 La Rioja Alta that cost me $70 and the restaurant had it on their list for $200. Now that's exactly why I BYO.

[cabrales]

Steve P -- Other than the restaurants listed in my previous post, are there other restaurants at comparable levels that permit BYO?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I don't like to list them.

[Fat Guy]

If 2% of the diners BYO, all they have to do is lower their capital investment by 2% and presto.

With that understanding of economics, you're a successful businessman? Sure, a restaurant can tolerate a 2% rate of BYO free-riders, just as it can tolerate a certain percentage of customers not buying wine at all. And corkage can even be a win-win situation on a one-time basis if the customer is paying as much or more for the privilege of bringing his own than he would have represented in profit on purchased wine. But eventually if you start looking at higher percentages of BYO customers there comes a point where it's not possible to maintain the beverage program. People who BYO as a lifestyle -- as opposed to a special-occasion thing -- are out to beat the system, plain and simple. But no system can exist where everybody beats it. So the hardcore BYO-er should be thankful to be in what is essentially a subsidized minority.

Nobody brings their own steak because restaurants already have the best steak at a price you are willing to pay.

Only Peter Luger has better steak than Lobel's butcher shop. The reason I don't bring a Lobel's steak to Smith & Wollensky and ask to have it cooked is that I'll get thrown out on my ass.

[cabrales]

Steve P -- Err, why not?

[Fat Guy]

I don't like to list them.

Exactly.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - Of course it's beating the system but the reason why the BYOers want to is that the system is screwy. I can go to Daniel tonight and drink 1982 Latour. That might be on their list for $900. But it happens to be their last bottle. So the next time I go there again about 4 months later, the 1982 Latour is now $1500 because they had to go into the auction market and their cost was $700 a bottle. There is no equivelent of that with steaks. The price change in what a steak costs between one day amd what it costs four months later can only be described as incremental.

[Fat Guy]

That screwy system is what allows restaurants to exist, my free-riding friend.

I also see you've proven once again -- this time through an even more ingenious methodology -- that an expensive bottle of wine costs more than a steak. I fail to see why this matters, but I do agree with both proofs.

[Beachfan]

People who BYO as a lifestyle -- as opposed to a special-occasion thing -- are out to beat the system, plain and simple.

I disagree. Most of the BYOers I know are wine collectors. They want to enjoy their wine. They don't have a collection to take advantage of restaurants. They have a passion for collecting, and sharing their collections with similarly minded friends.

Some collectors are good cooks. Not me. I get great home cooked veggie food, but for anything else, I have to go out. I have a very nice wine collection. It deserves more than tofu.

How many BYOers stop at a store on the way to the restaurant - very few I expect.

I don't see it as taking advantage; I don't see it as anything less than fully consensual on the part of the restaurant. If it isn't, why do they bother? Especially in NYC; it's so easy to say "no", or "only if it's not on our list", or " corkage is $100/bottle".

If I thought a restauranteur thought it in bad taste to bring a bottle, I wouldn't do it. (People in the trade, please jump in!!!) But my experience is usually the opposite.

Of course, there's an economic side. But the profit difference on the wine sale vs. the corkage isn't so great - maybe $20- on wines in the price range I would be buying. And the difference could easily be addressed by $45 dollar corkage (I'm greatful for the option no matter what the price). The difference is I get to drink my pet wine, which happens to be much better than I could afford at restaurant prices.

In any case, many BYOBers in California make it up on bottled water and valet parking.

[cabrales]

Beachfan -- Apart from the restaurants already mentioned in this thread, are you aware of NY restaurants at comparable levels that permit BYO? I do not have a cellar, and might purchase 6-8 bottles from time to time to drink at home and occasionally to bring to restaurants (increasingly so). It's still worthwhile, depending on the wine involved.

[jordyn]

Fat Guy: To the extent that restaurants are not obligated to allow BYO, but offer it anyway, why should one feel guilty about taking them up on their offer, even if only to save money? I think Beachfan's argument is unassailable: the restaurant offers the option, theoretically at a price that it is comfortable with. Perhaps it is appropriate to be grateful for this service, as Beachfan seems to be, but I can't imagine feeling like I'm somehow doing the restaurant a disservice by purchasing one of their offered products.

Should I be similarly reluctant to take advantage of a $20.02 lunch at a fine restaurant in New York, knowing that if they sold all of their meals at similar prices, they might go out of business?