Mayhaw Man gets Mad

[hathor]

If we are talking sink: I vote for the double sink. Drain pasta water on one side, shock vegetables or soak pots on the other side. I love my double sink.

I also really like the pull out faucet for a sprayer. I'm also a fan of the built in dishwashing dispenser..one less thing on the counter, but its kind of a soapy mess when you refill it.

[snowangel]

Was at the cabin when this first appeared.

Good thing, Brooks, that we aren't married. I am also wont to take demo projects past the point of return when my spouse is away. He has no clue what's about to happen to Diana's room. Love my sledge hammer. He now just shrugs his shoulders and gives me the "no time like the present" look.

My sink is double, very deep and one side is a lot bigger than the other. Works just fine. It's that enameled or whatever over cast iron. I've hated every stainless sink I've every had.

My faucet is a Moen Legend Hi-Rise and the second one I've owned. The spout pulls up so you can get really tall stuff under it, and the end of the spout has a thing that pulls out and sprays and swivels. It has been far more reliable than my friends' pull-outs.

Thanks to everyone for flooring advice. I just put in granite countertops and had planned to live with the old kitchen floor for a while, but the counters are so beautiful the floor looks even crappier and uglier than before. So, it's off to shop I go! Took that, yesterday, to a point of no return by ripping some of it out.

[Mayhaw Man]

You rip out a kitchen w/out a plan??? :

Plans are for planners. I am a spontaneous kinda guy. Ask my shrink, she'll tell you.

"Plans? What Plans? We don't have no stinking plans!"

[Mayhaw Man]

And as far as the sink goes, I have made up my mind-but there is some hunting to be done.

We are going to go the antique sink route. I don't know if I can find on e to show you on the net, but I will try. What I am doing is looking in the salvage yards/restoration places for a large, two basin with a drain board on one side. They are very common and not hard to find. I will have it reporcelained and that will be my new sink! I can do all of this for a couple of hundred bucks and get EXACTLY what I want instead of buying new and spending more than I want to get something I am only marginally happy with.

Besides, it will fit the age and style of my kitchen better than most of the ones that I keep looking at over and over again while trying to convince myself that they are worth the money.

[robyn]

You rip out a kitchen w/out a plan???  :

Plans are for planners. I am a spontaneous kinda guy. Ask my shrink, she'll tell you.

"Plans? What Plans? We don't have no stinking plans!"

At least where I live - you need a building permit for construction work that costs more than $500 - and you can't get a permit without plans. Robyn

[Mayhaw Man]

No exterior changes and no changes in utility requirements means no building permit. We have a very well written set of zoning ordinances governing this kind of thing. I live in a very small town that is EXTREMELY protective of the way that it looks and the type of growth that we incur.

Were I making any changes to the exterior I would need a whole litany of permits as I live in a Historic District and my house is on the list to be Landmarked, (through no doing of my own, I might add).

[fifi]

I also need an ice machine, any recs? Needs to make 20 lbs per day plus and can't cost over $1200.

I think I mentioned this up-thread but you were too busy with your sledge hammer.

Check out the GE Monogram. clickety

What I like about it is that it can put out 50 pounds a day and it is the little crystal clear cubes. I have several friends that have them and are in love. (GE Monogram kitchens have become very popular here in upscale homes and patio homes. Great service network as well.)

The fridge looks really good.

[robyn]

No exterior changes and no changes in utility requirements means no building permit. We have a very well written set of zoning ordinances governing this kind of thing. I live in a very small town that is EXTREMELY protective of the way that it looks and the type of growth that we incur.

Were I making any changes to the exterior I would need a whole litany of permits as I live in a  Historic District and my house is on the list to be Landmarked, (through no doing of my own, I might add).

That's curious. Don't you need a building permit and inspections to do extensive interior work which involves things like working with structural walls - rewiring electrical systems - installing new plumbing - etc.? Historical preservation districts serve one purpose (aesthetics) - and building permits and inspections serve quite another (safety). Are you telling me that your town/county/state doesn't care if your house burns up or falls down as long as it looks ok on the outside? Robyn

[Varmint]

Robyn-

Brooks lives in Louisiana. Need I say more? They just do things differently there. Also, if you can do the work for less than a certain dollar amount, the local government doesn't get involved.

Anyhow, this isn't even worth wasting our time on. Brooks comes from a family of lawyers and doctors, and some of them are even honest, too! So let's carry on.

[Mayhaw Man]

Kitchen is coming along. As usual things get bigger as you go along. Moving the laundry room has been both simple (mechanically) and complicated (esthetically) and has taken a week longer than it would have if I wasn't married to an artist. And we ain't done yet!

Kitchen floor should go down on Monday or so (depends on my progress with subflooring on Sat and Sun). I am renting one of those cool flooring nailers like all the hip carpenters have on TV. I can't wait to use that thing!

Wiring should continue to go forward every afternoon for about two or three hours (my helper/electrician has a real job as a contractor and only shows up when I am home and he can boss me around and until the beer runs out). There really isn't very much and as soon as we are done I can get the rock all hung and floated, Robin can paint the walls and that will be that.

As soon as the floor is down I will go buy the appliances (ice box, dw, ice machine) They will be placed and tried out for practicality BEFORE I order the lower cabinets. This might sound strange, but we have decided that this is a brilliant idea and I am sticking with it. We can use the kitchen (as it will be a big open room and easy to move stuff around) and decide on the placement of stuff plus be able to get EXACTLY what we want for cabinet features after we think about it with most of the stuff in place.

THe only permanent lower cabinet that will be going in will be the one that goes along one wall and has the sink in it (which incidentally is going to be a double farmhouse deep sink with a drain board on both sides). The top of that one is a two inch cypress cutting board that has been salvaged from a bar top in the Ninth Ward in New Orleans. I don't really know how old it is, but it is damned old. It looks very good.

The upper cabinets and some pantries are slowly being purchased at salvage places around us on the Gulf Coast. Most of the uppers will be pane front farmhouse style cabinets. Today's score was a nine foot tall drawer and shelving unit that used to be a built in somewhere else. It is very, very nice. She decided that it would be more fun/more practical/less expensive to do it this way and I always support those three things when they are working together .

In real life, money and luck (both currently in less than plentiful supply) included, I should be through in 4 to 6 weeks-excepting lower cabinets which might be a bit longer depending on the cabinet guy.

So that's where I stand. On a torn up floor with the walls ripped out and next to a semi humorless spouse who thinks that I don't move fast enough(she's right, but I like to think about this stuff and besides, a little chaos builds character).

I will post some pictures of all of this junk sometime this week when I get the camera back from my wife.

[Cusina]

I was just thinking about this rehab, wondering how it's coming along. I love the sound of the bar top and the non-traditional cabinets you are hunting up. Hope you're still sane...

[Mayhaw Man]

I was just thinking about this rehab, wondering how it's coming along.  I love the sound of the bar top and the non-traditional cabinets you are hunting up.  Hope you're still sane...

←

I have the day off today and I have spent it working on the house (pretty much how I spend every waking moment since the wind has been up in the Gulf for the last two weeks and fishing has been difficult-but good for those toughing it out).

THe big stopper has been moving the laundry to a new space under the stairs. As this house is very old (110 years or so) and there was a huge addition put on it about 1970, I chose to locate the laundry RIGHT where the old house ties onto the new part-this meant that both wiring and plumbing are, if not difficult, extremely complicated. I finally got through all of that and am now sheetrocking the laundry. I should be finished hanging and floating it today and most of the way through cutting out trim. Because it is located under stairs (it is a big space, but oddly shaped) I had to go to New Orleans and buy three cypress doors at Armadillo South Architectural Salvage and now have to fit them into a custom frame. Not too difficult, really, but very exacting and that will take the remainder of my days off this week.

Once the machines are moved I will float the floor (going on top of the original heart pine, as once I got through the layers, I realized that they are a) too far gone to reuse b) out of plumb by a couple of inches over the length of the room. No big deal, but once again this will take some time.

After the floor is in the cabinetry along one wall which houses the dishwasher (I miss my dishwasher more than I miss being 10 years old), the ice machine, the sink cabinet, and a set of giant drawers will be installed. The fridge and the stove will go in on the opposite wall and we will use it for a few weeks to see if we like the placement of those two items. Once we are comfortable with placement we can go ahead and have the cabinet guy fab up the rest of the cabinets. We are only doing custom made on the floor cabinetry. The remainder is going to be a very cool mixed bag of stuff that my wife has been having alot of fun picking up.

By the time we are finished (I am shooting for Halloween-or maybe I should say Los dias de los Muerte as that is what I will be if I don't finish by then ) we should have a very functional and a very, very cool space. I can't wait. The day I drive the last nail I have promised to rip into a bathroom. This will never end, but I enjoy doing it (mostly) and it is a great learning process.

Thanks for asking and I will try to get some photos up here this week.

Brooks

[hathor]

I was getting nervous too...it was too long without an update! Did Mrs. Mayhaw Man sheetrock your corpse behind a wall???

Happy to hear all is well and you are working away. Let us know when that last nail is about to be pounded, and we'll do a global eGullet toast in your honor!!

[snowangel]

Plans are for planners. I am a spontaneous kinda guy. Ask my shrink, she'll tell you.  

"Plans? What Plans? We don't have no stinking plans!"

←

Brooks, you most certainly did have a plan. To replace the dishwasher. To me, that's a plan. So what if it got a little more extensive.

Thanks for the update. I'd miss my dishwasher, too. But, for some reason, I don't when I'm at the cabin. Maybe it's the view while doing dishes?

[Cusina]

We had the same issue with our old pine floors. Sad, but we had to replace them. I guess they just don't have the endurance of the harder woods. The sealers they used back in the day just couldn't keep the water out I guess.

It is clever to place the appliances before the cabinetry. My one gripe about our kitchen is the bottleneck that happens in front of our fridge, which opens into the entry to the dining room. Ugh. We didn't build our cabinets (the former owner's son did, out of solid walnut) but I sure wish he had thought about that before he laid them in.

Thanks for the update, I can't wait to see the pictures. Happy door hanging.

[robyn]

Robyn-

Brooks lives in Louisiana.  Need I say more?  They just do things differently there.  Also, if you can do the work for less than a certain dollar amount, the local government doesn't get involved.

Anyhow, this isn't even worth wasting our time on.  Brooks comes from a family of lawyers and doctors, and some of them are even honest, too!  So let's carry on.

←

After going through a tropical storm - and 2 close encounters with major hurricanes - in the last 3 weeks (although a lot of people in Florida weren't as lucky as I was) - I can say - yes - you have to say more. In a way - what has happened here in the last 3 weeks is good. Efforts to strengthen building codes in Florida in recent years have been fought tooth and nail by the building industry - the "good ole boys" who think you ought to be able to build anything the way you want to build it - no matter how poor the construction. I suspect Charley and Frances will put a big dent in those campaigns.

Unless the only topic that can be discussed here in this forum is design (and I'm not aware of any such rule) - I think that building codes and structural integrity matter for people who live in calamity prone areas (and that's just about all of us if you take things like hurricanes - earthquakes - floods - tornadoes - etc. - into account). In the last 3 weeks - structures in Florida built to stringent codes fared relatively well. Those built to lesser codes didn't. And it's not strictly a question of an individual "assuming the risk" since just about everyone has insurance through private insurance companies - state pools - federal flood insurance - or - as a last resort - begging FEMA to bail them out. So when construction isn't up to snuff in terms of dealing with the particular hazards in a particular area - we all wind up paying for the deficiencies eventually. I won't say more in this thread. I just want it known that I don't agree with your POV. Robyn

[Steve Klc]

Brooks, I just found this thread and have to say it is an amazing journey--everyone has shared so much. We just re-did our kitchen, we said "it was about time" just like you and to follow in your spirit I figure I'll chime in with our approach, perhaps share some money saving tips, hints that worked for us and other stuff that we did on our own job. That way others might rethink or change what they're planning to do, as you have as a result of this thread. The thing is, often you have to live with what you've done for while to realize what you really should have done or need to do--in terms of placement, efficiency, functionality, etc. It might pay for you to stop and live and cook and entertain for awhile, and purposely plan to phase some final things in later.

The kitchen in our 900 square foot condo is small, 7.5' by 10' and needed a re-model, it wasn't built with 2 professional pastry chefs in mind who do a lot of recipe testing at home, one of whom also likes to cook. (Not me, I like to eat out.) Two holdover items in our condo influenced our design and decision-making, much like the cypress wood influenced yours:

1) a big wooden Italian dining table, which we bought for <$300 from the Pottery Barn furniture outlet (maybe $1300 new) which has a thick, perfectly flat stainless steel top surface;

2) an IKEA Varde sideboard white drawer unit:

http://www.ikea-usa.com/webapp/wcs/stores/...110*10255*10257

which we got from as-is for $150 ($599. new) I had removed its butcher block wood top and replaced it with a stainless steel top taken off of a Pottery Barn sideboard, so it "matched" the dining room table perfectly.

Brooks, early on you said "it will fit the age and style of my kitchen better than most of the ones that I keep looking at over and over again while trying to convince myself that they are worth the money" and that passage really struck home with me--this whole area is so personal, that value and worth are so complicated to determine, and that we're all bombarded with magazine spreads and television shows. For us it seemed the look we wanted, what we'd find worth it, was also expensive--it is kind of a clean, modern, cool, professional look--more commercial than residential. There's cheap stainless and sturdy stainless, stuff that will buckle and stuff that won't--and with these two pieces we had flat stainless surfaces that were sturdy as a rock, much more sturdy than even restaurant kitchen surfaces, and even looked good "worn" as they had become. So we built around them and our kitchen design was influenced by the fact that we wanted stainless and white in the kitchen as well.

We liked the different warmths and tactile feels of corian, glass, granite, aluminum in addition to stainless, so we designed a preliminary but not-as-integrated-as-it-ended-up-space with all five that was at cool, matte, warm, sleek, shiny and smooth--we liked each medium for its different qualities, cleanliness and imperviousness. As opposed to building around wood as you did and as most seem to like, we didn't want any visible wood anywhere in the kitchen. Not even a wood cutting board. Liking everything was also how we ended up with white, gray, stainless, glass, aluminum, granite and corian in about 50% of our condo by the time we finished, but that's at the end of the story. For us going in the plan was:

1) first gut and remodel the entire kitchen space AND then extend the small formal kitchen space out into living and dining room condo space creating 2 connected kitchen lab/storage spaces off of each end of the kitchen. We kept our white fridge because it was only a few years old anyway and the French door/bottom mount freezer models we were seduced by still cost over $2,000;

2) to do this at this scale we needed to save money, so we acquired elements over time and on sale, we even let what we found on sale guide and change our direction at times--and on at least a few occasions this led to a "better" design. We could afford very few splurge items, our taste required we find many sale items & that we do mostly all the work ourselves, which was ok since we're kind of handy;

3) we also courageously/stupidly decided to re-do other significant elements of our condo at the same time, figuring what's a little more upheaval on top of already incredible upheaval, so we had to cut corners even more--we were taking a hit for A) new hardwood floors everywhere else beside the kitchen (which we tiled a coordinating slate gray,) B) a new window sliding shade/panel system along our full sun south exposure (which is wall-to-wall windows, knee sash to ceiling.) So these elements had to be coordinated with the new storage and wall unit areas for the extended kitchen lab spaces, so they'd also all coordinate with the gray/glass/stainless/white of the kitchen. Flow chart-wise, once the kitchen cabs and appliances were in we moved onto installing the wood floors, which required ripping up the old carpet, moving out or giving away the old furniture and wall units, laying the floors then moving in and assembling the new lab spaces on top of the wood;

4) we only allowed ourselves three new, high ticket and/or splurge items: we couldn't spend the equivalent of say a GE Monogram ice maker ($1200+/-) on too many items: for us, that meant we chose A) one custom Corian glacier white countertop with coved backsplash & a large seamless single sink ($1300 installed,) B) a stainless GE dual fuel range (gas stovetop w/ electric convection oven, which we got for $1050 including gas disconnect/reconnect and haulaway of old range), and C) a Vinotemp undercounter wine storage unit ($399.) The rest we got cheaply over a period of 3 months.

I did a little research online here, and with pros and designers and installers, especially in the woodweb and gardenweb kitchen discussion forums which were excellent, learned a little about solid surface countertops and kitchen installs and remodels from the pros and the DIY prosumers, and decided we'd be better off gutting our space completely except for the existing fridge, which we moved around, then re-did it completely walls, floors et al (we'll eventually replace the fridge when we happen upon the model we want at the right price.) We chose IKEA for our kitchen because they had aluminum and stainless options, yet were inexpensive and very high quality compared to other commerical/residential product options. (This was before the Consumer Reports kitchen issue came out picking IKEA 3rd best overall and by far the best for price.)

We ripped everything out, did the floor tile, repaired, primed and painted the walls and ceilings first, then installed the sink/stove/dishwasher side cabinets next--hanging 96" of wall cabs first, so we could get right under them, then installed the base cabs underneath (we purchased all our cabs ahead of time, most were on box sale at 75% off or already assembled from the as-is room.) Then we moved the appliances in to make sure they fit, levelled everything and made minor adjustments--one should do it this way if you're going corian/granite/stone because with solid surface--the countertop template people came to measure--all this stuff has to be in level and true so there are no surprises later. I'm phrasing it this way because we didn't do this--we didn't have our stove in place when the guy measured the template--it was still in the living room with a cat nestled on it--and we ended up with a mismeasured template yielding a just too long countertop which then had to be shaved off very messily with a belt sander on site--as we were sliding the stove in and out, in and out, and that wasn't pretty.

I had read online somewhere about gc's setting up a temp sink and cutting temp countertops, while you waited for the fabrication and installation of the solid surface countertop, so since we didn't have a gc we did that, too and had running water and a drain in the kitchen while we waited the 10 days for them to return. I clamped the old st. st. sink and faucet in place over the new sink bas cab and we were good to go. This was a lifesaver.

Then we began work on the other side of the kitchen--which changed every week or so as we happened on some bargain or new idea.

After 10 days the countertop was installed, plumbing and dw reconnected;

To do this on a budget, we and our cats lived with a little inconvenience (alright, a lot of inconvenience over 3 months or so) we had cabs and appliances and doors and lights and stuff piled/stacked all over the condo, in various stages of assembly. The cats loved climbing and playing on all this stuff. We had trouble seeing our tv at times. I'd make bi-weekly jaunts to the two IKEA as-is rooms near where we live and constantly came up with various goodies and deals--stuff I wasn't sure we'd actually use eventually but had a gut feeling we would.

A key for us was to shop over time and at the places that move/turnover product--IKEA as is, a huge Sears appliance outlet, a large Best Buy with a knowledgeable manager which moved a lot of appliances and would price match/special order, and a large Home Depot which often had appliances on clearance. (And remember, always factor in delivery AND installation.) We happened upon a $700 stainless dishwasher floor model in perfect shape from Home Depot for $250 and walked away with it. Earlier on this thread someone suggested "You can get a dual fuel range--electric convection and gas cooktop" and that is exactly what we wanted--we're both pros who appreciated fast powerful gas burners and electric convection ovens. At Home Depot we had seen that GE had a very nice stainless prosumer Profile dual fuel convection range--self-cleaning, with huge oven space, a warming drawer, a 15K power burner, and great continuous top grates over a sealed burner tray. What we didn't notice (and no signs made clear) is that there are actually two identical models--one requiring a 240V line with a true convection oven (true as in a third, separate, heat source and fan) and another 110V model which just had a fan to force circulate the air from its two heat sources--but $2,000 was too much. One day we happened upon the 240V model in a HD at a floor model clearance price of $997. (Of course at the time we didn't KNOW there was a 240V model.) Delivery was not included at this price and it could not "be" delivered even if you paid for it--you had to take it off the floor and take it home yourself. We weren't up for that.

But we wanted this stove bad--we had been bitten by the bug like no prosumer before us--so we somehow got that great Best Buy manager to price match the HD $997. and special order the same range for us for $927 including free delivery. Boy, we were happy consumers until we took delivery of the range and I saw that huge fat odd electrical plug in the back. We live in an old condo that don't know no stinking 240. So we turned into dumb consumers at that point, and eventually had to swap it out for the similarly-styled 110v model (J2B915 is the 240V model with the killer convection oven inside. This is one maly stove.) That's because we found out what a hassle we'd have with our condo building trying to put this serious 240V model in, and that even if we fought the board and the board didn't win, it was going to cost us $500 just to have the electrician run the new 240 power line to it and buy the breaker for it for our antiquated circuit box which we can't replace. (That's another story.) So, this is the one we settled for after paying a restocking fee, it works great, after living and baking in it for a while we both highly recommend it:

http://products.geappliances.com/ProdConte...SKU=J2B915SEHSS

We had to pay the restocking fee because BB price matched the $997. HD clearance price and had to special order it. Even so, it still was much less than the electrician's bill was going to be. To prove the price to BB, which was at a local competing HD right around the corner, we had to "borrow" the HD sign with the price on it, since their website and sales circular that week had it listed for $1,649.

The Corian we chose, with one large deep seamless sink was ordered through IKEA and the measurement/install was handled locally by another company--a branch of a national outfit called STC Surface Technologies (we did this so we'd have the backing and potential leverage of IKEA, a big company, behind us if anything went wrong now or down the line plus the IKEA quoted price for this was a few hundred dollars cheaper than the price quoted from STC directly, which we had approached independently first.) So it pays to shop around--even with something as price-fixed and rigidly-controlled as Corian apparently is. We fell in love with the galcier white--the whitest of white and incidentally one of the cheapest of Corian colors--once we saw it in an IKEA display kitchen. After those stainless Pottery Barn tabletops the glacier white was the next big design influence we built around.

Some detours, special built-in touches and/or ways we stretched the budget:

--chose the cool IKEA Avsikt aluminum and glass doors for spaciousness above and Numerar stainless steel drawers below--MUCH less expensive than other commercial options for same;

--created our own pull out undercounter trash drawer--since that was not an existing option IKEA has and we didn't have the floor space to have a freestanding can--the key was finding a trash can just large enough to work in that space but small enough to fit on a pullout drawer--and we did from the Container store;

--mounted our small commercial convection oven & our microwave oven on shelves up off the countertop;

--found some Corian dirt cheap in the IKEA as-is one day--an island and matching straight run of countertop for $10 each w/ coved backsplash--from an IKEA demo kitchen which had just been broken down and remodeled itself. Cameo white not glacier white but it looks good together given how the light in our space floats in at an angle, a little dirty initially but I buffed it back to perfect whiteness in minutes. That is a really nice feature of Corian--it is user repairable. I set one piece up on the other side of the kitchen and the unused piece sets us up for further expansion or re-design in the future (this was a $2400 value of Corian;)

--the aforementioned floor model dw from HD saved us several hundred;

--we lucked upon a very nice stylish undercounter st. st. Vinotemp wine storage unit, a bargain even regularly priced at $399. from Costco, which vents in the front and as a result effortlessly sits "built-in" underneath the Corian and alongside the IKEA base cabinets;

--mostly all of our cabinets came from kitchen displays broken down and refreshed over the summer, as IKEA readies for the new catalog to be released in August. So June and July were very good times for the savvy kitchen remodeller to buy total bargain completely assembled cabs with drawers, drawer fronts and handles. Just wait, you'll find what style you want, even stainless;

--IKEA as is was also the place to find their very nice Italian $50 under cabinet halogen light units for $5, I bought 8 because the glacier white cried out to be illuminated; also $100 single hole high spout faucets for $15 brand new--at this price we bought two and could afford to swap them out over time vs. spending on a several hundred dollar model (the IKEA taps have very high quality seals and construction by the way, comparable to most designer taps costing hundreds of dollars--the plumbers oogled;)

--in one of the extended kitchen lab spaces we put in a small island with a 36" x 26" thick granite top as a pastry work surface above a st. st. base cabinet--and because it was small and we were willing to pick it up we got the granite at a remnant price for $225 from Marblesource;

--we also took advantage of the very good return/exchange policy at IKEA--so if we bought new stuff and had it laying around and then found the same items in as-is weeks/months later--back the new stuff went to the store for a full refund, no problem;

--one idea we could have taken advantage of better--looking back--remain open to using things for other purposes than that which it may be intended. Our success: we're probably the first people to use this new IKEA bedroom storage system called Stolmen in our kitchen and lab space--it's all aluminum poles and brackets with white shelves, very airy, open, clean--link:

http://www.ikea-usa.com/webapp/wcs/stores/...385&cattype=sub

Problems which cropped up for us which others might benefit from:

1. know your limitations and don't assume. our building is 45 years old and we're apparently stuck with an unsafe outdated Federal Pacific Electric panel, circuit breaker box, a limited # circuits and amps, we had that aforementioned problem running 240 volt line which necessitated a range swap, delaying us 2 weeks and forced us into the lesser of two evils restocking fee. better to find this out beforehand;

2. didn't know we needed a side panel in between dw and stove to support corian, we had laminate countertops before which didn't need a side panel--so we wasted a tech's trip out to measure template, set us back a week because I had to rig a side panel and get another appointment;

3. wanted a single hole faucet--so our dw drain now connects directly through disposal rather than up and down through an aerator plug. haven't had an overflow, yet, but my fingers are crossed, this is apparently against code;

4. don't do without while waiting for countertop--set up a temporary sink, reconnect old sink with clamps, cut and lay temporary countertop pieces; it works;

5. IKEA requires a plan of attack and calculated strategies. The main thing is, if you go IKEA, you have to learn the products and their system--if you're not willing to do this, then pay someone to install your IKEA for you and you'll still save money since it is so fairly priced to begin with. (Apologies for length.)

[jgarner53]

Steve, it all sounds marvelous. Do you have pictures you'd care to share?

We've started thinking (again) about remodeling our own kitchen, and also being spatially challenged, every square inch counts double.

[Mayhaw Man]

Apologies for length? Are you nuts? That was a truly great piece of work. When you said you had a few things to post I thought that it was gonna be a short list or something. That was great!

I'll save comments for later, but as far as your dishwasher goes, I have never had a problem running mine through the disposal, but I always make sure that I run the disposal clean before I run the dishwasher, as the drainage can be a bit slow otherwise.

Thanks! I've got to read that thing again. And your hint about living with it for a while? We had already planned on it (I think I mentioned that somewhere in here). I want to see how the flow works before I sink more dollars into more cabinetry.

Brooks

[rnewman]

Thanks so much Steve for a great, informative post on an already great, informative thread.

We had also recently purchased the GE Profile Dual Fuel Range -- now I'm not sure what the wattage is since, like you, I didn't know it came in more than one. I've only used it a few times for baking, but I'm very pleased with the oven size and the convection oven. It's nice to know that two professional pastry chefs feel that this oven is a good, affordable option given the number of exorbitantly priced ranges out there.

I'm also pleased to hear about the quality and range of options at IKEA. We will tackle the cabinets next and again, while style is important, functionality and affordability are more important.

Thanks again to both Steve and Brooks for so much great info.

Ruchi

[Steve Klc]

Ruth, I think it is too easy to get seduced by very expensive professional equipment and kitchen design, and we were guilty as anyone--I spent too many hours, my weakness was and still is Italian furniture and design sites--but that helped me think even more about storage, form, function, feel, adaptations I could steal, I mean emulate. Not that we wanted a restaurant kitchen at home--far from it--but that said, there's a reason why certain professional designs and restaurant spaces work--thought went into how such a space would be used, heavily and under pressure, how it would wear over time, be cleaned, even be adapted down the road--and we'd be foolish not to try to learn from that even if we're talking about a home kitchen. In our case being pastry chefs we're both used to very tight quarters, indeed, the space devoted to the pastry chef in most restaurants is an afterthought, a corner, a cutting board next to the dishwasher, somewhere the chef shoves you because, well, you're just the pastry chef, etc. Our small condo space at home was wonderful, expansive, even, given what most pastry chefs get to work with.

Given our dimensions and budget, though, which at this stage would not include any money for serious wall destruction/re-construction/re-wiring, we knew there was no reason for us to think beyond the relatively affordable standard 30" wide gas range--as long as it had at least one strong restaurant-emulating "power" burner. A good one would work just fine for us, since we also had a microwave and a small commercial convection oven already (those were going to be on that IKEA Stolmen freestanding aluminum shelf system on the other side of the kitchen right next to the fridge.) Why the additional Sodir convection oven? Well, I was given it after doing a series of demos a few years ago and kept it so we don't have to heat up the whole kitchen in the summer or use the main oven for something small. We also had two strong portable induction burners which we could move around as needed and had acquired a pretty deep line of Sitram pans over time--which can go from gas to induction and back again.

So financially, we had to swap a good new 30" range in the space left by the old one. Once we saw and researched the duel fuel GE Profile, as I said, for the price we were hooked. I briefly considered a slide-in version, but once I investigated them I found out that slide-ins were usually 1) significantly more expensive at a given performance level than the same freestanding range model and 2) wider, effectively, by an inch or two than comparable freestanding models, which were usually like 29.5" In my situation we had a very tight fit along that straight run side of Corian sink/countertop/dishwasher/range, so we couldn't even consider a slide-in, even after I found several very nice stainless ones at the Sears appliance outlet for like $600--they were 1" too wide and I had no affordable way to make up that inch.

In order to get a slide-in duel fuel range I would gladly have traded down to a narrower width dishwasher that was more European, but those models aren't available in the states affordably. Here, it is 24" or you pay a stiff premium. (Why "prefer" a slide-in? I think it would have been cleaner and more efficient not to have that extra 11" back panel sticking up, which the delivery guys could just bend and crinkle by not picking it up correctly, and better to have the controls on the front instead.) If the duel-fuel Profile you have plugs into a regular old 110v outlet, Ruth, you likely have the same model convection oven we have, with a recirculating fan, our model with the powerful 15K burner, in stainless is JGB920SEFSS. (The model requiring the 240v line is the J2B915--and would be the superior oven for the baker-inclined. If price were roughly equal and the 240v line was not an issue--I'd take the J2B915 every time.) One of my pre-purchase functionality tests for the Profile was could an 18" diameter cake pan fit in the oven perfectly flat. Not that I ever plan to bake an 18" tier for a wedding cake in that oven, but if I had to, could I? If you invert the metal oven rack, it fit.

After we had already purchased the range new, pricematched for $927 from Best Buy, I found the same $1849 model at the Sears Appliance Outlet (the Potomac Mills, Woobridge, VA store) on scratch n dent special for $859. Delivery would have been about $50 additional. So bargains are out there for the lucky and patient, and it seems most of the higher-end/prosumer stock at this Sears outlet was due to delivery guy carelessness--i.e. not picking up the heavier ranges with a strap underneath and instead trying to tilt, pick it up and carry it with their hands. That's how that 11" back piece gets bent, it's not meant to be grabbed, and that's how many of these models get in the outlet.

In general, we refused at this initial remodel point to be seduced by many of things you increasingly see in kitchen remodels and prosumer showrooms--islands, double-bowl sinks or second sinks, slide in ranges, 36" wide ranges, built-in wall ovens--all seem to be particular favorites of designers. I see why ergonomically or functionally in most cases--for instance, why bend over when you don't have to, to get in and out of the oven? Why allow a crowd to build up at just one sink and work grind to halt when you can have another? At this point we have to live with our new space for awhile before we commit to those, in phase two, if at all. Right now I have that $10. IKEA as-is 61" by 39" matching Corian island just leaning up against a wall. And yes I'll try to follow up with some before and after photos, and try to go into more detail about IKEA kitchen in terms of form, function and design, customer service, quality, why we made the specific storage and product choices we did, and where we're likely going next.

[HerndonJake]

Brooks,

Whats the latest update on the kitchen? I have a turn-of-the-century farmhouse so I've read with an eye for future reference, in case I get the urge for a kitchen rehab as well. For now, I'd be happy to replace the tile countertops.

Are you making progress toward the halloween deadline?

Thanks to both you and Steve for some informative and interesting reading.

[Mayhaw Man]

I will update this afternoon from home.

But the short answer is yes I will be finished by Halloween. I'm just not sure what year it will be.