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Looks ambitious, and expensive, thats more the Gordon Ramsay RHR. In fact this is French Laundry money! Am I alone in finding:

tomato here one second, gone the next

and

then mixed with a bit of now

ridiculous?

Not saying the food is not great, I'm sure it is but....

Gourmand

Lakeland slate, five contrasts to get you going

*

Butternut squash and tangerine soup, Jabugo ham, crunchy bergamot

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Peppered parmesan 'French Fries', Pineapple, thyme

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Cubism in Foie Gras, two cold one hot, quince, bitter chocolate, pickled onion Turkish

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Brushed tuna, smokey flavour, lovage squirt, apple wash in plastic

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Half soft and scrambled eggs, smoked eel hyssop froth

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A 'tuberous affair' cooked in clay, juices of the black diamond

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Berni's crab, warm jelly hint of woodruff, sweet pistachio fudge

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Pan fried langoustine, sour grapefruit drops, tomato here one second, gone the next

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Diver-caught sea scallop, good king henry, ginger and green tea foam

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Cubes from Land and Sea, eucalyptus hollandaise style

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Poached brill, English mace, wild tree spinach, pickle from then mixed with a bit of now

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Roasted bass, calamint flavours, nutty nougatine, swish

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Bottled aromas, sweet cicely, passion pipette

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White truffle custard 'Chinese style'

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Fennel 'Irish Coffee' cumin rice crackling

'Challans' duck, painted lady, coffee bon bon, sour cherry juices, celery leaf

or

Mr Little's beef fillet, cepe Madeleine St Zita would be proud of, leaf of galiad

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Monsieur Rabaud's cheeses from the trolley

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Surrealist 'Slammer'

Perilla financier, wild angelica syrup, juniper ice cream.

Burnt cream pots, wild mountain sorrel, pimento, verbena, saffron honey.

Upside down coconut soufflé, test tube.

Hot chocolate mousse, spices, lapsang, yet another celebral application.

£95.00

No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

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No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

how many chefs roast, pan fry, boil and saute?

why are they not accused of plagiarism?

Suzi Edwards aka "Tarka"

"the only thing larger than her bum is her ego"

Blogito ergo sum

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No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

how many chefs roast, pan fry, boil and saute?

why are they not accused of plagiarism?

Every single one of them, even in El Bulli, use traditional cooking methods that's not the point.

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No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

how many chefs roast, pan fry, boil and saute?

why are they not accused of plagiarism?

Every single one of them, even in El Bulli, use traditional cooking methods that's not the point.

So what is the point? You specifically site plaigiarism of Adria's gastronomy via the terminology as your reason for, as far as I can see, not buying into it.

Perhaps you can tell us what it was specifically about your meal here that you didn't like and what the other diners were doing to make it look like they were just pretending they liked it?

Suzi Edwards aka "Tarka"

"the only thing larger than her bum is her ego"

Blogito ergo sum

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No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

how many chefs roast, pan fry, boil and saute?

why are they not accused of plagiarism?

Every single one of them, even in El Bulli, use traditional cooking methods that's not the point.

So what is the point? You specifically site plaigiarism of Adria's gastronomy via the terminology as your reason for, as far as I can see, not buying into it.

Perhaps you can tell us what it was specifically about your meal here that you didn't like and what the other diners were doing to make it look like they were just pretending they liked it?

I've never eaten at L'enclume and didn't say I had. Although I have eaten Simon Rogans food twice, once at Baliffs Court and once at The Greyhound and I think he is a very good chef and so on and so on and so on......

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No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

how many chefs roast, pan fry, boil and saute?

why are they not accused of plagiarism?

Every single one of them, even in El Bulli, use traditional cooking methods that's not the point.

So what is the point? You specifically site plaigiarism of Adria's gastronomy via the terminology as your reason for, as far as I can see, not buying into it.

Perhaps you can tell us what it was specifically about your meal here that you didn't like and what the other diners were doing to make it look like they were just pretending they liked it?

Okay, instead of having someone prove plagiarism is wrong (unnecessary), why don't you outline why it's acceptable?

Time and again, there are those on these boards who just won't accept wider viewpoint of where restaurants like l'Enclume and The Fat Duck actually come from. The point is, that if you knew you'd have to agree, and if you didn't (and I don't think you do) then you couldn't be in a position to make a refutation.

Why do you think plagiarism gets cited about these kind of restaurants? Do you think it's crankiness, or would you be prepared to admit that someone might know a bit more than you do, and is able to place restaurants within a broader context of influence?

Unless one is in possession of the relevant knowledge (are you?), every time you refute a claim like the Count's, you do so based on prejudice.

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It's my understanding that "these restaurants" come out of an evolving movement called gastronomy. There would be no Fat Duck without Escoffier and I am currently exploring more about traditional French cooking so I can talk informatively and passionatley about where food has come from and where it is going now

Rather than calling into question my knowledge Opson let's concentrate on the issue at hand. The Count accuses Rogan/Bradshaw of plaigiarising Adria. I haven't eaten at L'Enclume yet...but a quick look at the menu makes me think that there's really only one thing that would make you shout "Ell Bulli" and that's the foam. And i've been served foams in many more restaurants than just those in Roses. I was served one at Ambria, in Chicago, a very French restaurant just a week or two ago. When I read the menu I think much more "that sounds a bit Veyrat" but I haven't eaten there yet so I can only make the connection and not a comparison.

I think that plaigiarism is cited about these restaurants because there are so few places cooking like this that people want to bundle them all up and pidgeonhole them. I think people also use "El Bulli" as shorthand for "different" My point, which I think was quite well made, is that we don't accuse people who roast, fry and boil of copying each other. I'm sure if I knew (and I don't) who made the first cappuchino sauce I'd be evoking their name every time I saw one. And I've seen a few.

Suzi Edwards aka "Tarka"

"the only thing larger than her bum is her ego"

Blogito ergo sum

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Rather than calling into question my knowledge Opson let's concentrate on the issue at hand. The Count accuses Rogan/Bradshaw of plaigiarising Adria. I haven't eaten at L'Enclume yet...but a quick look at the menu makes me think that there's really only one thing that would make you shout "Ell Bulli" and that's the foam.

I spotted 13 references, influences and plain rip offs in this menu from chefs such as Adria, Veyrat, Robouchon, MPW and TFD (as bad).

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Grant Achatz said something on here about when you move out of a box the frame of reference becomes smaller...and i think i agree with him that it's more that the frame of reference is different, so people might think it's derivative.

I think understand the parts of the menu that are Veyrat-esque. Could you explain the other references to me? I'd be keen to understand where you think the "inspiration" (I prefer that to "rip off") for the dishes is coming from. Especially the Robouchon and MPW stuff.

Suzi Edwards aka "Tarka"

"the only thing larger than her bum is her ego"

Blogito ergo sum

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No you are not alone nor is the terminology in anyway original. It's a mish mash of Veyrat, Bras, Adria and White with the bluntest tool in a desperate chefs box thrown in........ the test tube. Suddenly chefs think they're a scientist crossed with a reincarnated Salvador Dali. The funniest thing is watching people eat this nonsense and pretend that they like it. Are they so jaded that they need culinary magic tricks before they declare that a chef is "good". This menu is the end product of our rush to make chefs celebrites and our obsession with reviewing restaurants. It's the need to stand out and be different that has created the mass plaigrism of Adria's gastronomy.

I am confused.

Everyone "plagiarises" Escoffier who was a brilliant chef who did new, wild and wacky things in his time.

Everyone "plagiarises" Adria who is a brilliant chef who does new, wild and wacky things in his time.

What is the difference? Why does "plagiarising" one have negative connotations while "plagiarising" one is Standard Operating Procedure?

???

J

More Cookbooks than Sense - my new Cookbook blog!
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Grant Achatz said something on here about when you move out of a box the frame of reference becomes smaller...and i think i agree with him that it's  more that the frame of reference is different, so people might think it's derivative.

I quite understand this statement, because Achatz, Blumenthal, et al, have moved out of one box and into someone else's -- there's just not enough room for all of them. In fact, it's a pretty silly statement really, because were one to "move out of the box", one supposes that there is no frame of reference. I don't understand your willingness to believe this kind of cheffly rhetoric. Isn't it just more likely that these guys buy the books of their heroes and tweak the recipes a little? Isn't that what makes them appear derivative? In other words don't they appear derivative because they are derivative?

be keen to understand where you think the "inspiration" (I prefer that to "rip off") for the dishes is coming from. Especially the Robouchon and MPW stuff.

Why do you prefer "inspiration"? Ferran Adria says creativity is not copying, inspiration implies creative innovation, while copying does not.

Regarding your 'killer' argument viz. roasting, sauteing etc., it sophistry falls down on the common sense element. If I plagiarized a successful novel, would you accept the argument that as the original writer had not invented either language or the word processor then it could not be plagiarism?

Once again, it comes down to a very British belief that they are capable of being the best at something if they put their minds to it. When Colin Welland, Oscar in hand, said, "the British are coming!", Britain really believed that they were going kick Hollywood's ass. Twenty Hugh Grant films later where is the great British movie renaissance. It's a similar story with food, you are all so desperate to feel you can lead the world in this arena that you invent heroes in whom you can see no wrong.

Face it, Tarka, l'Enclume, The Fat Duck, Trio, Gordon Ramsay etc. are all counterfeit copies of European originals. This doesn't mean that you can't get a good meal in any one of them, quite the opposite, this guys know how to copy and copy well. Rather, it just means that their position in the culinary firmament is distinctly 'C list'. I'm sure that Russians, or Greeks, or the Irish would have no problem acknowledging their gastronomic position with relation to giants like France, Spain and Italy. It's only the British who can't accept it.

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I am confused.

Everyone "plagiarises" Escoffier who was a brilliant chef who did new, wild and wacky things in his time.

Everyone "plagiarises" Adria who is a brilliant chef who does new, wild and wacky things in his time.

What is the difference? Why does "plagiarising" one have negative connotations while "plagiarising" one is Standard Operating Procedure?

???

J

You answer your own question: because apart from some luminaries most chefs are plagiarists. The problem here is deciding upon who the luminaries are, or are not.

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Opson, the plagiarism theory is great but any ideas where these chefs did their crash course in Spanish before the Bulli translations came out. Whilst many speak fluent French they certainly don't have enough Spanish to understand the complxities of recipes, perhaps they just looked at the pretty pictures and guessed but then that really would be innovative

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Why do you think plagiarism gets cited about these kind of restaurants? Do you think it's crankiness, or would you be prepared to admit that someone might know a bit more than you do, and is able to place restaurants within a broader context of influence?

Unless one is in possession of the relevant  knowledge (are you?), every time you refute a claim like the Count's, you do so based on prejudice.

That's quite an absurd position for many reasons, and I do think crankiness and axes to grind are often the reason we get such nonconstructive criticism and cries of plagiarism particularly from anonymous sources. The sense of deja vu has already been cited. Of course a few people might know more than the major part of the membership, but it's really doubtful that a couple of posters who log on with pseudonyms to make the same point over and over are really not going to convince many that these same anonymous voices are those of knowledgeable diners.

One very highly respect critic has posted (on the Spain forum?) that Adrià has great respect for Blumenthal and while I'm not willing to disclose my private conversations, I have quite a bit of respect for Blumenthal based on conversations that indicate Blumenthal was doing some stuff well before Adrià did similar things. This is not to say that he's better than Adrià or that he's more avant garde than Adrià. Anyone involved in the creative arts or even scientific experimentation, that due credit doesn't always go to the first innovator. Some artists, and some chefs, benefit from a better press, while some chefs just suffer a surfeit of anonymous critics on the Internet.

Tarka has already suggest that cuisine is part of a continuum and creative cooking as well as molecular gastronomy are no less so. Chefs, like the rest of us, are products of their times and all respond to similar stimuli. The cross pollination is too great to make the kind of absolute distinctions you want to make between leaders and followers if only because the followers need credit for pushing the movement along. To focus on the superficial aspects of any innovation--foam for example--is to lose sight of the variations and creativity within that aspect.

Nevertheless, I return to my original point, when an anonymous voice arises from time to time with a single purpose, it's always going to be highly suspect. When it claims to be the voice of greater knowledge than that possessed by those each of us may already respect, that anonymous voice becomes a tiring presence whose influences wanes with each post.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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That's quite an absurd position for many reasons, and I do think crankiness and axes to grind are often the reason we get such nonconstructive criticism and cries of plagiarism particularly from anonymous sources. The sense of deja vu has already been cited. Of course a few people might know more than the major part of the membership, but it's really doubtful that a couple of posters who log on with pseudonyms to make the same point over and over are really not going to convince many that these same anonymous voices are those of knowledgeable diners.

My name is Jaime and I live in Madrid. I work for a major advertising agency in a creative capacity, and recently I have been spending a great deal of time in London (a city I adore). Part of my job requires me to be present at sometimes quite tiresome business lunches/dinners, the highlight of which is the meal itself.

I don't think I'm a crank, and am not anonymous for any particular reason other than when registering I liked the term opson (it means 'relish' in Attic Greek, as opposed to sitos, which means staple), besides which most of the members here seem to be anonymous.

I base my opinions on my own observations, which are not encyclopedic but significant. I have no axe to grind, I'm just unfortunate in holding an unpopular position here.

I am confused by your use of 'non-constructive criticism'. This has the potential to be an interesting discussion, but I get the feeling that your post is intended to discredit me as person in order to undermine my argument (please tell me I'm wrong).

Finally, maybe I am being repetitive on this topic, it's a failing of mine, I like to see mutually satisfactory outcomes to this kind of conversation, but it's still my deeply held opinion and one that has been presented in good faith.

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Jaime, you're lucky to have boring business meetings in interesting restaurants. Most often boring business meetings are held in boring restaurants.

A few members have expressed legitimate reasons for using a pseudonym and once we grant that right to one member, we feel obligated to grant it to all, but we prefer that members use a real name. eGullet staff and all members of our team used a real name as their user name or in their signature. I can't really speak for others, but two things lend credibility to posts for me. One is the use of a real name. The other may be more important, but it's the rounded picture I get from reading a member's posts over time. If I feel a member has a one track purpose, there are two likely reasons. The first is that he tends to post on one subject and to introduce that subject into threads, often where it seems to derail the thread back onto that poster's favorite subject. The other reason would be that I am not familiar with the range of posts by that member.

As for this having the opportunity to be an interesting discussion, I suppose my sense is that it looks as if it's going to be the same old subjective argument without much in the way of substance. Discussing plagiarism in a dynamically changing culinary world where the average diner sees creativity as it appears to him often not only means a subjective view of what's out there on the tables of foreign restaurants, but must preclude experiments carried on in the kitchen which may take years to reach a restaurant table. If chef A makes a discovery in 2000, but for one reason or another (not having his own restaurant, or not having the right clientele) it doesn't make it to the table, and chef B makes a similar discovery in 2001 and served it in 2002, is he the more creative or more avant garde chef? Most of us know what we've tasted and where we first had it; some of us manage to be aware that a similar dish may have appeared elsewhere already; but very few of us have much of a clue about what's going on behind the scenes. What I sense in this thread is the introduction of a discussion about the evils of plagiarism even when it's admitted that the majority here don't see Blumenthal as a plagiarist.

Even if Blumenthal were to be judged as a derivative chef, (and I'm not of that opinion) I would assert that his work was worthy of intellectual discussion as well as gastronomic praise from those who have enjoyed eating it. Even if history judges him as a minor chef, he wouldn't be dismissed. Why should any restaurant discussion be dragged down with such a focus on whether or not the food may be derivative. Even precise supportable examples shouldn't overpower the rest of the discussion. As alluded to earlier, few people are likely to dismiss a traditional restaurant by saying it's too derivative of Escoffier. Perhaps it's a subjective difference in opinion about discussions, but I don't get what seems like harping on a single issue, that I don't find central nor necessarily relevant.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Once again, it comes down to a very British belief that they are capable of being the best at something if they put their minds to it. When Colin Welland, Oscar in hand, said, "the British are coming!", Britain really believed that they were going kick Hollywood's ass. Twenty Hugh Grant films later where is the great British movie renaissance. It's a similar story with food, you are all so desperate to feel you can lead the world in this arena that you invent heroes in whom you can see no wrong.

My main objection to Opson is his racism and stereotyping. You obviously don't know much about the British if you think it is a very british belief that we are capable of being the best at something - the opposite is closer to the truth. Have you seen our football team?

We British also couldn't care less about leading the world in this arena - the vast majority of British people have very little interest in this type of food. They would rather eat 'British' food and anything too poncy or frenchified is anathema to them.

As someone who loves this kind of food I am totally realistic about the status of our Chefs this is based on years of experience eating food in France, Italy etc and as was mentioned elsewhere I really couldn't care less about an individual Chef's status just whether the food tastes good or not.

Gav

"A man tired of London..should move to Essex!"

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  • 3 weeks later...

:biggrin: Sounds like you all need to take a few days off work , come to sunny Cumbria and sample L`enclumes food for yourselves then you might qualify yourselves to give an opinion on the place.I`ve been five times now and I have no desire to waste money eating anywhere else.The restaurant breathes fresh air into me and fills me with inspiration to go forth and create and experiment for myself.Chef is working flat out to try and make a go of the business so pay a visit , enjoy yourselves and help put the place on the map.For me it couldnt be any better, having a place like L`enclume an hours drive away......what an absolute treat.

Anyone wants any info I`ll only be too pleased to help if I can.Check out regular L`enclume updates at www.sped98.freeserve.co.uk ( my homepage)

As for molecular gasronomy ????????????? :raz:

CumbriafoodieCumbriafoodie
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Ferran Adria says creativity is not copying, inspiration implies creative innovation, while copying does not.

Sorry - this too oft quoted statement has become inaccurate. To myself and Jonathan, Ferran Adria said what he really meant was that everyone copied, everyone stole from everyone else - but what was important was to be honest in your influences.

Jaime, perhaps your contact with English workmates/friends has given you a different view of how we think of ourselves, but your continual racial sterotyping certainly hasn't been fed by the opinions that you've read on this board.

"Gimme a pig's foot, and a bottle of beer..." Bessie Smith

Flickr Food

"111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321" Bruce Frigard 'Winesonoma' - RIP

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Tarka....went for dinner at L'Enclume on Tuesday. Truly memorable meal, the 8 course Taste and Texture £50 job. I have a copy of the menu but it's on their website anyway. Extra £5 for coffee/tea with wonderful extras and £10 for the most magnificent French cheese board. As has been said, the small crew work really hard and clearly believe in what they are doing. Meal was something of a performance but in no way was it pretentious...just a firm belief in drawing out interesting textures and flavours. Good solid wine list, with some intersting bins from Austria, the Jura, amongst others. Can't recommend it enough. Rooms too, so no need to worry about drinking and driving!

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