vermouth -- still kicking?

[jbonne]

not to dwell on the concept of the perfect martini, which has been contemplated elsewhere, but since i'm trying to get insights from the vermouth makers themselves, i thought it'd be interesting to throw this into the mix: martinis have come back, but is vermouth moribund?

after all, the hipster take on martinis is "dry," which may sound spiffy to say but is certainly a diminishment (and arguably an abomination) of the martini ideal. dry martinis don't do a lick to help the poor vermouth makers of the world.

so, to the bartenders and others out there: are people actually drinking martinis with vermouth? or is it just chilled clear spirits in a pretty glass?

[beans]

No.

[welcome to eG jbonne!]

[jbonne]

sorry -- not moribund, or no one drinking it?

[and thanks!]

[Lan4Dawg]

ordering a "dry" martini is like ordering a "medium rare" steak or a "three minute" egg. That is not really what the person wants but what they think they are supposed to order b/c they saw it in the movies or on television or read about it in a book. (the number of perfectly cooked medium rare steaks I have returned to the kitchen b/c they were not "done enough" has probably added several miles of walking to my life and the old joke about the man who applied for a job as a personal chef and got it b/c he cooked the "perfect three minute egg"; when asked how he had done it he revealed that he had cooked it four minutes).

I worked in a bar where we used no vermouth in martinis. We just chilled the gin or vodka and put it in the glass. One of the waitresses took martinis to a table where, sure enough, a woman sent them back b/c they were not dry enough. The waitress walked around the restaurant and told every one she met that the martinis "were not dry enough". All of the employees had a great laugh about the incident and she took the very same martinis to the table, apologized profusely for the problem and, sure enough, the woman took one sip and deemed the martini "perfect!".

I make my martinis about 8:1 or there abouts. People who do not even drink martinis like to vigorously point out that I am putting too much vermouth in my martini. I just continue mixing and point out that if I wanted gin straight up I would be drinking gin straight up and not a martini. Most people laugh and leave it alone.

So, in answer to your question it has nothing to do w/ a martini. It has nothing to do w/ the gin, or--Bacchus forbid--the vodka, or the vermouth, or even the garnish. It has every thing to do w/--as you so literally put it--"chilled spirits in a pretty glass". I some times think if you put gerbil urine in a traditional martini glass, garnished it w/ a kidney stone, marketed it as the latest drink craze: a "gerbiltini", people would flock to order it just b/c of the glass. Call me cynical (insert crowd shouting "you are cynical" here) but I have little faith in the masses.

[JAZ]

I like vermouth in my martinis. When I order martinis at bars and restaurants, I specify how much vermouth I want (it varies depending on the gin -- somewhere between 6 to 1 and 4 to 1), because it's almost always a lot more than the bartender would add without direction. But I'm sure I'm atypical in that regard.

If I ordered a martini and received a cocktail glass with straight chilled gin, I would send it back.

You can always spot a bartender from the it-can't-be-dry-enough school of martini making, because he or she will pour vermouth in the cocktail glass (being used to pouring vermouth in and then dumping it) and then, unsure how to proceed, will add the chilled gin to it, which upsets me greatly since it raises the temperature of the martini unnecessarily.

[enrevanche]

I am only an occasional martini drinker--bourbon is more my thing--but sometimes nothing else will do.

And I *like* vermouth in my martini. Bombay Sapphire Gin, please, with a generous slug of good vermouth. (If I mix them at home, about 5:1.)

Perfection.

[DrinkBoy]

For many of you, this is "preaching to the choir", but I'll add in my 2 cents here as well...

A "Cocktail" is intended to be a culinary experience. It should be reflected in the way multiple ingredients are combined together in a careful and elegant balance within which no single ingredient dominates over the rest.

To drink a Martini with no vermouth, is to not be drinking a cocktail at all, but a glass of cold gin. If that is what you really wanted in the first place, why didn't you just order it that way?

The "truth" behind the "dry Martini", is that it is -supposed- to contain a fairly decent amount of dry vermouth. Originally the Martini was a recipe that used -sweet- vermouth. This was also back in the day when the gin that was called for was "Old Tom" gin, a gin that was actually slightly sweet, and is no longer available. When the "London Dry" style of gin came out, people naturally started using it for their Martinis, but discovered that when they used this gin, their Martini's were better if "dry" vermouth was used instead of sweet. So people would ask for a "dry Martini", which meant that they wanted it to be made with London Dry gin, and Dry vermouth... using essentially the same recipe as would have been used for a "normal" Martini (ie. this ranged from a 1 to 1 ratio, to about a 4 to 1 ratio back then).

The whole "dryer" concept really took hold following the "Great Cocktail Lobotomy" (aka. Prohibition). When numerous "celebrities" would be attributed with indicating various ways in which they would make their Martini's with as little dry vermouth as they could possible achieve... however if you look at the "source" of these gymnastics you will see that almost all of them were borderline, or full blown, alcoholics, and they were simply trying to increase the octane of their libation.

When sitting at a bar, the conversation will often turn to "the Martini". The person I am talking with will sometimes go on and on about how wonderful a "dry Martini" is, or perhaps they will admit that they really don't like Martinis that much... either way, I will often request the bartender make me a "proper" Martini (-with- orange bitters, which I almost always carry with me), and allow my bar-companion to sample... almost to a one they are -shocked- at how good this drink is. Usually insisting that the bartender make them up one exactly the same. The only people who don't like this, are the ones who aren't yet able to handle a "fullon" cocktail, and prefer instead things like LIIT, Rum & Coke, or extra sweet cosmos.

As I recount here, "my" Martini is not what you would serve to some unknown customer who simply ordered a "Martini", but I would -love- it of bartenders would become re-aquainted with this wonderful cocktail and be able to carefully recommend it to folks who are wanting to share in this little adventure.

-Robert

[slkinsey]

Here is an interesting quote from Gary Regan in another thread:

The best martini I ever had. I mean that--the absolute best. Was made by Sasha Petraski, owner of Milk and Honey in Manhattan. He used the regular bottling of Tanqueray, and M&R dry vermouth. This was at a Martini competition at the book party for Dave Wondrich's "Esquire Drinks" and he, along with the other bartenders, was required to use those products. We weren't allowed to see the bartenders make the drinks so we had no preconceived notion of the preparation, or of who had made each Martini.

Sasha's Martini was the coldest Martini I've ever had, but I'm not sure exactly how he achieved that. What I do know, though, is that he used a 50/50 ration of gin to vermouth. I was blown away when he told me.

Sasha Petraski is known as one of the top bar guys in the City, and some in these forums have called the martini at Milk & Honey "definitive."

My personal opinion and experience is that most people say they want little if any vermouth but, if you make a proper martini with around 4:1 or 6:1 (maybe 8:1 if it is a delicate gin and a strong vermouth), they will say it's the best they've had. I would assert that, if the vermouth isn't present in sufficient quantity to be tasted, it is not a martini and it is not a cocktail -- it's just a glass of cold vodka or gin served in a funny glass. I'm very interested to try the 1:1 martini Gary describes -- although it sounds like extreme coldness is a crucial element, and I'm not sure how I'd get that other than pre-chilling the ingredients, which presents other problems (chief among them, insufficient dillution).

[trillium]

ordering a "dry" martini is like ordering a "medium rare" steak or a "three minute" egg.  That is not really what the person wants but what they think they are supposed to order b/c they saw it in the movies or on television or read about it in a book.  (the number of perfectly cooked medium rare steaks I have returned to the kitchen b/c they were not "done enough" has probably added several miles of walking to my life and the old joke about the man who applied for a job as a personal chef and got it b/c he cooked the "perfect three minute egg"; when asked how he had done it he revealed that he had cooked it four minutes).

I worked in a bar where we used no vermouth in martinis.  We just chilled the gin or vodka and put it in the glass.  One of the waitresses took martinis to a table where, sure enough, a woman sent them back b/c they were not dry enough.  The waitress walked around the restaurant and told every one she met that the martinis "were not dry enough".  All of the employees had a great laugh about the incident and she took the very same martinis to the table, apologized profusely for the problem and, sure enough, the woman took one sip and deemed the martini "perfect!". 

Well... that explains why my medium rare steaks are always overcooked and my martinis never have enough vermouth in them!

Right now I'm loving Plymouth and Noilly in a 2:1 ratio with 2 olives... yes, I'm a cretin with those 2 olives, but even more because I prechill all the booze and then shake the hell out of it to get them diluted enough.

My personal opinion and experience is that most people say they want little if any vermouth but, if you make a proper martini with around 4:1 or 6:1 (maybe 8:1 if it is a delicate gin and a strong vermouth), they will say it's the best they've had. I would assert that, if the vermouth isn't present in sufficient quantity to be tasted, it is not a martini and it is not a cocktail -- it's just a glass of cold vodka or gin served in a funny glass. I'm very interested to try the 1:1 martini Gary describes -- although it sounds like extreme coldness is a crucial element, and I'm not sure how I'd get that other than pre-chilling the ingredients, which presents other problems (chief among them, insufficient dillution).

Two words: crushed ice (not cubes)

[jbonne]

I some times think if you put gerbil urine in a traditional martini glass, garnished it w/ a kidney stone, marketed it as the latest drink craze: a "gerbiltini"

you may have stumbled on the next drink craze.

totally agree with you about the allure of the glass, with complete disregard for what's in it. sometimes i feel like martini glasses should be sold with ownership papers.

and personally, i'm keen on about 4:1 or 5:1, but then, i dig vermouth.

[beans]

You know, I just don't get the disrespect to the current cocktail trends.

I find it akin to making fun of a FTV show host's appearance. (She's fat; she's too skinny; she's got a big head; she's got an annoying voice, ad nauseum).

Moot and inane.

There, a thread with Drinkboy's and my .02.

[slkinsey]

You know, I just don't get the disrespect to the current cocktail trends. 

It strikes me that there are both good new cocktail trends and bad new cocktail trends.

What's good in my book -- and I have a feeling that most of the cocktailphiles on these boards would agree with me -- is evolving the craft, but doing so with a firm understanding of the roots a base in the "classics." This philosophy produces carefully balanced and crafted libations using ingredients such as fresh citrus juices, bitters, etc. If I had to come up with snappy description of this philosophy, I'd call it "moving forward by looking back."

What's bad in my book is exactly what Lan4Dawg describes: "chilled spirits in a pretty glass." Or, in other words, simple and not particularly elegant or complex drinks based on not much more than the newest flavored vodka, usually with something to sweeten it up. The devolution of the martini from a gin-and-vermouth cocktail to a glass of cold vodka is emblematic of this trend, as is the scarsity of bitters -- and, it must be said, the widespread use of the ending "-tini" for drinks which bear no relationship with a martini instead of a more interesting and unique name.

People should, of course, try to be aware of both trends in the cocktail craft before making blanket condemnations of all that is new. On the other hand, most people are afforded much wider exposure to the latter trends than the former, and not everyone is able to live in a city like NYC, London (and, no doubt, the right places in Cleveland ) among the leading proponents of the good new school, and we should have some understanding of that too.

[beans]

I suppose it is my unique view of being the pouring servant that I don't give any status to what current trend -- classic or new.

edit to add about the -tini thing:

If I made a variation on the cosmo and called it a _______-tini, at least then other bartenders would have an idea of what it is. I blame it on the neat category thing that is an essential part of the multitasking demands of being a bartender. Sure I could name it, say a "Starry Night" but who else would know what that is? Including my fellow co-workers let alone another bar or in another city!

Not that I am saying the -tini thing is right or correct, but to one who pours for a living, it does make some sense. And I don't feel that it has bastardised the word "martini" either.

Edited June 30, 2004 by beans (log)

[mrbigjas]

You know, I just don't get the disrespect to the current cocktail trends. 

I find it akin to making fun of a FTV show host's appearance.  (She's fat; she's too skinny; she's got a big head; she's got an annoying voice, ad nauseum).

Moot and inane.

There, a thread with Drinkboy's and my .02. 

Edit to say: nevermind yesterday's comment, which I expanded on in the appropriate thread.

I like me some Noilly Prat.

Edited June 30, 2004 by mrbigjas (log)

[jbonne]

What's bad in my book is exactly what Lan4Dawg describes: "chilled spirits in a pretty glass."  Or, in other words, simple and not particularly elegant or complex drinks based on not much more than the newest flavored vodka, usually with something to sweeten it up.  ...

People should, of course, try to be aware of both trends in the cocktail craft before making blanket condemnations of all that is new.

actually, i may snag credit for that turn of phrase but that's absolutely the problem. by one argument, the origin of the mixed cocktail was to create (as was described just above) a culinary experience through a mixing of flavors, hence the deft use of bitters, juices, &c. by another argument, cocktails in America were essentially devised to mask the poor quality of most alcohol prior to, and then obviously during, Prohibition.

if you subscribe to the latter, the modern evolution of cocktails -- which seems largely to be a matter of devising ways to fit ever more potency into an ever less-potent-tasting beverage -- probably isn't much of an improvement. the only difference being that distillation has improved to the point that there's really no excuse for bad alcohol. the only possible one is financial, and i'd make the case that those who seek out lower-grade booze are in it for quantity, not quality. and that should never be the case with alcohol.

if it's the former, i think there's plenty of room for innovation. in the same way it'd be folly to fault a modern chef for trying to reinvent a classic like cassoulet, i couldn't fault mixological types for wanting to update and overhaul something as noble as the martini. but turn cassoulet into duck pot pie and i'll get riled.

i wouldn't even agree (to bring in a related thread) that the saketini is a fundamentally wrong creation. the name is unseemly, but such is the way of language. and my preference would be to use the sake in place of the vermouth, not the gin/vodka, since the taste profiles are not dissimilar and it's a matter of substituting wine for wine. it's not a replacement for a really good sake, but it's an interesting and potentially tasty drink that enhances the taste of the alcohol.

[beans]

by another argument, cocktails in America were essentially devised to mask the poor quality of most alcohol prior to, and then obviously during, Prohibition.

Hmmm. We'll have to tap into cocktail historian Drinkboy for the accuracy of that statement.

if you subscribe to the latter, the modern evolution of cocktails -- which seems largely to be a matter of devising ways to fit ever more potency into an ever less-potent-tasting beverage -- probably isn't much of an improvement.  the only difference being that distillation has improved to the point that there's really no excuse for bad alcohol. the only possible one is financial, and i'd make the case that those who seek out lower-grade booze are in it for quantity, not quality. and that should never be the case with alcohol.

I wholly disagree.

if it's the former, i think there's plenty of room for innovation. in the same way it'd be folly to fault a modern chef for trying to reinvent a classic like cassoulet, i couldn't fault mixological types for wanting to update and overhaul something as noble as the martini.  but turn cassoulet into duck pot pie and i'll get riled.

Actually I tend to believe that most are not trying to replace or overhaul the beloved martini. Think variations on a theme.

i wouldn't even agree (to bring in a related thread) that the saketini is a fundamentally wrong creation.  the name is unseemly, but such is the way of language.  and my preference would be to use the sake in place of the vermouth, not the gin/vodka, since the taste profiles are not dissimilar and it's a matter of substituting wine for wine.  it's not a replacement for a really good sake, but it's an interesting and potentially tasty drink that enhances the taste of the alcohol.

What sake-tini recipe are you working with? The sake is substituted for the vermouth. And there are things such as wrong creations?

[JAZ]

Back to the topic of vermouth. . .

Which vermouth(s) do you pour in your martinis? My preference for dry vermouth is Noilly Prat. I got a bottle of Martini and Rossi because it was on sale, and I'm not crazy about it. I find it less delicate, somehow. In fact, I poured a martini using Cascade Mountain gin and M&R in my usual 4 to 1 proportion and found the M&R to be completely overwhelming. Ended up at about 8 to 1 to make it work with the Cascade.

I'm also a big fan of Lillet as a stand-in for dry vermouth, and find Vya to have a similar flavor profile.

[slkinsey]

If I made a variation on the cosmo and called it a _______-tini, at least then other bartenders would have an idea of what it is.  I blame it on the neat category thing that is an essential part of the multitasking demands of being a bartender.  Sure I could name it, say a "Starry Night" but who else would know what that is?  Including my fellow co-workers let alone another bar or in another city! 

Presumably, however, the other bartenders would have to have some way of knowing what it is anyway, right? I mean, if you made a drink called, say, a "blossomtini" or a "s'mortini" I can't imagine that they'd have any useful idea how to make one without some kind of recipe from you. It strikes me that, for example, Audrey Saunders isn't having this issue at Bemelmans.

Not that I am saying the -tini thing is right or correct, but to one who pours for a living, it does make some sense.  And I don't feel that it has bastardised the word "martini" either. 

Well, of course there is always going to be a certain take that will figure more from a sales-minded commercial/professional standpoint than it will from a connaisseur/enthusiast standpoint. And clearly there is no well-defined right or wrong in either of these positions. Personally, I think it makes plenty of sense to name a drink a "_____-tini" or a "_____ martini" if it is recognizable as a riff on the martini (others have mentioned a vodka-and-sake "saketini," for example). However, I have great regret over the number of cool cocktail names we have missed out on due to either user-friendly commercialism or lack of interesting ideas. After all, it's quite likely that, if it had been invented today, an up Margarita would be known as a "Mexican Martini" or "Tequillatini."

[slkinsey]

Which vermouth(s) do you pour in your martinis? My preference for dry vermouth is Noilly Prat.

I often use Vya, albeit in much smaller amounts than Noilly Pratt due to its much stronger flavor. Noilly Pratt is the other dry vermouth I tend to use, and is definitely the one I'll use in trying the 1:1 martini Gary mentioned.

I'm also a big fan of Lillet as a stand-in for dry vermouth, and find Vya to have a similar flavor profile.

Interesting. Lillet Blonde tastes sonewhat sweeter and less herbaceous than Vya to my palate, but it is an interesting one to use with gin. I've always been meaning to try a Vesper Martini (gin, vodka and Lillet Blonde).

[Jaymes]

Regarding vermouth, my favorite pre-dinner drink is called various things such as a "Half & Half," or a "Red & White" or a "Russo e Bianco."

It's half red vermouth, half white. Stirred with ice and strained.

So I'm doing my bit to keep vermouth in its rightful spot behind every bar.

[jbonne]

Hmmm.  We'll have to tap into cocktail historian Drinkboy for the accuracy of that statement. 

would love to hear his take. as i noted, i think the history is under a matter of some debate.

Think variations on a theme.

quite. i just wish most of the variations weren't syrupy, fruity travesties that seem mostly suited to pleasing mid-20s palates honed on the fineries of spring break. i'm rather a stickler in believing that booze should be tasted and enjoyed.

at the very least, these newfangled options shouldn't get the "-tini" moniker unless they uphold the spirit of the martini. "chocolate swirl martini"? two of those three words are correct.

but i'm all in favor of respectful experimentation.

What sake-tini recipe are you working with?  The sake is substituted for the vermouth.

pretty much the one you described. but i've also seen ones that omit the gin or vodka entirely, use the sake as a primary alcohol and put something floral or fruity in place of the vermouth. may be an OK drink, but it's a rice wine cooler, not a derivative martini.

[jbonne]

Which vermouth(s) do you pour in your martinis? My preference for dry vermouth is Noilly Prat.

ditto, though i find M&R acceptable when NP isn't available.

for whatever reason, i've never seen Vya, perhaps because the Wash. LCB doesn't stock it in their stores.

speaking of stock, it's been forever since i heard anyone even mention Stock. have they just fallen off the radar?

[morda]

quite. i just wish most of the variations weren't syrupy, fruity travesties that seem mostly suited to pleasing mid-20s palates honed on the fineries of spring break. i'm rather a stickler in believing that booze should be tasted and enjoyed.

I promise you, us mid-20's don't get spring breaks anymore than you do The spring break palate is developed specifically for those in the 18-22 year old range.

I admit that I'm not a big fan of martinis myself, but perhaps it's because I've never had a properly made one (i.e. not just a "chilled spirits in a cool glass"). I have some M&R vermouth and some gordon's gin/absolut vodka in the kitchen cabinet...and some green olives in a jar (just regular grocery store ones). Anyone want to give me a starting ratio to try? Or do I need to make run to the liquor store first?

On a related note...what about dirty martinis? I understand that they have some of the olive juice poured in. Is that considered sacrilege? I have so far perferred those.

morda

[JAZ]

[i admit that I'm not a big fan of martinis myself, but perhaps it's because I've never had a properly made one (i.e. not just a "chilled spirits in a cool glass"). I have some M&R vermouth and some gordon's gin/absolut vodka in the kitchen cabinet...and some green olives in a jar (just regular grocery store ones). Anyone want to give me a starting ratio to try? Or do I need to make run to the liquor store first?

On a related note...what about dirty martinis? I understand that they have some of the olive juice poured in. Is that considered sacrilege? I have so far perferred those.

morda

Well, if you want to give it a try, I'd start with 2 ounces of Gordon's and just over 1/4 ounce of M&R. One key is to get it as cold as you can -- stick your glass in the freezer for 10 minutes or so, use lots of ice in the shaker, and if you're using the big home freezer type cubes, you probably want to shake it (but not so hard it froths. If you have commercial ice (smaller chunks, in other words) you can probably get it cold enough by stirring. When I drink Gordon's in martinis (not my first choice, but very acceptable nonetheless) I add more vermouth (about half an ounce) but you may want to start with the lesser amount.

Sorry I can't help you with the proportions for the vodka -- I've never had a vodka martini.

If you like olives, by all means use them to garnish. A dribble of olive brine does, indeed, make a martini into a "dirty martini." I'd suggest trying the martini without it first, then -- if you think it will add a welcome note -- pour a tiny amount in.

[Lan4Dawg]

as much as I appreciate the kind words & understanding that I do plan on stealing the phrase when talking w/ some one not familiar w/ this board I must admit that "chilled spirits in a pretty glass" does belong to jbonne. This topic started w/ "what happened to vermouth" and has since evolved -- or devolved -- into a discussion w/ all things wrong in the cocktail world and I have enjoyed it immensely. I could spend half the night on the subject. ":^)

But let us give the Reader's Digest version:

most bars are under-supplied--they will have 37 types of vodka yet no Maraschino liqueur and 18 different single malt scotches but no orange bitters

most bar tenders (present company excepted) have no idea how to make a classic cocktail and it would take a manual and three lessons to explain it to them. It is not necessarily their fault. When was the last time some one actually ordered an Old Pal or an Aviation? and if people want a lousy martini and do not know the difference then you give it to them.

most bars are too busy catering to teeny boppers who want vodka and some fruit juice mixed together in a cocktail glass so they can not taste the alcohol but look the part--I am just waiting for some place to introduce the "Shirley Temple martini" for the younger set. Or would it be called the Shirley Templetini? to worry about classic cocktails or preparing traditional cocktails properly.

most companies are too busy promoting and marketing their "cool new liqueur" to actually be concerned w/ a real cocktail.

and if you can take a kahlua and cream and put it into a classic cocktail glass w/ the moniker "mudtini" and sell it then why not just change the name?