Wine+Spirits vs International Sommelier

[HKDave]

It's time to improve my wine knowledge. Friends in the biz suggest I take the Wine and Spirit Education Trust advanced certificate, but I'm now reading their textbook and they seem overly France-centric.

I recently heard about the International Sommelier program. Has anyone done any of these courses? I'm asking about the intermediate level courses here.

["T"]

I've done both level 1&2. Level 1 is very basic and only in place to prepare you for level 2 which is harder and more in depth than level 1. That said, I thought level 2 would be hmm...........I don't know, harder perhaps. I learned a lot and met some great people that I'm still in touch with and taste wines with on a regular basis. Also, bonus round, more women than guys in both courses. Go figure. Very nice.

[HKDave]

How were the International Sommelier courses on France vs the rest of the world? That's my concern with WSET program - their textbook has 170 pages on European wines (80 of which are on France), and only 26 pages on the entire rest of the world.

[Scott]

How were the International Sommelier courses on France vs the rest of the world? That's my concern with WSET program - their textbook has 170 pages on European wines (80 of which are on France), and only 26 pages on the entire rest of the world.

Dave,

you've missed the point, the WSET isn't france centric per se, it's a qualification for working in the UK wine trade. there are elements on EU labelling, and what can be sold into the UK.

it isn't a general qualification, it leads to the rigourous diploma, which then can lead to the MW program.

[HKDave]

you've missed the point, the WSET isn't france centric per se, it's a qualification for working in the UK wine trade. there are elements on EU labelling, and what can be sold into the UK.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. While the Brits do like their claret, there's a lot of decent 'New World' wine being consumed in the UK, so it seems to me that an open-minded UK wine trade qualification would still require reasonably broad knowledge. Also, according to WSET's site, their courses (in 2002 - time to update the home page, WSET guys) were run in 4 languages and 24 countries - including here in Hong Kong. They present themselves as much more than just a UK trade qualification.

Back to my original question - anyone know how WSET and International Sommelier compare, especially as to ratio of France/rest of the world content?

[Scott]

you've missed the point, the WSET isn't france centric per se, it's a qualification for working in the UK wine trade.  there are elements on EU labelling, and what can be sold into the UK.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. While the Brits do like their claret, there's a lot of decent 'New World' wine being consumed in the UK, so it seems to me that an open-minded UK wine trade qualification would still require reasonably broad knowledge. Also, according to WSET's site, their courses (in 2002 - time to update the home page, WSET guys) were run in 4 languages and 24 countries - including here in Hong Kong. They present themselves as much more than just a UK trade qualification.

Back to my original question - anyone know how WSET and International Sommelier compare, especially as to ratio of France/rest of the world content?

Well Dave,

you are entitled to presume what you like, but as someone who has completed this course, I feel pretty qualified to comment.

there is not a lot of new world wine consumed in the UK, in the context you are referring to at least. the average price of a bottle of Australian wine sold in britain last year was £3.69, and 70% of all Australian wine was sold on promotion.

the new world has not yet broken into 'fine wine' yet.

I find it odd, you are arguing about the content of a course you have not taken.

I am not sure about the sommelier's course, though I have friend who has done it, and I suspect it is about training to be a sommelier. go figure.

perhaps you could tell us what you want from a course?

["T"]

The ISG courses are old world heavy and with good reason. Not saying that new world wines are not as good but, as in most things, history counts and France, Italy, Spain, Germany et al have been making wine for much longer than Australia, US, Chile and so on.

From what I understand after speaking to different instructors is if the courses are taught in let's say, California, then there is more time spent on Californian wines.

Let's face it a sommelier not only serves and presents wine properly but also has to sell the wine to the customer.

Most Americans drink US wines most of the time. (oh shit I'm in trouble now)

Now let me qualify this.

When I worked in wine retail I would deal with many US tourists who are visiting friends for dinner and want to bring some wine along. Trying to sell them anything other than CA wines is hard work. Even WA or OR wines were a tough sell and if it was French, well, unless they were real wine lovers they were not going there.

Blah, blah, blah.

I know people who have taken both ISG and WSET and they seem to have enjoyed them both and said they learned different things in both programs.

[HKDave]

I find it odd, you are arguing about the content of a course you have not taken.

Scott, I'm not arguing, I'm simply making a quantifiable observation. I'm now reading the WSET advanced certificate course text and reviewing their mock exams, and they are without question heavily oriented toward old-world and especially French wine. I've also been talking with F+B friends here that have done WSET courses, who have advised me of the same. I don't think this is a bad thing, it's just that I'm equally interested in learning about New World wine, so the object of my post was to find out if the ISG courses differed in this regard. It appears I may have upset you somehow, if so my apologies.

'T', thanks kindly for your response, you've answered my question.

["T"]

Cheers.

[Scott]

I find it odd, you are arguing about the content of a course you have not taken.

Scott, I'm not arguing, I'm simply making a quantifiable observation. I'm now reading the WSET advanced certificate course text and reviewing their mock exams, and they are without question heavily oriented toward old-world and especially French wine. I've also been talking with F+B friends here that have done WSET courses, who have advised me of the same. I don't think this is a bad thing, it's just that I'm equally interested in learning about New World wine, so the object of my post was to find out if the ISG courses differed in this regard. It appears I may have upset you somehow, if so my apologies.

'T', thanks kindly for your response, you've answered my question.

Dave,

I made my point in my first post, you are perhaps looking at the wrong course, though what precisely about new world wine do you want to know?

For instance I am not really aware of course, that is not high end technical, covers much about australian wine per se at all.

Neither of your courses are probably that consumer oriented, both are trade based. But if you want to learn more about wine in general the wset might be fun.

[Dan Ryan]

My 2p worth, as someone who has done just the WSET Level 2 and knows nothing of the IS course:

The course is probably old world oriented as this gives a greater range of styles and traditions to study. Comparing and contrasing Chilean syrah with Australian shiraz is not quite the same as doing that for port and Austrian st laurent. The "fine wine" idea will also have momentum for a while yet. Prejudice, but takes time to overcome. But it's nonsense to suggest that new world wines aren't a force in the UK. They're extremely popular, with New Zealand, Chile, Argentina and South Africa all rising, and Australia having even overtaken France in terms of sales value at one point. At any rate the French and Aussies are neck and neck.

[Scott]

But it's nonsense to suggest that new world wines aren't a force in the UK. They're extremely popular, with New Zealand, Chile, Argentina and South Africa all rising, and Australia having even overtaken France in terms of sales value at one point. At any rate the French and Aussies are neck and neck.

Dan,

suggest you read, if not already, Harpers. you are in danger of believing the hype.

you will find that Australia in particular is very poor shape indeed at the moment. they have almost no foothold in he premium sector, and they dominate the supermarkets where their returns are often less than 1%. They control a sector of the market that no one wants - the unprofitable high volume, no margin.

this very fact is what has lead to the recent round of mergers with US companies that have established US distribution channels.

The US market will pay premium prices, but the 3 tier system means that they can't get their product to market. So they joined forces where possible.

The problems in the UK have not yet been resolved and some don't think they will be for some time.

A good example of why you shouldn't get too carried away by the OZ selling more by volume than franch example is this:

Supermkt: go ahead pull your line, what are you going to do with 500,000 cases

oz winemkr: but we were working together to build share, I need to increase margin

S: pity about that, but it's not worked out how we thought.

OZ: what does that mean?

S: it means you keep selling to me for 2.50 gbp whole sale per bottle, and I'll keep selling it at 3.69 to the consumer. I make money, you don't.

Oz: what if I don't want to.

S: well there are plenty of chilean, south african etc producers who will sell their wine at that price. besides what are you going to do with all that production you increased 10 fold at my say so?

Oz: but my wines are better

S: the consumer doesn't give a toss, he will buy whatever I put on the shelf at 3.69 - and does.

end of.

does that sound like a force to be reckoned with?

slightly simplified but this is what is happening today. I will repeat again 70% of all australian wine is sold on a discount promotion, and the average price of all bottles sold in the UK last year was 3.69

This will change with the smaller importing companies targetting independents, who are slowly building value added boutique brands. slowly being the word.

At the moment, European wines are still the bread and butter of the UK wine trade.

Ps. I am an Australian who lived for over 25 yrs in one of the major wine producing regions.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Scott (log)