Location, location, location

[ExtraMSG]

I'm interested in hearing people's theories on what types of restaurants should be in what kind of locations.

eg, what are the best locations for breakfast restaurants? Retirement community? Hotel district? Business district?

And why you think such would be interesting as well.

[Pickles]

Dunkin' Donuts placed near Police Stations.

[clayton]

The funny thing that I have noticed is that if the restaurant is good, it almost doesnt matter where it is. There are, of course, some cases where certain restaurants do better than others, but it is a funny thing.

I think that there is so much more to the success of a bussiness than just the location, it is hard to say what type of restaurant would be best where.

[ExtraMSG]

clayton, I have a feeling that theory may suffer from all the good restaurants that went under before you had a chance to hear about them.

Certainly there is more to the success of a restaurant than location, but that's not the question. What locations go with what?

Edited May 10, 2004 by ExtraMSG (log)

[NulloModo]

I tend to see Diners having a lot of success in college towns or in areas with a large retired community.

Your typical sub-shop/wing joint always does well in a college town.

Sports bars and brewpubs tend to do very well near major sporting arenas.

Small ethnic restaurants, health food restaurants, pizza joints, and bizarre new concepts tend to flourish on large univsersity campuses.

[Chris Cognac]

Dunkin' Donuts placed near Police Stations.

Oh my god....I have never heard that one before, I can hardly type cause I am laughing so hard!...just so you know, the whole "cop vs donut shop" thing started out because 20-30 yrs ago guy on night shift (while everyone else is home) had no place to do paperwork of stay warm and still be out in the local neighborhoods....so the donut shops were the only places open, kind of a no brainer....thats how it all started.

[Pickles]

Dunkin' Donuts placed near Police Stations.   

Oh my god....I have never heard that one before, I can hardly type cause I am laughing so hard!...just so you know, the whole "cop vs donut shop" thing started out because...

You DO realize I was being sarcastic, don't you? No need to be rude.... I lived in South Boston for many years. I used to say, if you want to live in the safest possible area, get an apartment above a Dunkin Donuts. That's where ALL the cops were at any given moment. Again...note the smilie:

[stephenc]

If you open a breakfast type place at the beach, there is no way it fails.

[NulloModo]

Any open-late (or all-night) greasy spoon style joint (good, fattening, sledgehammer strong flavored food, kebabs, basic mexican, burgers, pizzas, etc) will succeed next to bustling bars/nightclubs.

[LJC]

This has become my profession in the past couple of years so I can tell you that there are a lot of factors that make a "good" location.

Of real importance are:

Demographics

Psychographics (possibly most important)

Pedestrian Counts (in urban areas)

Neighboring Tenants

Transportation and Access

Visibility

These are factors to be considered in choosing locations. Your question of what type of rest. should go where is more a matter of marketing; i.e. what does your customer want? where is your customer and where is he/she willing to go for your product? The real question becomes can you give them what they want, where they want it and at the price they want to pay for it?

[herbacidal]

Psychographics (possibly most important)

Often overlooked. And the hardest to understand, and the hardest to make others understand.

[Chris Cognac]

What about the "cursed" locations...I am a firm believer in that...I have seen to many place open up and then fail in the same spots...over and over again

[lala]

Hot dog and ice cream shack at the beach.

Nothin' like a good chili dog at the beach...

[Moopheus]

I lived in South Boston for many years. I used to say, if you want to live in the safest possible area, get an apartment above a Dunkin Donuts. That's where ALL the cops were at any given moment.

In the 80s a friend of mine was working at a department store in the suburbs, when someone attempted a holdup. The manager in the back of the store called the Dunkin Donut shop across the street, and two cops ran over and caught the guys on the way out.

A good location for an ice cream parlor would be near my apartment.

[clayton]

clayton, I have a feeling that theory may suffer from all the good restaurants that went under before you had a chance to hear about them.

Certainly there is more to the success of a restaurant than location, but that's not the question. What locations go with what?

I guess I should have said it differently. I don't really feel that any one type of town will do better with any one type of restaurant. I think that there is so much more involved in the success of a business, that location is not the most important.

An example. There is an Indian restaurant here locally that is literally in the middle of no where. It is 10 miles from the nearest town, and halfway between two other small towns. Kind of at a crossroads, but not really. Literally, the location stinks, but you have to make reservations a week in advance, because the place is so busy. Why? Not because of the location. Not because the advertised. But because they do EVERYTHING else right. Great food, great service, great atmosphere, great prices.

All that I am saying is that, IMHO, stereotypes dont usually work out. Trends come and go, and trendy restaurants do the same. The key to staying in business is passion for your business, not simply location.

[ExtraMSG]

Aren't places like that Indian restaurant the exception, not the rule, though? If location is so unimportant, why do huge companies like McDonald's and Olive Garden spend so much money scouting locations and purchasing property. For good or ill, an Olive Garden or Cheesecake Factory is more of a draw in a town than most **** or ***** restaurants. They have instant name recognition, too. You'd think they would need a good location less than anyone else. Yet you hear about how systematically and scientifically these corporate powerhouses scout locations.

If location is so unimportant, why do so many high end restauranteurs open outlets in Vegas? Why did so many top restaurants congregate, probably paying astronomical leases, in the Time-Warner Center? Why do so many cities have restaurant rows? Why does every office building have a coffee cart outside and often a sandwich shop/cart inside? Why are there so often locations that can't keep a restaurant for more than a couple months? Why do so many bars sell fried and fatty foods? Why are the number of Starbucks in an area directly proportional to the number of SUVs? Why is Popeye's only found in black neighborhoods in the North?

If nothing else, just play the game. Assume that location is imporant (or don't, actually) and tell me what types of locations go with what types of restaurants.

eg, I was looking at a spot this weekend. It's a nice little building, the only commercial area in the middle of a beautiful upper-middle class neighborhood. There's a coffee and dessert place and a video store in the building already. There's an open spot with a very reasonable lease, so I went to look at it. Would a breakfast/lunch place work here? I question it. Maybe breakfast, especially on weekends, but who would be home or in this area during lunch?

It's not about fads and trends. It's about solid business practices.

[reesek]

i have a friend who's looking to open a retail shop and we've been going over these same questions.

an UMC neighborhood with no retail (to me) seems to be begging for gourmet deli (prepared food case) with tables and a small menu - maybe that also does sunday brunch and potential for special orders (party-food trays for the harried entertainers) - some shelves stocked with wine/dry specialty goods. there was a dynamite place here that closed (to your point) because it was wrong for the neighborhood. i would have shopped there all the time if i didn't live across town. the neighborhood it was in was not wealthy enough and there was no place to park. ever.

we went to a baseball game on saturday night and as we walked back to the car, noticed that the brand new krispy kreme was packed. people buying 3 dozen donuts...each!! it's the perfect market - kk=safe - like MCD's or CCF - you know just what you're getting. unless a chef or something truly outstanding makes a place a destination, neighborhood places work when they make residents' lives easier.

[ExtraMSG]

Thanks reesek. Again, KK is one of those places that in many ways doesn't need a good location, you would think, and yet they seem to put so much effort in to securing specific locations.

[herbacidal]

Thanks reesek. Again, KK is one of those places that in many ways doesn't need a good location, you would think, and yet they seem to put so much effort in to securing specific locations.

Well of course, because doing your research and due diligence is part of not assuming.

[FoodZealot]

Personally, I think the reason that the reason big chain restaurants/franchises seem to be so selective is that a) they have experience with what kind of site can generate and support the amount of income needed for their business plan (they have fewer unknowns), and b) they have the financial resources to either wait for, develop or acquire the locations that suit those requirements. i.e., I think a bad location is a negative that can be overcome, but chains don't usually have to take that risk and so they don't.

On the other hand, small business owners often have to take secondary or tertiary locations for their lower rent or more favorable terms, and use that to succeed in spite of their location. Money saved on rent can be "used" to differentiate oneself on lower prices, better quality food, toward general financial stability, etc. I suppose you can try to look at it as an "opportunity" or your angle on success.

As for your question about this available space, I'll offer more questions that you may want to consider. Is the coffee/dessert place open in the morning when you'd be looking to do the bulk of your business? How well do they do? Have you sat and counted their patrons over several days? In the neighborhood, do both spouses work or is one at home, who might be a likely customer? Do people live in nice houses but have little disposable income, or do they have money to burn on convenience? All these questions are different ways of getting at this one: is there no breakfast/lunch place in the area because there's an unmet need or is it because people won't patronize it?

I hope that helps.

[clayton]

More importantly, my point is, that one can not look at a location and say "this would be a good breakfast place." You would need to know people, have a reputation, have a lease that wont break the bank, have money for the equipment you will need to change it, and most importantly, be willing to work VERY hard to achieve your goal.

If you see that place as a restaurant you would own and run successfully give it a try. The only thing that will make it work or not work is you.

[phaelon56]

What about the "cursed" locations...I am a firm believer in that...I have seen to many place open up and then fail in the same spots...over and over again

My town has a couple good examples of that. there is one particular cursed location that stumbled along for nearly thirty years wit a variety of tenants, themese and cuisine types, none very successful. Eventually, it became Ruby Tuesday's and survived by virtue of the chain's popularity alone, yet the parking lot is never full. The Ruby Tuesday's at the local mall often has lines waiting outside on the weekends yet this one is never really busy.

Acorss the road and half mile up is our second cursed location - it started a s fast food place in the 60's and has since been everything from Grandma's Pie Shoppe, Swenson's Ice cream, a hot dog chain and several different Mexican and tex-mex themed joints. Today it still sits empty - decrepit and waiting for the next sucker. Not surprisingly, Olive Garden bought the adjoining property (probably at a bargain price because of the location) and is jam packed every night with a line out the door.

It is worth noting that of all the places that operated in both of these "cursed" locations, not a single one of them offered consistently good quality food and service or anything unique enough to draw peopl out of their way to eat there.

[LJC]

Clayton-

It almost sounds as if you are making the argument that there is no such thing as a bad location. Hard work, passion, dedication are all noble traits and do make a substantial contribution to some examples of success but it does not dilute the merits of a great location. Possibly the single most important factor in a retail business’s success is location.

Phaelon56-

I know of a few truly "cursed" locations too, but I wonder if there were any obvious drawbacks to the locations you note. More often than not the reason a seemingly good location is perceived to be "cursed" really has more to do with access and visibility. For example is the Ruby Tues. on a pad? if so, is it set back? is it just after an overpass? is it on a divided highway? if it is part of a shopping center is it out front? is there ample parking? If it is not on a pad is it in-line or on an end-cap? if it's in-line is it in the crotch of the strip? and who are the neighboring tenants?

[bottomlesspit]

Where I live, it seems that mediocre food is a prerequisite for waterfront (not just near the beach or lake - actually on the water) locations, so there:

mediocre (or worse) food + waterfront location

In the past couple of years, though, I have seen more waterfront restaurants going out of business, which in itself is not a good thing (there are few things more heartbreaking than seeing a restaurateur having a ciggie at a table in his empty joint praying for customers), but is a positive step in that it indicates that a waterfront location is no longer a guarantee of brisk business.

I guess since they're no longer the novelty they once were (at least around these parts), people are actually starting to expect good food when they pay through the nose even if they get to look at the water thisclose.

[LJC]

A friend just sent me an old "New Yorker" cartoon that is appropriate for this thread.

It is a cartoon of a shack in the middle of a swamp with a sign that reads Mens Suits. There are two people sitting on the dock in front and one of them says, " I question your choice of location."