Craft

[jaybee]

Steve, your review of the Craft meal was excellent.  Thank you. The descriptions of the dishes and the organization of the meal sound like a very enjoyable total experience.  I gather there were some real highlights and some solid plates.  Your wine list makes me want to hunt for an old bottle of Laguiche's Montrachet.  Did you bring your own bottle or buy it off their list? I've been thinking about going to March for some time.  Based on your description, I don't see how I can not go.  I have fond memories of the place when it was Dodin Boufant.  We got to know Karen and Bob Prisker then, and enjoyed many meals there in the 70s.  I have one question, after meeting you at Peter Lugers.  Eating as you do, how come you don't weight 300 lbs.?  Or do you eat just tuna fish and cottage cheese five or six days a week?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jaybee-Except for the champagne we brought our own wine. And I had a small can of Bumble Bee tuna for lunch the other day. How did you know?

Damian - Well it isn't that unusual. They know Fat Guy really well down there because of the articles he wrote on Gramercy Tavern and Tom. So there's a reason to tune in here. You should go and try it and let us know what you think.

Wilfrid-That menu is one of life's biggest mysteries to me. I can't figure out why I can't get my arms around it. I feel like hiring a panel of graphic designers to do a critique of it. Regardless of how many stars you think the charcuterie deserves (only one, it's just charcuterie  ), I think they will expand the selection and add more items to the menu. Some nice soft, spicy salami would be good. And Tom told us of some homemade prosciutto he has hanging somewhere.

[Jinmyo]

Stunning review, Steve. Thanks for laying out your experience of the meal so lucidly.

I do think it's too bad Tom Collichio decided not to join in the Great Debate but I suppose it's because he sensed what a temporal sinkhole it could become. And decided to speak with his food.

[Damian]

Not to rehash or reopen this debate, just to move this thread near the top to make it easier to find and reference (I couldn't get it to appear upon doing a search for it) for those who might be interested in what has gone before in light of Plotnicki's recent excursion and excellent post.

[Rosie]

Steve, After reading your thread I am going to stay on the treadmill an extra half hour tonight. Thanks for such a complete desciption of your dinner experience. I was wondering if in the future you could give us a precis before your posting?  

[Fat Guy]

Oh, my.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hey Fat Guy how are you? Are you just about to leave Vancouver? Your posts have been great. When is the next installment coming? You missed big stuff in the neighborhood. China 93 on the corner of Lex and 93rd is now China 93/Viet Grill. It's a whole new world of takeout. Actually, when I was introduced to Marco he said "Fatguy.com" Then I straightened him out. But Collichio and I were talking about you because you were both James Beard winners.

Jin-I think that lots of chefs read this stuff but won't come out of the bushes. I don't blame them in a way. Though it would be nice if one or two got comfortable enough to do it and then maybe others would join in.

Rosie-Have you considered 45 minutes?

[Robert Schonfeld]

Thanks to Steve for such a generous post. Do you just write this stuff out, Steve? I mean, it must take some time, no?

I have avoided Craft largely based on the fact that I am menu-challenged, although my wife explains to our dinner companions each time we're out that it amounts to nothing more than being a Jewish prince. Whatever the truth, I find complicated menus contrary to my notion of enjoyment at the table, and ultimately annoying, even pretentious. Which brings me to my second point, and to anyone reading this who knows me, I apologize in advance for being a one-note Johnny, or whatever the expression is. Here's my point: I've spent a great deal of time eating in Italy, especially in rustic, local restaurants, where the best available ingredients combined as simply as possible is a way of life, and where "contorni" - side dishes - are always offered a la carte. Craft sounds to me as if it has taken this time-honored tradition and wrapped it in a New York package. Every report is that the people behind Craft are the nicest, most sincere sort, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. Rather, it's the idea that such a simple idea, which is inherent in the culture in Italy, should be so complicated and so full of effort and obligation (and be so expensive) when presented in New York. Maybe there's no other way to do it. Maybe this explains why the kind of food and the kinds of places I so enjoyed in Italy simply do not exist here.

I have been warned by someone who is on intimate terms with Craft to stay away. But I'm intrigued, the more so after reading Steve's report. I want to go, but I want someone else to order for me. Call me a prince if you like, but I've had a lot of success with that method.

On the subject of the chef's reticence at participating in the thread on his restaurant, I'm just guessing that an artist might have the same reticence about participating in a discussion of his own work.

[Bux]

Steve, that was a wonderful post. As soon as Marco Canora came over to your table I had flashbacks of every nightmare I've had when I hit the "add reply" button. It's hard enough worrying about a chef reading my critical comments online without facing him. Then as I read your post, I realize I've done it all wrong  for so long. I've been nice to the chefs I've liked instead of going out of my way to make them prove their mettle. Currying favor is not the way to go it turns out.

Intellectually I'm on your side  regarding the craft approach to menus and ordering. What I love most about going out to eat are the lovingly composed plates that are set before me. The progress of western civilization since my chldhood can be measured in terms of the sophisticated development of the dishes served in American restaurants starting with the disappearance of the partitions that separated the peas from the potatoes and the potatoes from the meat on the plate. I've never found Penn Dutch dining to have much allure and I always feel like a fish out of water in a steak house. I'm glad Tom made that connection for me. I will however admit that friends who are comfortable on either side of the swinging doors of a French kitchen do not have as much trouble with Craft's concept as I do. In the end, I think it's your exceptional dinner that proves your point. What you got when you left yourself in the hands of the chef is better than what you believe you might have ordered on your own.

Of course my admission that I am not pleased to be in a steak house only serves to put everyone on notice that I'm the oddball and there's certainly no reason for Tom not to attempt to devise a restaurant that appeals to the rest of the city's diners. Assuming he's doing it better than others have, the burden is not on Tom to suit my preferred style of dining out, but for me to learn how to make the most of the resource he's offering.

Gee, did I just go out of my way to make that my problem again and not Tom Collichio's.

[Mao]

hell, I started the whole thread of damnation, and no one ever treats me like the Royal Prince.  Maybe I should stop using this obfuscuting pseudonym, and it will result in better meals. We appear all to be so famous here. Blush

[Jinmyo]

Jin-I think that lots of chefs read this stuff but won't come out of the bushes. I don't blame them in a way. Though it would be nice if one or two got comfortable enough to do it and then maybe others would join in.

Yes, Steve, I think you're right about that.

I think that the (with few exceptions) reasoned, civil, and intelligent level of discussion and general sense of good humour will coax a few to comment, at least occasional.

I think that the Q&A with Tom Valenti and Shaun Hill and hopefully others will also help with this.

*.Chef, if you're listening, feel free to cut in any time.

[Mao]

By the way, I forgot to mention that the above was a stunning review, Steve. Thank you.  I assume you were served very small portions, or that the meal took place over a very....very....long.....time.  The number of items you were served is staggeringly large.  Also, I am curious if the fact that your name is on this board has resulted in similar treatment from any other establishment.

[Jason Perlow]

damn Plotnicki. -YOU- are the "eGullet guy?"

I feel so insignificant.  

Sounds like a helluva meal.

[Rosie]

"Rosie-Have you considered 45 minutes? "

Steve--I always do 45 minutes. I gained so much weight reading your posting that I will  do two stints on the treadmill tonight.

It sure would be nice if Tom gives us a few words. Even his opinion of "famous" egullet diners would be appreciated!

[Jinmyo]

It sure would be nice if Tom gives us a few words. Even his opinion of "famous" egullet diners would be appreciated!

Oh my. More praise for tommy. :wow:

/run *.chef

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert-Sometimes I can write in a stream of consciousness. This one was harder. I started yesterday morning, wrote the first few paragraphs and the rest took me a good part of today. The issues here, for me, are subtle ones that I found both hard to frame as well as adequately articulate. And sometimes things are so simple but it takes a while to figure them out. Like this was my fifth meal at Craft (one of them at Craftbar) and it only struck me at the end of writing this piece that what is really eating at me about the place is that I want the meal "reconstructed." It's funny because as I sat down to write this response, the phone rang and it was a friend of mine who happened to be at Craft on Tuesday night as well. It was her first time and I asked her what she thought. "I don't know, I felt it was kind of the emperor's new clothes. The food was so plain." And if you aren't having the type of meal I had with a plethora of flavors, one can easily come to the same conclusion she came to.

But your response made an interesting point about "Conterni." I was looking at the James Beard Foundation website and looking at the pictures of which chefs won awards. There were Tom and Marco for best new restaurant with Craft, and there was Alfred Portale winning some type of longevity award for Gotham. And it made me think about how Italian cooking strategy has been transposed into the Amercian kitchen. I was even thinking of writing a post about it and then your response appeared and sort of included this point.

The thing about eating in Italy is that the tastes in each region are so well defined. One isn't going to confuse the taste of Liguria with the taste of Piemonte, even though they are contiguous provinces. What's missing for me at the types of places in NYC that we are discussing is that the ingredients don't express definitive terroir. Maybe that is one of the reasons that I am asking for descriptions of the ingredients and where they come from, so I learn to associate the flavors

with location. As for dining there, well it's harder than a kosher deli, but I think you can handle it without a meltdown.

Mao-I think that's the size of the Chef's Tasting Menu. I think anybody can go in and say cook me dinner and they will serve that up. I don't think my eGullet fame had anything to do with our getting any additional food.  But if you would like to believe that when a chef hears my name he goes into high gear and serves up everything in the kitchen that isn't nailed down, feel free to.

Bux - You know I am of two minds about posting under my real name for the same reason. But on balance I think it's a good thing. I don't think that we are unfair here. And I think that most chefs love rising to a challenge of cooking a meal for people who can really appreciate it. Your analogy of Penn Dutch dining is a good one, and even though they print the menu in the style of an ala carte steakhouse, the food arrives at Craft in semi-communal fashion. It has made me think that if I was at Arpege and they served that Diver Sea Scallop with slow sauteed carrots that I went so balistic over family style, how the dish would be ruined unless somone instructed you how to compose a plate.

Jin-I'm of two minds about chefs participating. If it comes naturally that's great. But I think this situation is a little forced for anyone from Craft to appear here. But you never know.

[robert brown]

Rosie, Tom is probably too modest, and most likely wears his stature and achievement with a quiet self-assurance, to care to write even a few words.

[stefanyb]

Steve,

Fantastic story and review of Craft.  I guess you're now a celebrity.  You may have the chance to influence our whole food culture.  Oh, the power!

On the subject of the chef's reticence at participating in the thread on his restaurant, I'm just guessing that an artist might have the same reticence about participating in a discussion of his own work.

Robert,

You are quite right.  Of course, Steve was using the artist/chef analogy again and I'm not sure we ever even settled the validity of that.  But be that as it may, what an artist says about her/his work is often wholly different from what the art critical world would say about it.  And, an artist is speaking from an interior voice. It can be important to not demystify the work by referring to one's personal sources.

How the work is received depends upon the arena in which it exists and who is examining it.  I, personally, think that a dialogue between these  elements is often not beneficial and I would, therefore, hesitate to participate in the discussion.  After all, I would prefer to "say" what I have to say on the canvas.

[Jinmyo]

was even thinking of writing a post about it and then your response appeared and sort of included this point.

The thing about eating in Italy is that the tastes in each region are so well defined. One isn't going to confuse the taste of Liguria with the taste of Piemonte, even though they are contiguous provinces. What's missing for me at the types of places in NYC that we are discussing is that the ingredients don't express definitive terroir. Maybe that is one of the reasons that I am asking for descriptions of the ingredients and where they come from, so I learn to associate the flavors

with location.

Jin-I'm of two minds about chefs participating. If it comes naturally that's great. But I think this situation is a little forced for anyone from Craft to appear here. But you never know.

About "terroire", a fresh look at this would be interesting and worthwhile, I think.

As for Craft personnel participating, yes, the pool would need to be cleaned first. Too much to wade through.

But, in general, chef or staff participation from Craft, GT, Babbo's or anywhere would be welcomed. And treated well and honestly. (Although The Right Honourable Bux now seems to think that swinging to the Dark Side might be the way to go. "Rillete? You call this a rillete? Pfui!")

[Andy Lynes]

Steve, a really fascinating post, I wish I could have been there!

I was interested in Tom's reported comment “How much can we change something for a critic? What can we do, give them the center cut of a piece of meat? There isn’t really anything we can do to make the experience not a typical one.” I know you are not a critic as such, but would you say your experience was a typical one? Sounds like you had a pretty special time to me.

As far as the menu goes, I think Devo summed it up nicely when they said "Freedom of choice is what you've got, freedom from choice is what you want".

[mogsob]

Steve, what an amazing review.  I guess I am in the minority on the menu issue.  If they want to just bring me food without any choice, fine.  If I have a choice, also fine.

While others have more experience with Craft than I do (having been there only once), let me just say that the meal, while not bad by any means, was quite disappointing.  I intentionally ordered sweetbreads as one of the starters as this is my favorite dish at GT, and the Craft verision was not even close (but still very good).

I also did not see any evidence of the "top notch ingredients cooked perfectly" theme.  White asparagus were not a deeply flavored as those I got at Borough Market the week before, and were so overcooked as to destroy the texture.  And the porterhouse, while impressively and deeply flavored from external sources, did not display any particular flavor of its own.  The ramps, I must say, were incredible -- but that was the only dish that really knocked my socks off.

I should also mention that the server was wonderful and, despite the buzz (which I hate), we felt quite catered to.

If Craft were on the Upper East Side and about half the price, I would eat there a lot.  But at $100 a head, there are a slew of restaurants I'd rather eat at.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Steve was using the artist/chef analogy again and I'm not sure we ever even settled the validity of that.  But be that as it may, what an artist says about her/his work is often wholly different from what the art critical world would say about it.  And, an artist is speaking from an interior voice. It can be important to not demystify the work by referring to one's personal sources."

Stefany - A few things about this. First, if you reread my post, I intentionally tried to make my example stay clear of this argument. An artist describing his own intentions can only be unchallenged. I don't see where subjectivity or interpertation comes into the mix? Now whether he was successful at his intentions is another thing. But my example didn't go that far. Same here. Hearing that Craft is like a steak house in Collicchios own words, while being an indisputable fact doesn't mean that it comes off that way, or is obvious to a diner. But it is helpful information in any analysis of the place. Secondly, we can have a whole thread about the history of how it became that artists own opinions about their work became inferior to the interpertations of their patrons. Where the rubber meets the road on that issue is why patrons/diners feel the need to completely exclude the artists own feelings from the mix? Don't you think that when you hear an artist explain what they intended that it can compeletly change your perspective about their work? Their must be so many works of art that one would appreciate differently given a roadmap by the artist.

Andy - I don't think my experience was atypical for the place. Yes we got the royal treatment, but that is only because so much of our experience was having interactions with Tom and Marco. But I think that anybody can walk in off of the street and get the same meal. Like everyplace else, you have to know how to ask for it.

Mogsob - Well you raise many of the historical issues of the Craft debate. But your big point ultimately comes down to the emperor's new clothes point. What's the big deal about, especially at a $100 price point?  In my opinion, there are two ways to use the place that make sense. One, ignore the menu. Order a simple meal of charcuterie, steak and salad etc. and forget about everything else. If you lower expectations and use the place like a simple bistro, it will meet expectations and the price point will be less than $100 as well. Of course, that backs us into the Union Square Cafe argument of why do I have to reserve a month in advance for a better version of what I can cook at home? Which means that our expectations are not totally within our own control.

Or you can take the whole hog approach that we experienced the other night. IMHO this is the way to go. Bux really put his finger on it by bringing up the Penn Dutch analogy. The way for Craft to meet expectations (yours and mine that is) is to order every appetizer, charcuterie plate and vegetable for your table. That is where the action is and that is where the

"top quality ingredients" concept will seem most obvious.

But in order for this formula to work you need to change expectations from Craft being like Gramercy Tavern or Gotham to it being high end family style dining table, like that place Fat Guy went to in Bama or wherever. And I think the key to that strategy (and this is apparant from my review) is to keep the emphasis off the main course, and to make whatever it is you do order for the main course unsual. Considering how they plate the food there, I think you need six people for this to work well because if anything, we were served too much food. Not in terms of how many different dishes there were per course, but what the size of each dish was.

[cabrales]

Steve P -- I've never been to Craft; your review is making this place among the first on my list to visit. What are your thoughts on dinner vs. lunch?  

[Fat Guy]

Oh, my.

Plotnicki: Yes, I'm leaving Vancouver on Saturday.

Oh, my.

[Wilfrid]

Steven, why are you being taken over by the spirit of Judy Garland?   ("Oh, my!")