ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)

[Ron Johnson]

I see your point.  Thanks for the clarification.  After enduring the hordes of tourists that invade my fair city for Derby every year, I do feel your pain.  The restaurants that cater to tourists do "dumb down" their food for that week every year.  However, tourism is a necessary evil, especially in places like NYC and Paris.  However, as long as we can continue to keep Gramercy Tavern a secret I think we will be fine ;).  As for my state,  I don't think tourists even go to the parts of Kentucky where one would find a proper country ham.  However, I would be willing to divulge that secret to anyone on this board.

[Bux]

Kentuckians are always welcome in my NYC. I haven't been to Kentucky in a long time, I had a few college friends from Kentucky and their families treated me very well on several occasions. It seems as if Steve P. welcomes them as well. I share what I believe are his feelings to the extent that when dining in Paris, I'm often far more pleased with a restaurant when I don't hear English all around me. On the other hand, I see tourism as less of a necessary evil than a major industry of both New York and Paris. In both cases the great restaurants of the two cities are part of the draw. It's self defeating for a great restaurant to dumb down its food. Ducasse doesn't do it and the others shouldn't either. I don't think Daniel, Jean Georges or Le Bernardin dumb down their food. I don't think Danny Meyer's restaurants do either, although I feel they may be more accessible to a wider range of American tastes. By no means is that the same as dumbing down. They can be most instructive for the less discerning, while fully satisfying the most discerning tastes.

Yes, it often appears that GT has more tourists than Daniel, but Daniel seems to have more out-of-towners than Cafe Boulud. All of which proves very little about the food.

Discernment works both ways. Provincialism is relative. On my first visit to Kentucky, I recall the mother of a friend talking about some fine hams she had sent north to friends of theirs. Apparently the unsophisticated Yankees saw mold and thought the ham was spoiled, so they threw it out. I nodded appreciatively at the time, though less out of empathy than out of the understanding that almost everyone I knew at home would have done the same at the time. I"m going to guess that a New Yorker would be the last person you'd ask about where to buy a good ham, and I won't take offense at that.

The fact of tourism is that a lot of tourists will go out of their way to find food they are unprepared to eat and these people are disruptive. I suspect the eGullet.com audience is not a typical cross section of the larger public and we should all be able to sympathize with each other whenever good food is threatened, be it country food, city food, home cooking or haute cuisine.

[Fat Guy]

I don't mind the folks from Arkansas and Kentucky. It's those people from New Jersey that really get me. :)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - Everything is a matter of degree. And I think Meyer's restaurants are better geared for tourists than most other places are but I think he has sliced the hair thin and they just appeal to a more discerning tourist. Maybe it's that Danny himself is from St. Loo and that creates the vibe. It's different in each restaurant too as I find USC more touristy than GT and Eleven Madison Park less touristy than either place. I can't get a good feel for Tabla but the cuisine is more difficult so they start with a more hard core clientele.

As for Paris, Benoit is a good example of a place where despite the number of Americans, they still can cook well. But Bistro da Cote in Paris is a perfect example of a place overrun with tourists where they dumbed it down for the beaucoup francs, or Euros I should say.

[Bux]

There's no argument that restaurants don't dumb down for tourists all the time. I only said they shouldn't. Clearly I don't own a restaurant and anyone who knows me, knows I'd turn away customers far too fast to make a living at it.

As I noted, I've seen tourists go out of their to way find local food they don't understand, but rarely do they try to learn about the food or understand it first. There are many ways a restaurant can be ruined. A conscious decision by the owner to cater to tourists looking for ambience, but low on discernment will lower the quality immediately. Once tourists take over a restaurant the locals can't find a table, the staff becomes overworked with diners who don't understand the food and may not speak the langugage and service falters. I've spoken to a food writer who had second thoughts about an article on local restaurants. The restauranteurs who might originally have been thrilled to have been included, later complained about precisely these things. Hopefully, the article will become dated, the regulars will return and the owners will once again be able to have the restaurants they had once loved operating. Good restaurants with the best intentions are often ruined by sending the wrong people to the right places. There are times when I question the effect of boards like this one. Sure, you may have a great side street bistro to recommend to me, but who knows what clueless Olive Garden regular is lurking here.

Perhaps it's no surprise that 11 Madison and GT are the ones I most enjoy. William Grimes loved Union Square Cafe, as I recall, precisely because it seemed so un-New York to him. Maybe the Times picked him precisely because it sees itself as a national newspaper.

[Andy Lynes]

This thread is quite incredible - if eGullet required a justification to exist (and of course it doesn't) this would be it.  I don't think you would find a more intelligent or well informed debate on the art of the restaurant anywhere, Steve Plotnicki's review alone is worth the price of admission, which is nothing BTW. So I though it was time to lower the tone

Whilst we're on the subject of tourists and commuting chefs etc, I do get the horrible feeling that much of the initial bad press suffered by Ducasse was due to his appalling lack of fore-thought at not being born in America. It seems that there has now been sufficient time to put this aside and  give him a fair hearing.

I hasten to add that if an American were to open the "best" restaurant in Paris, I'm sure he/she  would be in for a very rough time indeed.    

[Fat Guy]

I'm actually surprised that no enterprising American has opened a serious New York/Chicago-style steakhouse in Paris. I think it would be a hit.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steven - Forget it. The French can't learn a new cut. If they butchered New York Strip Steaks they would probably have to throw away the rest of the cow.

Andy Lynes - It isn't that Ducasse isn't American, or that he is French. Daniel Boulud and Jean-George Vongerichten are both French. So was Andre Soltner from Lutece. But those three chefs built their businesses from the ground up. They worked the room every night and they became bona fide NY personalities as a result. Ducasse, rightly or wrongly felt his concept was so polished and organized that he would garner great reviews without having to put in the requisite sweat equity by learning the city himself through trial and error. It was a risky strategy that he paid dearly for. His gross miscalculation was that the issue was one of culinary performance. But the issue was really one of cultural acceptance.

You know dinner at Ducasse should be the big meal in town. It should have supplanted Daniel etc. as the optrmal choice for important celebrations. But I can tell you that it has hardly pervaded our culture at all. Now this might be a sidenote but not an unimportant one. You can be in a place like Troisgros or Auberge d'Ill and you will often see locals dining who do not look like they eat 3 star meals very often and to be honest, look somewhat out of place. But those restaurants, despite their lofty status recognize their function in the community and are happy being local in that way. And in our own sophisticated urban way, Daniel etc. serves that function for New Yorkers but Ducasse does not, at least not yet.  And my wife and friends, who take my word for it are a bunch of accomplished worldwide eaters, are not nudging me in the arm to make a reservation at Ducasse for the next important date on the calender.

[cabrales]

"I didn't mean to express a qualitative or rank-order judgement about who are the number ones. I guess I tried to imply a tone that didn't come through in words. It was more in the spirit of "how do you/we know"? and "why can't it be "B" instead of "A"?"

Apologies for my late arrival to this thread.  I have eaten at various Ducasse establishments (Plaza Athenee, Louis XV, NYC very early this year, Bastide de Moustiers and La Celle facilities under Ducasse supervision and multiple Spoon venues -- although the last three venues should be differentiated based on reduced ambition and cuisine target), and have lost interest in eating at Ducasse establishments again.  I would agree that Ducasse offers the only "three star experience" (with service, etc.) in NYC.  However, unfortunately, some three stars, like Ducasse's Plaza Athenee, offer cuisine less suited for me.

On previous posts about Ducasse's prices, for me the precise extent to which his prices are higher than other NYC restaurants' would become a non-issue IF Ducasse's food could confer fulfillment.  If a restaurant offers at least a certain level of fulfillment, I begin to think any price a restaurant would realistically charge is justified (not taking into account wine!). However, below that level of fulfillment (which is relatively high for me and has not generally been met during my meals at Ducasse, Blanc, Pourcels, Taillevent and Bocuse), I begin to concentrate on how expensive a meal is and to compare it to alternatives.  I would rather dine at Union Pacific or Chanterelle than go to Ducasse NYC.

On the point as to why Chef "X" rather than Chef "Y" should be the number one chef currently, I would say that each diner's assessment of who is best can be deeply personal.  It may be the case that the public, or a particular group thereof, consider Chef "X" the best. With all respect, I would not generally feel compelled to accord particular weight to their assessments. However, within the E-Gullet community, I feel a need to voice that, for me and for many informed others, Alain Passard is the number one chef in the world.    

[cabrales]

I would appreciate members' input on how lunch at Ducasse differs from dinner there, leaving aside distinctions that are inherent to the two meals.  

Is the lowest prix fixe lunch still $65?

[Liza]

Cabrales,

As no one has chimed in, I'll just contribute that I'd gladly dine at either time. Let me know if you need a second at lunch, or dinner!

[Wilfrid]

Having only been for dinner, Cabby, I can only hope that lunch is lighter and takes less than four hours!  I presume you've checked out the menus on their web-site?

Actually, didn't Bux and Shaw dwell on this question at some length in the Ducasse thread way back?  I wish the search engine worked.  

[Felonius]

I paid my first visit to ADNY for lunch a few months ago.  I opted for the $165 prix fixe menu (with a variety of selections per course) vice the much less expensive seasonal lunch menu, so I'm not sure my impressions will directly address your question.  From what I can tell, my meal was no different than what would be served at dinner.  What follows is a note/review I wrote to a fellow board member about my experience for those who may be interested.....

My sister and her husband, both avid foodies, were in town and so I arranged for a special meal at ADNY.  I had of course read all the scathing reviews, but didn’t pay much attention.  I trust Steven Shaw’s judgment, and many meals at the top restaurants in Paris (although not Alain Ducasse) have convinced me that the French still reign supreme in many aspects of fine dining.  I found it impossible to believe that a chef of Ducasse’s standing would permit anything short of art to come out of a kitchen with his name on it.  We went for Friday lunch and ended up spending about 4 hours there.  We ordered from the regular menu (with a la carte selections vice the seasonal set meal) and a decent bottle of Chambolle-Musigny.  As I had suspected, the food was superior in every aspect – quality, flavor, presentation, complexity – it was all there in spades.  Artichoke soup appetizer was superb, followed by a lobster casserole sort of thing with morel mushrooms that was just off the charts in terms of richness and flavor.  I’ve never had better morels in my life.  A pepper-crusted bison loin main was also fantastic, and the quality of the meat itself was significantly better than bison had at 2 excellent restaurants out West a month prior (Stein Erikson Lodge in Deer Valley was one) where they are much closer to the source.  My sister had a vegetarian appetizer, a baked vegetable concoction that may have been the best vegetarian dish I’ve ever had.

For dessert, I ordered the Baba Au Rum, both because it is a house specialty and because I couldn’t resist getting the whole tableside show.  They have a special antique silver dish just for this one dessert.  I know the critics have attacked the over-the-top showmanship at ADNY (the antique knives, pens, etc.) and most of these practices have been discontinued.  I too am usually put off by excessive formality in a restaurant.  It’s the main reason I seldom go to Daniel.  However, I don’t really mind it when it is in a top French restaurant in Paris or at ADNY here.  They somehow have a way of pulling it off, maybe because they are the ones who invented this type of service in the first place and thus are not overly self conscious in the way they provide it.  Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed selecting my choice of rum from the trolley and watching them go through their Baba au Rum ritual.  I couldn’t help but smile and crack a few jokes about it all, and the wait staff smiled back as if to acknowledge “yes we know this is a bit silly, but this is how we do it and we know you’re enjoying the hell out of it”.   Had I joked like that at Daniel, I am certain I would have been met by disapproving scowls from the waiters.  Then of course they bring several more rounds of truffles, candies, lollipops, toffee, etc.  I almost needed a wheelchair to get out the front door I was so satiated with rich food.  This not a place for weekly dining, even if one could afford it.  

The wines were also excellent.  There were no whites listed by the glass that suited my taste, so the sommelier promptly cracked open an excellent bottle that wasn’t on the list and served it by the glass anyway.  I then chose a bottle of Chambolle-Musigny with the assistance of the sommelier.  I am somewhat of a Burgundy addict, and it is not often that a sommelier can find an excellent Chambolle that I have neither tried nor even heard of before.  ADNY hit another home run here.  I guess my only problem with the wine list is the markup. From what I could tell, they are marking the wines up by at least 300-400%!  That puts anything really interesting out realm of reality for me.  Still, they do have some rare wines that could not be found outside of France or an auction house, so I suppose that for those on the cost-no-object budget that it’s an attractive list. I only wish I could afford to match their food with a truly great wine for less than the $600-800 it would take to step up to the plate at ADNY.

Despite the largest bill per person I have ever seen outside of Paris, I left feeling that I had gotten what I paid for – more than I can say for some very expensive meals at other top restaurants in New York.   A trip to ADNY is like going to see a great art exhibit or box seats at the Opera – something sublime that can’t be quantified in dollar terms.  Plus, it saved me the airfare to Paris, which is the only other place I’ve had a similar combination of food, service, quality, and artistic presentation in one package.  

So despite the cost and the fact that I cannot afford regular visits to ADNY, I am a fan.  I have no idea what planet the critics were on when they blasted the place as mediocre or even bad.

[cabrales]

Felonius -- Thanks for posting your experiences  

[robert brown]

Sam made the pants too long, and Bill set the bar too high. In his reassessment of Restaurant Alain Ducasse New York, William Grimes in his gushing, breathy New York Times review this past December 19, categorized the cuisine of Ducasse, New York as “the kind of food that brings diners to their knees” and commented that “Mr. Ducasse, a chef in the classic French tradition, promised New York a great restaurant. Now he has delivered it.”

Using the occasion of my birthday, my wife and I took my brother and sister-in-law to ADNY two weeks ago. I must admit my high-end dining experience has taken place over many years and mostly in France; not to a large degree in New York where I have been to Jean-Georges and Le Bernadin a few times each, and the old Daniel twice. Yet, Ducasse has never tried to categorize his New York restaurant as inherently different from his Paris or Monaco establishments. In other words, one can only infer that our Ducasse outpost is meant to be thought of as no more or no less than the other two. Or, as Steve Shaw put it when the restaurant first opened, Ducasse’s intention was to bring the three-star dining experience to New York.

After patronizing a certain number of distinctive restaurants, I began to realize that many of them, whether consciously or unconsciously, told a story or communicated some theme or another. The ones that emanate from ADNY are, “You New York fat cat diners aren’t as sophisticated as we French, and therefore we need to lead you by the hand” and “We’ll add just enough ruffles and flourishes to distinguish us from the top-end competition”.

From the moment one lays eyes on the superb Art Deco "fer forge" doors (no doubt designed by the 1920s French master Edgar Brandt) that lead into the dining rooms to the large assemblage of saxophones by Arman (the reason one sees Arman’s work in so many fancy restaurants is that he trades them for meals), one realizes that this is as close as one will get to a luxury France restaurant without being there, and also realizing, perhaps, that these Essex House rooms are also a graveyard for fancy French restaurants gone awry.

Almost as soon as we settled in to our table in a small dark room (both in terms of the walls and before-the-feature-film-starts level of lighting) a server pushing one of the several carts we would see before the night was through offered up an array of Champagnes without mentioning anything about price. We then received copies of the menu written entirely in English, which not only was a linguistic slap in the face, but as English is wont to do,also makes French food sound less interesting than it otherwise might be. Nonetheless, the menu was interesting for several reasons. First was how restrictive it was in its offering of four appetizers, three fish and shellfish dishes and three meat and poultry ones. In addition one could order between two set menus; one called “Spring Theme” comprised of four etched-in-stone courses and cheeses and small miscellaneous confections; the other “All About Beef and Lobster” which was five courses, cheese ,and the same Friandises & Goumandises (the only untranslatable course on the menu), but apparently not one of the six formal desserts. The "a la carte" appetizers and main course could be combined in any way: two for $140. or three for $160. (The menus were even more, around $175 and $220, but don’t hold me to it). It was also the first menu I ever encountered that listed the "amuse-bouche" in such a way to make it seem it was an additional course.

Wine is a big deal at Ducasse. The sommelier handed me a big mothership permanent wine list and a smaller satellite, seasonal one. It took me a very long time to be able to choose a good wine without spending what it would cost to eat a few times in France French restaurants. To give you an idea, I captured a few prices of Henri Jayer Vosne-Romanee Cros Parentoux that Steve Plotnicki was curious about, which were $1900, $1700, and $1100 per bottle from 1990, 1989, and 1988 respectively. I didn’t look at the wines outside of Burgundy, but suffice to say, any list filled with Jayer’s wine and those of Coche-Dury (also devilishly difficult to obtain) is indicative of a great cellar. Clearly no restaurant in New York, or nearly anywhere else, has a comparable array of wine.

The cuisine at Ducasse NY, based on our meal, could be the best in New York. Certain dishes we had were indeed the best I have had in New York. My favorite was “Tender and multi-colored seasonal vegetables, truffled bouillon” that was in two portions: one warm in a truffle bouillon and the other room temperature as a salad that one ate with chopsticks. The vegetables in question were sliced truffles, morrels, white asparagus, lentils, and fava beans. It is a dish similar to what I had several years ago at Ducasse’s Monaco restaurant, Le Louis XV. The other appetizers brought to the table were “Sea scallops and Osetra caviar, watercress ‘vichyssoise’”; and Ravioli of wild mushroom and fresh herbs, bitter salads veloute”, both of which my fellow diners pronounced as memorable. Then my brother and I took as an extra course, “Maine lobster, roasted in a cast iron pan, glazed green peas and pearl onions, 'jus de la presse' ”. I can’t say the dish pleased me as much as the seasonal vegetable combination, but it was still very good. Nothing however disappointed us than the main courses. My brother and I had “Roasted lamb saddle, rubbed with savory accompanied by an eggplant and zucchini tourtiere”. Here the lamb was chewy and tougher than it had any right to be. My sister-in-law did, however, enjoy her “Grilled bison loin, seared foie gras, Perigueux jus, My wife was not enamored of her “Sole, "poeleed" whole with almonds and black truffles, Chateau-Chalon sabayon”.

Among the desserts, my brother and I had the “Caramel variation: crunchy, soft, and iced with salted butter ice cream." This rich dish was ambitious as it offered caramel in a variety of ways, with the salted ice cream serving as an interesting counterpoint. I rather liked the salty taste imparted to it. My wife had a dessert that Grimes made a big deal about: “Baba, rum of your choice, Monte Carlo style”. Offered four rums, including ones from Venezuela, Guyana, and Guatemala she chose the Guyanese. The baba was served with crème fraiche, which the waiter described in “Americans-can’t- speak- French” fashion as “sour cream”

The last wagon pulled in about three hours into our meal, weighted down with lollipops and hard candies. I found it to be a cheap way to hoodwink diners into thinking the restaurant was being generous. Having spent about $350. per person, I think we deserved more than that. When my brother and his wife left to catch their train, she mentioned to a maitre d’hotel that it was a big birthday of mine. Nothing came of it, a far cry from the days of Ducasse’s “spiritual master” Alain Chapel in whose restaurant the overhearing by a waiter that you were there to celebrate a birthday resulted in a freshly-baked cake: no questions asked and no charge.

As a kind of postscript or aposteriori discovery, I was comparing my menu to one that Cabrales showed me from Alain Ducasse at the Plaza-Athenee. While the dishes were not identical, it was obvious that someone (Ducasse, himself possibly) tried to use the same main ingredients in both restaurants, varying the preparations according to what good ingredients were obtainable where. The size and ordering formats in both establishments also were similar. It would be interesting to know more precisely how the restaurants are co-coordinated and who is responsible for the execution.

To conclude, I want to add that my meal at ADNY was a celebratory event that took place long enough ago so that I have lost details about the food; thus, my analysis of the food is superficial. My remarks also come off as more critical than they probably should be. I had a wonderful evening, very decent wines, and some of the best food available in America. The service, all executed by trained Frenchman, has no equal in New York, and even most of the best restaurants in France. I have not seen such attention, coverage, and precision in years. The heart of the matter, however, is that Ducasse still hasn’t learned that New York and America is not Paris or France ,and American food enthusiasts are different but no less savvy than their French counterparts.  Chefs from France (and the very best native-born chefs) who have settled here and tend to their restaurants on a near-daily basis seem to have a better grasp of what culinary and dining style works best on our shores. They also have more respect for their clientele. In these regards, Ducasse has probably come half-way from when he started nearly two years ago.

[lizziee]

Robert,

I am glad you finally posted this. We really did want to hear about your birthday dinner.

[robert brown]

Lizziee, it took me just as long to write it than it did to eat it. Thanks for your patience.

[cabrales]

robert -- Thanks for the write-up.  

[ngatti]

How very generous of you to post this.

Thank You

Nick

[Jinmyo]

My thanks as well, Robert. Your observations were very lucidly presented.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert - Thanks for the excellent writeup. Two questions. What wines did you drink? And what do you think Ducasse can do to make his restaurant more a reflection of his American clientele? I find that when he does his biannual mailings which list the two menus he offers, they don't seem not to be very artfully composed, and clearly lack excitement (the menus that is, not the layouts.) Isn't the real problem that not only do the menus seem to be chosen and tested in the Ducasse test kitchen, and as such miss being a reflection of a NYC lifestyle, but the cuisine itself (even when its at its best and delicious) doesn't have that much personality to it in the first place? If Ducasse's food had a stronger imprint to it to begin with, wouldn't the need for "localization" be somewhat relaxed? For example, Nobu's outposts in other cities do not have tremendous localization problems because Nobu's culinary concept is so unique and identifiable. Would you (and I as well) have this particular complaint about Ducasse if his menu was anchored by 3-4 signature dishes and the rest evolved from there?

[jaybee]

I add my thank you to the list.  Well done.  It would be to his benefit, if Ducasse read your post.

[robert brown]

Thanks for the kind words Jaybee, Nick, Jinmyo and Steve. We drank a 1998 Chablis Grand Cru "Les Clos" from Jean-Paul Droin (not steely and very well-rounded and drinkable for a youngster) and the 1997 Vosne-Romanee "Les Brulees" from Rene Engel, which was quite drinkable, quite soft and round as well, but not with overpowering fruit or structure. I think they were $80. and $120(maybe the latter a bit more) respectively.

Not having my wife handy since she was out of town when I wrote the post, I have a correction to make. She did like her sole a lot. (It was her first course). What disappointed her was her second course, "Fricasse of farm-raised chicken, brown and blond morels, crayfish 'cardinal", roasting jus". One of the three pieces of ch9icken had more membrane than meat and almost inedible and the morels had absorbed so much of the "jus" that they turned soggy.

Another way to put what I found off-putting, and what Grimes was, for whatever reason, not positioned to see, was the inherent lack of "joie de vivre" of the place. This does not mean one cannot have a rollicking good time there. It really means that the restaurant doesn't contribute to having one, and that you have to create it yourself by being fortunate enough to be there with fun-loving people or with someone you really get along well. I found ADNY to be overly-studied, perhaps even with too much French "snobisme". It tries too hard to hope to get the client to feel he or she is in some special, rarified restaurant without concerning itself with seeing that the client has a good and relaxed time. I have to admit, however, that a well-heeled college student wanting to impress a date isn't going to be aware of this at all. However, I believe that anyone experienced even moderately in restaurant-going is likely to feel that way.

Steve, on your second point, are you thinking that Ducasse NY cuisine would be more exciting if he worried less about using regonal products? I wonder if that badly-conceived book that was about certain American food artisans is a true reflection of an iron-clad approach or state of mind Ducasse has?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert - My second point comes down to that Ducasse would be a better experience, if what he was known for was his food, instead of being known for providing a three star experience. People like you and me (as well as many others here,) we want more than a delicious meal. We want inspiration. We want "that dish" if you know what I mean. That one passage in the solo that makes the music surge (the right word) to surprising heights, just to steal a concept from jazz. Ducasse is so measured, everything is so perfect. That's why the joie de vivre you're looking for isn't there.

[Wilfrid]

There may be an interesting topic in that comment, Steve.  I think people look for different things when they visit restaurants.  I don't think I would describe what I'm looking for in the same terms as you, although I understand what you're saying.