Dry Vodka Martini

[HKDave]

This is one of those topics that makes me feel very old.... I mean, a Martini is a stirred 5:1 gin/vermouth cocktail, served up with green olives in a martini glass, right? Not any more. Now it's an anything/anything mix served with anything in a (usually giant) martini glass.

My test of a good bar these days (besides how often I get comped) is simply what happens when I order a Martini for the first time. If I get a classic gin Martini without comment - even if it's 6:1 or 7:1 - ok, it's a real bar. If I get asked "gin, up?", ok, they're just making sure. If I get asked "gin or vodka?", that's not so good. If I get asked "Martini cocktail or on the rocks? (meaning do I want vermouth rocks)", I must be in Europe, or on a non-North-American airline in Business Class. But if I get multiple questions, or get handed a menu of colorful kiddie drinks that happen to be served in martini glasses, or get served a watery cold glass of gin with no discernable vermouth, I switch to beer. Bottled beer.

I don't have a problem with people ordering dry Martinis, but every time I serve someone a 5:1 for the first time - especially if it's a vodkatini - they always exclaim how good it tastes. Umm, yeah, that's why the drink has vermouth in it.... I think some people automatically order dry Martinis because they saw it in a movie or something, so they figure that's what cool people do - even if they've never tried a classic Martini.

Bars that by default do the 'swirl and dump', or worse the 'drop of scotch' trick to make the drink even drier, are creating a generation that have no idea what a Martini tastes like. It's not getting better. It's at the the stage where it's like ordering at a Starbucks, you have to order a 'stirred 5:1 gin martini up with an olive' to get a plain Martini.

Ok, I'm clearly just ranting now. I'm not that old - am I? Tell me someone under 40 agrees with me - please....

- Hong Kong Dave

[bleudauvergne]

I don't have a problem with people ordering dry Martinis, but every time I serve someone a 5:1 for the first time  - especially if it's a vodkatini - they always exclaim how good it tastes.  Umm, yeah, that's why the drink has vermouth in it.... I think some people automatically order dry Martinis because they saw it in a movie or something, so they figure that's what cool people do - even if they've never tried a classic Martini.

I'd had classic martinis with gin, and I love them.

But once a dear friend of mine ordered a dry vodka martini, and one for me. It was the first time I'd had one, and the vermouth level was good, and she and I were very happy with what we received, and ended up in a long evening of talking. I think I established a memory and for that reason, I began ordering dry vodka martinis when I was in a certain mood.

As far as olives go, the vermouth (which is definitely neccessary) necessitates the olive. It's like bread and butter. My putting capers in last night was kind of silly.

OK for the regular vodka martini, the ratio is 1:5?

Edited March 6, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[beans]

This is one of those topics that makes me feel very old.... I mean, a Martini is a stirred 5:1 gin/vermouth cocktail, served up with green olives in a martini glass, right? Not any more. Now it's an anything/anything mix served with anything in a (usually giant) martini glass.

******

But if I get multiple questions, or get handed a menu of colorful kiddie drinks that happen to be served in martini glasses....

First, welcome to eG Hong Kong Dave!

Now, sorry HK Dave, I can't agree with you.

Those kiddie cocktails are the bottom $$$,$$$.$$ line for us and for plenty of other bars in the biz as well. In fact many seek out places just for that purpose. That market segment is large so why not appeal to their pocketbooks and wallets?

Oh, and again I must assert -- that "martini glass" is in fact a cocktail glass. Any cocktail can be served chilled and up if that is the preference. It is just that these days, that has evolved to being commonly known and understood by the general public and new breed of bartenders as a martini. (hasn't this been said before here????)

Lastly, and most importantly, it is hardly an ear/bench mark, nor indicative for a "good" or a "bad" bar.

End of my point. I really loathe being a broken record that endlessly repeats itself.

[rancho_gordo]

End of my point. I really loathe being a broken record that endlessly repeats itself.

That fact that you repeat it doesn't make it true. It might be true for you, your bar or even your generation but the Martini was doing just fine for a loooooonnng time before the Neo-Lounge movement and beyond.

Britney Spears is new, profitable and touches a chord in the hearts of millions but it doesn't mean she makes music and it doesn't mean she's good. Popular culture didn't begin in 1968.

Just another viewpoint from an other old fart.

[beans]

End of my point.  I really loathe being a broken record that endlessly repeats itself.        

That fact that you repeat it doesn't make it true. It might be true for you, your bar or even your generation but the Martini was doing just fine for a loooooonnng time before the Neo-Lounge movement and beyond.

Britney Spears is new, profitable and touches a chord in the hearts of millions but it doesn't mean she makes music and it doesn't mean she's good. Popular culture didn't begin in 1968.

Just another viewpoint from an other old fart.

rancho,

I was relating that to how many threads on eG must there be rehashing the same dead horse of a topic?

I'm afraid the new is here to stay, as well as the old classic, like it or not.

edit: typo repair

Edited March 6, 2004 by beans (log)

[bleachboy]

Ok, I'm clearly just ranting now.  I'm not that old - am I?  Tell me someone under 40 agrees with me - please....

I'm 31 and I agree with you. There are about two bars in Nashville that can make a martini as good (to me) as the ones I make at home. I have discovered that the correct way to order is "Beefeater martini, wet, with a twist". After getting on a first-name basis with the bartenders, though, I can now just order "a martini". Joy!

Oh, and again I must assert -- that "martini glass" is in fact a cocktail glass.

My wife will vouch for me here -- due to your constant reminders, I have been making a concerted effort to never call it a "martini glass". By now I have to correct myself only about half the time.

[beans]

Oh, and again I must assert -- that "martini glass" is in fact a cocktail glass.

My wife will vouch for me here -- due to your constant reminders, I have been making a concerted effort to never call it a "martini glass". By now I have to correct myself only about half the time.

I blame DrinkBoy.

[bleudauvergne]

Wow, there is no way that I could have predicted that my question could have logically spun off into a discussion of the terminology of the glass. But logically, it did. Because by virtue of the vodka martini being a spinoff of the gin martini, it necessitated a mention, and HKDave's remarks about other spinoffs, and Bean's bringing the industry insight into it, and the exchange about it all logically follows. I'm sorry you have to repeat yourself, Beans.

On the other hand, I think that packaging can have a great deal of impact on what we call things. For instance some people call tissues - kleenexes. People in upstate new york get really irritated when people call soda - "pop". How could we know about the cocktail glass - with a box like this: in our basement?

Coming from a place where I'm constantly struggling with terminology I can certainly understand that there may be regional differences. Sorry it's blurry but there wasn't much light down there. [cleaning spiderwebs out of hair.]

I will make a concerted effort to find the discussions about glass terminology, because I find it interesting and I have questions of my own about that. Would you be able to post me a link to that?

I would still like to know the vermouth:vodka ration of regular vodka martini. Would that be 1:5? Thanks.

[beans]

Cross your fingers eG! I've sort of pulled together a wee list and I hope it is fairly comprehensive, but not exhaustive. Also, I hope my typo and screwy linking tendancies are kept at bay for this effort!

First note much of the discussion regarding that awe inspiring classic are often the same go arounds. We politely agree to disagree! slkinsey is a gin and samhattan sort of fella. JAZ is a gin liking but vodka disliking sort of gal. trillium (who often visits and posts here) is meticulous with the classics. (Not at all in a bad way either, it has sharpened my understanding and inspired tasting a few of them now and then... I digress!) DrinkBoy, while currently busy with the bar show in Vegas, is our local Cocktail Evangelist. He has taught me much from my very early, beginning message board days when I first stumbled upon Webtender and posted an opinion about one queneau69 member.... (I digress, again! ) Lovely Marlene and I enjoy a good, fine and ice cold wodka. MatthewB will never fail to yank either of Marlene's or my own respective chains with reminding us about what makes the proper Gimlet or Martini.

It is why I'm addicted and adore eG.

So with great pleasure, I respond.

I'm sorry you have to repeat yourself, Beans. 

Nah. Don't be. This is turning out to be a fun post, and thread!

On the other hand, I think that packaging can have a great deal of impact on what we call things.  For instance some people call tissues - kleenexes.  People in upstate new york get really irritated when people call soda - "pop".  How could we know about the cocktail glass - with a box like this:  in our basement? 

Marketing! Doing that FAB thing -- Features And Benefits. Clever marketers get the "What's in it for me if I buy this?" question in any way possible. Martinis are a huge comeback, sell Martini glasses!

[cleaning spiderwebs out of hair.]

Wait a minute! Yuk!

I will make a concerted effort to find the discussions about glass terminology, because I find it interesting and I have questions of my own about that.  Would you be able to post me a link to that? 

Sure thing.

I would still like to know the vermouth:vodka ration of regular vodka martini.  Would that be 1:5?  Thanks.

That would seem to be perfect, but as Sam notes, Vya is some heady tasting stuff, so it may be adjusted to 7:1. That is what I equate the super Martini bartender Sam is when I posted a "Martini=the slkinsey household Martini.' [And if you doubt his mixology prowess, looky here! Grace, perfection and beauty! The cocktail wares, Martinis and bergerka that is!!!! ]

Okay, seriously now! There are nearly 400 threads within this forum! The links are in chronological order, thus far, to the last date of the last post. Not necessarily chronological to to when it was first written....

An eG Index of Martini Links

Martinis

Gin Taste Tests, Which one for your martini?

The Perfect Martini

Drinking Gin

Martini Controversy

And you shake your tail how?

Best Gin for Martinis?

Martini and Vodka Tasting Discussion

Super Premium Vodkas

Vodka (as far as tasting it)

How to Taste Vodka?

Vodka, Is there really a difference?

Vermouth

Vermouth, Whilst out & about

Glassware

Why Martini Glasses?

eGCI

JAZ's Classic Cocktails

Classic Cocktails Q&A

Evolving Cocktails, Part I

(covering the Martini Renaissance, Seeking Out Flavor, Cocktail Trends, Garnish, Bar Equipment and a Measurement Reference)

Evolving Cocktails, Part II

(covering Glassware, Recipes & Techniques and some great Resources)

Evolving Cocktails Q&A

Extra Special

eGullet Q&A with Dale DeGroff

(inspiration for the opening quote and class, Evolving Cocktails)

Cheers! And happy reading!

[whew!!!]

[bleudauvergne]

Thank you ever so much, Beans.

[HKDave]

Thanks for the links, Beans. I should have trolled back through the forum before starting ranting on an old topic - newbie mistake on my part. I'll spend some time on that now.

And my apologies to all for calling it a 'martini glass'. I know it's a cocktail glass, I was just worried that if I called it that, people would *really* think I was an old timer. For the record, HKDave is 42, but feels much older this morning. The US Navy is on shore leave here in Hong Kong, so the bars were slammed last night. Everyone seemed to be male, 18 and from Nebraska, or local (apparently) female semi-professionals, if you know what I mean. A night for Corona drinkers...

A lot of kiddie bartenders don't know a cocktail glass from an old fashioned glass - but that's another topic Obviously I'm in the comfortable company of seasoned pros here in this thread <pulling up a seat at the end of the bar near the kitchen, where the old-timers hang out>. I'll order a martini (which I will carefully spec as Plymouth if you have it, Tanquery if you don't, 5:1, up, olives, stirred) at your bar anytime.... <lighting a small inoffensive Cohiba>

What? You can't smoke in bars here? You're kidding, right?

And why are the police here? What do you mean, Cuban cigars are illegal in the US? Hey, I just wanted a Martini! <sound of HKDave's heels dragging on the floor as the authorities haul him out the door for deportation back to HK ...>

[slkinsey]

I would still like to know the vermouth:vodka ration of regular vodka martini.  Would that be 1:5?  Thanks.

Well... first, I think most of us are expressing it the other way around, as the vodka:vermouth ratio. Jeez... keep up, will you?

There are more or less two schools of thought in terms of the ratio for vodka martinis. The main thing has to do with how one deals with the fact that vodka has very little flavor. The first school says: since vodka has significantly less flavor than gin, one should use less vermouth lest the drink become a vermouth cocktail. This implies a ratio of perhaps 10:1. Those who opt for the "token amount of vermouth" take this philosophy to the extreme. The second school says: since vodka has very little flavor, the drink should have plenty of vermouth so it tastes like something. This implies a ratio of perhaps 6:1, which is the recommendation of Gary and Mardee Regan.

Now, sorry HK Dave, I can't agree with you.

Those kiddie cocktails are the bottom $$$,$$$.$$ line for us and for plenty of other bars in the biz as well. In fact many seek out places just for that purpose. That market segment is large so why not appeal to their pocketbooks and wallets?

Again, I think this is looking at the same thing from two different perspectives. Of course you are right that making all kinds of "martinis" is a valuable way for bars and restaurants to sell cocktails and make money, and of course this practice is here to stay. So, from that perspective, you are correct that a "chocolate peppermint martini" is a kind of "martini." On the other hand, the other perspective says that "martini" specifies a certain range of ingredients and that anything that does not include these ingredients is not a "martini." This is why we call a drink made with silver tequilla, cointreau and lime juice shaken with ice and strained into a cocktail glass a "margarita" and not a "lime tequilla martini." This is the more purist and cocktail afficianado perspective, and is is equally correct.

A similar divergence of views is seen in the word "panini." Now, to Italophiles and Italian speakers like myself, this is a word that means "small sandwiches." One can have one panino and more than one panini. To us, the idea idea of saying, "I am going to have a panini" or "we are going to have some paninis" is ridiculous and wrong. On the other hand, there are those in the business who would say that "panini" has come to mean "Italian-style sometimes griddled sandwich," that the meaning of the word has changed and that they make lots of money selling sandwiches called "paninis."

More or less what it comes down to is looking at the issue from different, andf equally valid in their own way, perspectives. That's not going to stop me from saying my way is better, but isn't that what it's all about?

[beans]

I should have trolled back through the forum before starting ranting on an old topic - newbie mistake on my part.

Newbie, shnewbie. More like a breath of fresh air to join in the fun.

No apologies needed. Pull up a virtual barstool and light up a Cohiba and rant away in these parts anytime.

[JAZ]

An eG Index of Martini Links

What a great list of links, beans! Thanks so much for taking the time. And don't forget the ever-important garnish: Olives

Minor point, though, about your post:

JAZ is a gin liking but vodka disliking sort of gal

It's not that I dislike vodka. I think it has a definite place in the bar, and I like some vodka based cocktails very much. That being said, it's definitely true that overall I prefer gin cocktails to vodka cocktails, and for martinis, there's no contest.

On to other points, in no particular order.

Sam, another thing about the naming of cocktails as "XX-martini" is one that really bugs me, as a lover of language as well as cocktails. That is, it used to be that if you created a new cocktail, half of the fun was coming up with the cool name to go with it. Imagine a world without drinks like the Monkey Gland, or a Satan's Whiskers, or the Delilah. Jeez, even the Gibson got a separate name, just for having a different garnish. Now, even if a bartender creates a really great drink, he or she always seems to just punt and call it a fill-in-the-blank martini. It just seem so lame to me. (But, you got me on the panini thing. I had no idea. Now, how am I supposed to sell "panini grills" at work?)

Rancho/Dave:

I already know I'm old, okay? I can remember Beany and Cecil. Do you have to make me feel even older because I want my martini made the "right" way? (BTW, my preference is Boodles, but Plymouth is damn good too.)

Finally:

There are more or less two schools of thought in terms of the ratio for vodka martinis. The main thing has to do with how one deals with the fact that vodka has very little flavor. The first school says: since vodka has significantly less flavor than gin, one should use less vermouth lest the drink become a vermouth cocktail. This implies a ratio of perhaps 10:1. Those who opt for the "token amount of vermouth" take this philosophy to the extreme. The second school says: since vodka has very little flavor, the drink should have plenty of vermouth so it tastes like something. This implies a ratio of perhaps 6:1, which is the recommendation of Gary and Mardee Regan.

Who are going to be special guests in a Q&A in a couple of weeks. I'll pin a longer post about them and their background soon, but anyone who's interested in talking to a couple of cocktail masters should definitely check this out. If you don't know their work, you're in for a real experience.

[beans]

I'll pleasingly note that he (Gary Regan) has posted his second post ever on Webtender, yesterday!

Point being: He needs to be around more often!

typos

Edited March 7, 2004 by beans (log)