Per Se

[AES]

Or, are we all becoming a bit jaded with the high prices charged by some of these top tier restaurants?

Anthony Bourdain's article in the new issue of Gourmet is focused on this. It was quite an interesting read.

And I think I"m getting there. I haven't made it to ADNY because the $200+ each has kept me away - there's simply no way 2 people can get out of there for less than $550 or so, without any alcohol. And that that point, which Per Se is getting close to, it becomes less accessible and much more a every couple of years event.

[Louisa Chu]

At least they had truffles when you were there.  They were conspicuously absent from the menu when I was there not four nights ago. 

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tis not the season, for black nor white.

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It is still black truffle season - in France and with the right sources. I handle the black truffles daily at Les Ambassadeurs at the Crillon in Paris - and just yesterday received my standard weekly shoebox of baseball-sized beauties.

[zeitoun]

I share Todd's general opinion of Per Se, no matter how hard I've tried to love the place, I just don't think it is what's best out there in terms of NY fine dining scene. If someone asked me to name one high end establishement I would really want to go to, Per Se simply wouldn't make it to the top of my list.

I had dinner there sometime in the fall of last year and at that time I also thought that the dessert and cheese courses were particulary weak. The foie gras was a little dull and some dishes overall were far from being remarkable. There were two or three dishes which really made a strong impression on me, however it was not consistent from start to finish. In the past year or so, I've had better experiences at places like Atelier, Cru, GT or even Blue Hill.

[plpcolumbia]

Since dining at Per Se last summer I've been plotting a return visit, but as the prices get ratcheted up (when I was there the tasting menu was $150 and the wine pairing was $100) that return visit continues to get postponed.

At these prices everything that aspect of the meal is under the microscope and any flaws are magnified. When a dinner tab for two starts to approach $1000 - that's just way too much to spend for dinner.

I loved my meal and overall experience at Per Se, but I tend to enjoy myself more at 3 star restaurants in New York. I'm getting great food, but at a reasonable price, and I tend to be more relaxed about the whole experience.

My wife and I had a great dinner at Aquavit last weekend(with "beverage" pairings). I had the regular tasting menu and she had the vegetarian tasting menu. We had a great time, but come to think of it the food wasn't as good as Per Se...

Edited March 26, 2005 by plpcolumbia (log)

[Timh]

A comment I've heard more than once by (NY)4 star and (Euro)3 star chefs is that the 1and 2 star(3) are pushing the envelope to reach another level, while the 4 and 3 star chefs are just trying to maintain their rating.

[Todd36]

There were four of us at dinner, two of whom are not big drinkers, so we got a bottle of red and a bottle of white at $115 a piece, and I got a seperate glass for my foie gras. The glass was very good. The two bottles were both good, but I guess we needed to go way up there for real impact. The white we had at ADNY seemed better, in roughly in the same price range. The wine advice at ADNY seemed stronger.

Our total bill was around $1200 for four, which isn't bad. Note a club soda costs an inexplicable $6.

There are a couple of strange things on the beverage list that make me wonder. The beer list starts with Beck's Light!!!! Even having a light beer strikes me as odd. The rest of the beer list was a little odd, with special high end bottles of Chimney, but nothing like Anchor Steam. Looked to me like it was selected by someone who doesn't know beer.

Next was that they only offer a couple of maderias and the port list is limited. Both of those are surprises in a place of this calibre. Jean Georges has mountains of both. Heck, Eleven Madison Park is stronger.

None of the four of us had much luck distinguishing the two butters, except to note that one was greasier. I can buy much better Czch butter at Agata.

It was a good meal and I would go there again, don't get me wrong. But it wasn't a huge, high impact meal. And the lack of good, fresh vegtables was surprising.

[misscindy]

I think it comes down to the fact that there's no accounting for taste, in certain cases.  Having been to Per Se twice in the past year, some of Todd's comments clearly represent a matter of personal preference - both my wife and I have found the butters to be particularly exceptional, and the best we've had not in France.  "Oysters with caviar in a rich sauce" I assume is Keller's signature oysters and pearls, in a sabayon tapioca.  I find this dish to be mind-blowingly amazing every time I eat at (both at Per Se and at FL).  But different folks expect different things out of their food, and when a restaurant reaches the heights Keller's do, there's just no pleasing some people.

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I agree. I started looking at this thread because my husband and I are thinking of coming up to NY for an evening at Per Se. We ate at the French Laundry last year and oysters and pearls is one of the best things I've ever eaten - anywhere. It really is subjective.

[Todd36]

I agree.  I started looking at this thread because my husband and I are thinking of coming up to NY for an evening at Per Se.  We ate at the French Laundry last year and oysters and pearls is one of the best things I've ever eaten - anywhere.  It really is subjective.

Yes, it's subjective. My problem with that dish is that the sauce was all I could taste, cavier is a taste and texture experience and that was missing and the oyster seemed like nothing, reduced to a texture experience only. So I'm left with a nice sauce. If one likes oysters, the one I had the night before at Sugiyama was better, at least in my opinion. I could taste it was an oyster. I would argue that the dish itself is fundemently flawed in design, and if that is one of his best and most popular dishes, well, I guess I'm odd. The whole point in a fine oyster is the flavor. I don't bury mine under horseradish or cocktail sauce, I want to taste an oyster. Putting an oyster in such a sauce removes the flavor and the point of good qualtity oysters (they were I think Kumomotos or a similar pacific oyster). The egg/truffle thing at ADNY is much, much better if you like signature starters. On the other hand, I did like the lamb at Per Se better than I liked the veal at ADNY. My guideline on such things is the $3 bowl of lima bean stew at Polana at first and third. It varies, but on good days it tastes very good and some of the stuff at Per Se wasn't crossing that threshold. It was a good meal, but at $205 with the supplement I expect distinct flavors of fresh vegetables (which were completly missing in the meal) and interesting sauces that complement the meat and fish. Per Se didn't deliver as much as I would have expected.

[bilrus]

Todd36 - I've noticed that in most of your posts you compare every dish or element at Per Se to a comparable one at another restaurant. The Oyster was better at X. The wine list was better at Y.

But what about the combined expreience of all the courses, all the wines, and the rest of the experience?

Isn't it holding Per Se to too high a standard (especially coming from someone who seems to have dined in as many high end places as you have) to expect that every element of every dish at Per Se would be the exemplar.

This seems to be another example of a place like Per Se falling victim to its own heightened expectations.

[Todd36]

Todd36 - I've noticed that in most of your posts you compare every dish or element at Per Se to a comparable one at another restaurant.  The Oyster was better at X.  The wine list was better at Y. 

But what about the combined expreience of all the courses, all the wines, and the rest of the experience? 

Isn't it holding Per Se to too high a standard (especially coming from someone who seems to have dined in as many high end places as you have) to expect that every element of every dish at Per Se would be the exemplar.

This seems to be another example of a place like Per Se falling victim to its own heightened expectations.

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It's a four star NYT restaurant, there are I think six of those in New York, out of something like 10,000 restautants. It's also rather expensive. It should be held to the highest standard. The room is very pleasent. The tables are widely spaced. The service is fine, but not exceptional. We had to shout to get someone's attention to talk about wine. I think they were slightly put off by one of our party wearing a not well ironed shirt with a not well matching tie and jacket, probably figuring he (and we) were poor country bumpkins. He's a trader at Goldman, which should be their core audience (don't judge people by their appearance!!!) It was a late night reservation, and they seemed rushed. Bread did not appear until well into the meal. Any one of a number of restaurants in NY have equal or better service. In terms of the room itself, yes, its nice. Danube is more comfortable and romantic and the view is much better at Asiante elsewhere in Time Warner (but the one time I ate there the food was not great). Neither the service nor the room nor the view are strong enough to boost the rating. That leaves the food.

I admit I eat out a lot. Too much I should say. I don't eat out in high end fine dining all that much, they don't pay me enough!!! Whatever the price range of a restaurant, I have to balance the food against its competition. Sugiyama does better cooked food than say Nobu, in roughly the same price range. Per Se did similar food, perhaps slightly better, to Danube at twice the price. The whole point in thinking about restaurants is thinking about what their food is like as compared to their competitors. The chocolate mousee at La Vealu D'or, a way out of its prime place (that I liked) was better than Per Se, in a $27 prix fix no less. Not to mention that they did a better job toasting their bread than Per Se did toasting their brioche. The food overall at Per Se is significantly better BTW, but its also about 6 times the price, and I'm not sure how that fits in the price/value equation. If I don't compare a restaurant to others, I might as well save money and only eat in McDonald's, so I will never know what better food is.

I enjoyed my experience at Per Se, but I've had more enjoyable meals elsewhere in NYC. Jean Georges, Danube, Sugiyama, ADNY were all more enjoyable for me, either because of the service, food, price or the atmosphere. I'll go back to Per Se at some point.

And offering Beck's Light and such a weak selection of port and maderia makes me wonder. Much better port and maderia last time I was at Balthazar.

[bilrus]

I enjoyed my experience at Per Se, but I've had more enjoyable meals elsewhere in NYC.  Jean Georges, Danube, Sugiyama, ADNY were all more enjoyable for me, either because of the service, food, price or the atmosphere.  I'll go back to Per Se at some point.

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That's a fair comparison.

[iheartoffal]

Did you and I eat at the same restaurant? Did they really seem put off by your dress? My friends and I were obviously not gentry. We didn't have Versace suits or Rolex watches. I daresay we probably even looked pretty humble--at least me, with my old wool jacket and tenuously matching attire. This didn't even seem to register with the staff there at all. As a matter of fact, I think it made it all the more apparent that we were there purely for the overall experience; not just to be seen--a fact which all of the staff we dealt with seemed to appreciate.

The service, from my perspective, was nearly flawless. There was a seemingly lengthy wait to be given menus etc once we were seated, but after that they didn't skip a beat. There was someone there whenever we needed anything, whether or not we realized we needed it. The waiter had an informed answer for every question we had--informative but never pedantic, enthusiastic but never annoying. It was truly remarkable.

I don't know. I believe you when you say that your evening was less than stellar, but it's just so sharp in contrast to the evening I had there, which was only a day or two before you went.

[foodexile]

Did you and I eat at the same restaurant?  Did they really seem put off by your dress?  My friends and I were obviously not gentry.  We didn't have Versace suits or Rolex watches. I daresay we probably even looked pretty humble--at least me, with my old wool jacket and tenuously matching attire.  This didn't even seem to register with the staff there at all.  As a matter of fact, I think it made it all the more apparent that we were there purely for the overall experience; not just to be seen--a fact which all of the staff we dealt with seemed to appreciate. 

The service, from my perspective, was nearly flawless.  There was a seemingly lengthy wait to be given menus etc once we were seated, but after that they didn't skip a beat.  There was someone there whenever we needed anything, whether or not we realized we needed it.  The waiter had an informed answer for every question we had--informative but never pedantic, enthusiastic but never annoying.  It was truly remarkable. 

I don't know.  I believe you when you say that your evening was less than stellar, but it's just so sharp in contrast to the evening I had there, which was only a day or two before you went.

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As another member of iheartoffal's party, I can only say - I agree.

The service was flawless - literally (I kind of liked waiting for the menus - got to soak everything in)

Each course, aside from one, surpassed my expectations, including the cheese course.

I am trying to figure out how to get back there as soon as possible. And I mean sooner than you would think.

[bloviatrix]

I'm equally suprised that you feel your service was poor because of the way one of your party was dressed. My brother wore the most butt-ugly jacket I have ever seen when we ate at Per Se. I'm not even sure he wore a tie that night. And yet our service was impecable. I feel pretty confident that the staff at Per Se are well aware that there's no direct correlation between wealth and attire.

[Todd36]

I'm equally suprised that you feel your service was poor because of the way one of your party was dressed.  My brother wore the most butt-ugly jacket I have ever seen when we ate at Per Se.  I'm not even sure he wore a tie that night.  And yet our service was impecable.  I feel pretty confident that the staff at Per Se are well aware that there's no direct correlation between wealth and attire.

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The service we got was fine, just not quite impeccable. Today is brunch at Nougatine, I'll see how that is, since Per Se is fresh in my mind.

[Todd36]

As another member of iheartoffal's party, I can only say - I agree.

The service was flawless - literally (I kind of liked waiting for the menus - got to soak everything in)

Each course, aside from one, surpassed my expectations, including the cheese course.

I am trying to figure out how to get back there as soon as possible.  And I mean sooner than you would think.

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Which course didn't you like? The cheese they gave us was I think a cow's milk cheese from California. It was Ok, nothing special. I can buy any one of a number of things that are more interesting at Murry's. The three other people in my party plain didn't like it (my reaction against it wasn't so strong). Also, having just one cheese seemed a little off for a place of this level and they didn't serve butter with the cheese, which is the way I like it (but bad for my waistline). ADNY wheels out this cheese cart with about 25 cheeses and you get to pick I think three. It's a different level.

Don't get me wrong, Per Se is a fine restaurant. But it didn't excite me to the levels I think a four star should, and there were enough flaws and cases where lower rated restaurants offered a better course to make me wonder. I'm also noting that a couple of other people on this thread are also saying it was good, but not quite there, which makes my think my opinion is not alone.

[foodexile]

I didn't love the final vegetable course - a burnt flour pasta. But like I said, everything else was fantastic.

[Bux]

Yes, it's subjective.  My problem with that dish is that the sauce was all I could taste, cavier is a taste and texture experience and that was missing and the oyster seemed like nothing, reduced to a texture experience only.  So I'm left with a nice sauce.  If one likes oysters, the one I had the night before at Sugiyama was better, at least in my opinion.  I could taste it was an oyster.  I would argue that the dish itself is fundemently flawed in design, and if that is one of his best and most popular dishes, well, I guess I'm odd.  The whole point in a fine oyster is the flavor. I don't bury mine under horseradish or cocktail sauce, I want to taste an oyster.  Putting an oyster in such a sauce removes the flavor and the point of good qualtity oysters (they were I think Kumomotos or a similar pacific oyster).

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The problem for me is that based on what you say, I believe you went to Per Se with a fixed image of the perfect restauant as one other than what Per Se is or is trying to be. I'm surprised you didn't either rule out Per Se as a reasonable choice or go there simply to broaden your horizens of what fine dining could offer. If you are convinced that what they did here was wrong headed, I can give you a list of restaurants to avoid that have three Michelin stars.

I love raw oysters. That doesn't preclude my appreciation for what a creative chef might do with one nor do I have any preconceptions of what that might be or where limits should be set. I love cheese. I wouldn't expect or condsider it appropriate to serve butter with cheese. In essence, I suppose I am saying I find your subjective standards questionable from my subjective point of view. I found areas in which Per Se might improve a few dishes, but to imply there were fundamental flaws in the design of the cuisine serves only to make your comments all too subjective and it colors the rest of your comments.

I'm still trying to understand the context of your cheese course. I had lunch at Per Se and don't remember a cheese course. Is one offered at dinner and not lunch? Is cheese an optional course? Was the cheese listed on the menu as a course? Was it offered as a complimentry course? Although there was no cheese mentioned on the chef's tating menu, I noticed a choice of four composed cheese courses on the carte.

[chefseanbrock]

amazing dinner at per se on easter..............unreal

what a restaurant!

[Dryden]

I'm not going to be impressed by lobster cooked in butter, that's a standard dish

To the best of my knowledge, Thomas Keller is generally credited with the person who invented this dish, so while it may be standard by now, he has a right to be serving it. Joel Robuchon can still make his mashed potatoes, although others may be doing it as well, and Jean Georges can make his flourless chocolate cake.

[iheartoffal]

I'm not going to be impressed by lobster cooked in butter, that's a standard dish

To the best of my knowledge, Thomas Keller is generally credited with the person who invented this dish, so while it may be standard by now, he has a right to be serving it. Joel Robuchon can still make his mashed potatoes, although others may be doing it as well, and Jean Georges can make his flourless chocolate cake.

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I don't think Keller came up with the idea of poaching lobster in butter. Are you talking about poaching it sous vide?

[robert40]

Thomas Kellers butter poached lobster.

See link below.

http://labellecuisine.com/Archives/surpris...ster%20dish.htm

Edited March 30, 2005 by robert40 (log)

[Weissman]

I also went to Per Se this past Easter Sunday in celebration of my birthday. I went with a group of five. All but one had the chef's tasting, and would have to say that it was by far one of the best meals ever in my twenty-eight years.

I was happy to finally get to taste oyster and pearls as well as macaroni and cheese. The entire meal was great. The only item I questioned was the smoked bittersweet chocolate on the chocolate tray.

My mom's boyfriend had to have olive oil and balsalmic vinegar with his bread much to my dismay.

The presentation of the three fine extra virgin olive oils was well demonstrated with a description of the tastes and areas from where they came. And the balsalmic vinegar was aged 25 years. They were presented in four different containers on one plate in order from least mild to intense by the size of their serving ramekin. I apologized to him later. However, I still preferred my salted butter with my bread: especially, the potato beer bread.

Also it was cool to see Richard Belzer from Law & Order having dinner with a party of four.

[Todd36]

Thomas Kellers butter poached lobster.

See link below.

http://labellecuisine.com/Archives/surpris...ster%20dish.htm

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Yes, I vaguely rembered that article from somehwere and wondered if someone would mention it!!! The dish was fine, but it wasn't memorable, and I can't rememeber what it was served with, not much. You can give credit to Keller for making the dish popular, but as the article you point to notes, the dish was known before him. Again, for over $200 in what is supposed to be one of the 6 best restuarants in NYC, I expect something a little more than a dish that can be widely matched elsewhere. Jean Georges chocolate cake, for which he is also given credit, always seem to better than what you can find elsewhere.

[rich]

So who was in charge of Per Se's kitchen last night? Jonathan was hanging out with me at the Children of Bellevue fundraiser.