Per Se

[James Kessler]

I did some figuring: Since an average pour size of a glass of wine ranges from 4-5 oz., (or sometimes 3oz for a very small pour size,) eight glasses times a party of four is gonna be about 128 oz. (1 gallon) of wine.

A 750ml bottle of wine is approximately 25 oz. So, that means the party of four is consuming a little more than five bottles of wine for dinner. That means the cost per bottle is roughly $120. Each person gets about 1.25 bottles to themselves.

Now, since I'm driving to Per Se that night, and typically do NOT consume an entire bottle of wine by myself in one sitting, I don't think the wine pairing is a very appropriate option for me that night.

I would however, consider splitting 3 or so bottles of wine with the whole table. That DOES mean drinking "unmatched" wines with the courses, but I think there are enough versatile wines out there that strategically choosing 3 bottles should do a pretty decent job of matching almost anything that they can put on a plate. No, it might not be the PERFECT match for the course, but I think it could be close enough for some really good enjoyment of the pairings.

Now my question is, how should I go about requesting assistance from the Sommelier in helping me choose the most strategic three bottles?

Or, just as good: are there any real wine afficianados who could just "off the top of their heads" suggest three versatile wines that would work together as a trio to match almost any dish? Keep in mind that I would like to keep the cost for all three bottles together to be less than $300. Is that even POSSIBLE at Per Se?

Maybe two half-bottles and two more regular bottles would work better. Ugh it all makes my head spin and I haven't even started drinking yet!

Edited March 16, 2005 by James Kessler (log)

[iheartoffal]

As for me, I want to be able to taste every nuance in Keller/Benno/Rouxel's cuisine. I find that after several glasses of wine--or any form of alcohol--my palette only really notices the sweetness or saltiness of a particular dish. Maybe it's just me.

The one question I think I'll ask the sommelier is what course(s) he believes should absolutely have a wine accompaniment. I'll probably go with his recommendation.

Either that or I'll just sneak in a flask of Thunderbird.

[ducphat30]

Recently, there was an article (NYT, December 22, 2004, Dining IN, Dining OUT) on the pairing of beverages and food, the focus being on non-alcoholic options. I believe that someone might be able to link the actual article, but I do remember the opening is a situation at TFL regarding the pairing of the taglietelle and black truffles with an almond infused frothed milk.

Why do I bring this up? Maybe you should approach the sommelier about doing a beverage tasting so that you have something matched for every course and not be required to get schnockered on vino. You could point out that you would like the opportunity to try some of the wines (you'll know which ones to try because the sommeliers get really excited when they are describing a truly incredible wine). In the few instances that I have had the opportunity to interact with the people at Per Se they have been very accomodating and want to create an enjoyable evening for you. Put yourself in their hands, and let them do what they do best.

[robert40]

Yikes. I have to drive back past Albany after dinner.

This young follow is trying to kill an old man.

[Bux]

Or, just as good: are there any real wine afficianados who could just "off the top of their heads" suggest three versatile wines that would work together as a trio to match almost any dish?  Keep in mind that I would like to keep the cost for all three bottles together to be less than $300.  Is that even POSSIBLE at Per Se?

Maybe two half-bottles and two more regular bottles would work better.  Ugh it all makes my head spin and I haven't even started drinking yet!

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Two or three bottles of wine split between four people seems reasonable. First of all, unless you're really a connoisseur who demands rare wines, I see no reason why you couldn't find excellent choices below $100 a bottle. I saw plenty that wouldn't offend my taste buds. The sommelier should be able to recommend wines in your budget that compliment the menu.

We had glasses of Champagne with the amuse and the first course. I selected an inexpensive Loire wine that was offered in half bottles next. It was something that came well recommended at a bistro in Brittany and which I hadn't run across here in NY before. It was less impressive in connection with Per Se's food and ambience, but we enjoyed it nonetheless and it left me feeling I could splurge a bit on a bottle of red. I mentioned a price to our captain and asked if the sommelier could recommed a Burgundy at that price. He brought over a bottle that was one of the wines I had noticed. That was both reassuring and disappointing. Reassuring in that he agreed with my choice without knowing what it was, and disappointing in that he didn't connect me with a wine I might not have otherwise chosen.

[James Kessler]

Yikes. I have to drive back past Albany after dinner.

This young follow is trying to kill an old man.

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Omigod, you're seriously going to drive all the way back to Albany after dinner? I'm driving home too, but my drive is 30-45 minutes. Yours is like 3-4 hours! You're not getting home 'till the break of dawn...are you sure you don't want to get a little rest at a hotel first?

Well anyway... since at least two of us are driving, maybe we should keep the wine selection down to like three half-bottles or several glasses.

I like the suggestion that iheartoffal made, regarding asking the sommelier "what course(s) he believes should absolutely have a wine accompaniment." That is also a sensible suggestion.

I don't want everyone to think that my only thoughts are about how much wine to drink. Obviously alcohol is not at all at the forefront of the experience. It's just that since this is about the only part of the experience I have any amount of control over, I want to get it right. It pretty much goes without saying that the food will be unbelievable, and I won't have to make any decisions regarding the food other than how many courses I would like. So, I'm not really worried about the food at all. I just want to maximize the experience and enjoyment of myself and all those sharing the experience with me. So...

Cheers!

[Tough Cookie]

I will be visiting NYC in July and was planning to have lunch at Per Se. Their website states that all menus are $175. I presume this would include the lunch menu? Could someone please confirm this?

Many thanks.

[R Washburn]

I will be visiting NYC in July and was planning to have lunch at Per Se.  Their website states that all menus are $175.  I presume this would include the lunch menu?  Could someone please confirm this?

Many thanks.

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Yes. Lunch and dinner are the same menu.

[robert40]

Yikes. I have to drive back past Albany after dinner.

This young follow is trying to kill an old man.

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Omigod, you're seriously going to drive all the way back to Albany after dinner? I'm driving home too, but my drive is 30-45 minutes. Yours is like 3-4 hours! You're not getting home 'till the break of dawn...are you sure you don't want to get a little rest at a hotel first?

Well anyway... since at least two of us are driving, maybe we should keep the wine selection down to like three half-bottles or several glasses.

I like the suggestion that iheartoffal made, regarding asking the sommelier "what course(s) he believes should absolutely have a wine accompaniment." That is also a sensible suggestion.

I don't want everyone to think that my only thoughts are about how much wine to drink. Obviously alcohol is not at all at the forefront of the experience. It's just that since this is about the only part of the experience I have any amount of control over, I want to get it right. It pretty much goes without saying that the food will be unbelievable, and I won't have to make any decisions regarding the food other than how many courses I would like. So, I'm not really worried about the food at all. I just want to maximize the experience and enjoyment of myself and all those sharing the experience with me. So...

Cheers!

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Notice avatar. I am only allotted two and a half hours per month Daddy time.

So we made a agreement and combined the next three months. Which gives me enough of time for dinner and travel. But falls short of hotel.

[iheartoffal]

By request of one of the members of my party, I'm just seeing if there is anybody who would be able to fill a possible vacancy. This person is not feeling well, but will come in the event that I can't find anyone else. I told him I'd at least look for a substitute, though. If there is anyone who like to eat at Per Se this coming Monday, March 21st at 9:45pm, please pm me. No guarantees, obviously, but there's a chance.

Evan

[James Kessler]

Well, we did it folks. We dined at the holy mecca of restaurants in NYC. Two EGulletters and myself shared the table. While me and one of the other two guys know each other, the third member of our party was a stranger to us, prior to last night. It was awesome to meet someone who truly appreciates, enjoys and respects all that goes into an experience like this. The entire staff of Per Se was unbelievable. One waiter in particular, who asked not to be named, was simply brilliant at what he does. I'll be following up with more details in later posts, but I just wanted to let everyone know now how perfect everything was. I'll be posting all the many pictures I took, so everyone feel free to enjoy the images. I also hope you all enjoy reading my account of the evening as it comes.

[robert40]

Well, we did it folks.  We dined at the holy mecca of restaurants in NYC.  Two EGulletters and myself shared the table.  While me and one of the other two guys know each other, the third member of our party was a stranger to us, prior to last night.  It was awesome to meet someone who truly appreciates, enjoys and respects all that goes into an experience like this.  The entire staff of Per Se was unbelievable.  One waiter in particular, who asked not to be named, was simply brilliant at what he does.  I'll be following up with more details in later posts, but I just wanted to let everyone know now how perfect everything was.  I'll be posting all the many pictures I took, so everyone feel free to enjoy the images.  I also hope you all enjoy reading my account of the evening as it comes.

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Can't wait to hear the details James. Wish I could have been there.

[James Kessler]

Well I'm going to give you all a great in-depth "telling" of our experience at Per Se, but not now. Now I'm tired. I got home afterwards last night at 4:30 AM. I'm gonna go get some sleep now. In the meantime, please feel free to feast your eyes on my photographs. Just click below:

Our per se photographs 3/21/05

[BryanZ]

Thanks for those pics. I can't wait till I'm back home this summer and will be able to partake in the experience that is Per Se

[Todd36]

Had dinner tonight at Per Se, party of four, all friends. It was good, ADNY was better. Desserts and cheese were both weak at Per Se, vegetables were better at ADNY. Three out of four of us would not eat the cheese course. The only big impact dish at ADNY was the salmon wrap starter. Cheese puff starter is better at Eleven Madison Park. The lamb course at Per Se is very good, better than the veal at ADNY, but the side vegetables at ADNY are better. Per Se's cavier had little flavor for some odd reason, it didn't pop on my tongue. I would say Per Se is a strong three star and doesn't deserve its reputation. I am sure people will start disagreeing now.

[iheartoffal]

Hey, if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. Nothing wrong with that.

I happened to like every aspect of my meal there, though I haven't eaten at ADNY or most of the other NYC heavy hitters.

As far as the caviar, I think that Sevruga caviar is a little softer than Beluga or Osetra, hence, the no "popping" thing.

Had dinner tonight at Per Se, party of four, all friends.  It was good, ADNY was better.  Desserts and cheese were both weak at Per Se, vegetables were better at ADNY.  Three out of four of us would not eat the cheese course.  The only big impact dish at ADNY was the salmon wrap starter.  Cheese puff starter is better at Eleven Madison Park.  The lamb course at Per Se is very good, better than the veal at ADNY, but the side vegetables at ADNY are better.  Per Se's cavier had little flavor for some odd reason, it didn't pop on my tongue.  I would say Per Se is a strong three star and doesn't deserve its reputation.  I am sure people will start disagreeing now.

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[bilrus]

Had dinner tonight at Per Se, party of four, all friends.  It was good, ADNY was better.  Desserts and cheese were both weak at Per Se, vegetables were better at ADNY.  Three out of four of us would not eat the cheese course.  The only big impact dish at ADNY was the salmon wrap starter.  Cheese puff starter is better at Eleven Madison Park.  The lamb course at Per Se is very good, better than the veal at ADNY, but the side vegetables at ADNY are better.  Per Se's cavier had little flavor for some odd reason, it didn't pop on my tongue.  I would say Per Se is a strong three star and doesn't deserve its reputation.  I am sure people will start disagreeing now.

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Many have agreed that the dessert courses and especialy the cheese course are the weak points at both Per Se and French Laundry and I would agree in both cases.

But to say that a place doesn't deserve a reputation based on one meal for one party is a bit of stretch.

I didn't love French Laundry when I went, but I assumed it was an off night, either for my mood, the restaurant or both.

[Bux]

. . . .

But to say that a place doesn't deserve a reputation based on one meal for one party is a bit of stretch.

. . . .

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There is this expectation by many of expecting perfection in an area which is still governed by subjective taste. My biggest disappointments have generally been at three star (Michelin) restaurants. On the whole, I've left wondering if it wasn't my fault for not understanding the food or being prepared to get the most out of the particular restaurant. Well, perhaps that was not true in the absolute beginning, but as time went on I began to appreciate food on a more abstract level. I had several disappointing dishes at Per Se, but left the restaurant very enthusiastic about my overall meal and feel Per Se is an obvious candidate for Michelin's highest rating. The strong points for us were the simplest appearing dishes such as the caviar with califlower puree. The least effective dishes were the dishes with meat or fish and accompanying garnishes or what appear to be scaled down versions of main courses. We both agreed that in spite of a certain finesse, we preferred the intensity of the way Daniel prepares those kinds of dishes for a tasting menu. Then again, Daniel has had a great influence on our tastes so I can't discount the potential subjectivity involved.

[Todd36]

. . . .

But to say that a place doesn't deserve a reputation based on one meal for one party is a bit of stretch.

. . . .

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There is this expectation by many of expecting perfection in an area which is still governed by subjective taste. My biggest disappointments have generally been at three star (Michelin) restaurants. On the whole, I've left wondering if it wasn't my fault for not understanding the food or being prepared to get the most out of the particular restaurant. Well, perhaps that was not true in the absolute beginning, but as time went on I began to appreciate food on a more abstract level. I had several disappointing dishes at Per Se, but left the restaurant very enthusiastic about my overall meal and feel Per Se is an obvious candidate for Michelin's highest rating. The strong points for us were the simplest appearing dishes such as the caviar with califlower puree. The least effective dishes were the dishes with meat or fish and accompanying garnishes or what appear to be scaled down versions of main courses. We both agreed that in spite of a certain finesse, we preferred the intensity of the way Daniel prepares those kinds of dishes for a tasting menu. Then again, Daniel has had a great influence on our tastes so I can't discount the potential subjectivity involved.

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The greens in the salad I had at Cafe Gray last weekend were of much higher quality than what Per Se served. That alone gave me thoughts. A $9 ala carte salad beats a $175 prix fix?

Anyway, more details.

The cheese puff. Not as good as Eleven Madison Park!!!

A house smoked salmon canape, like a small cone hand roll. Very good, some of the best salmon I have ever had.

Oysters with cavier in a rich sauce, might have been bernese now that I think about it. Tasted good, but the cavier didn't seem to taste like much, and the oysters were masked by that good, but rich sauce.

Foie Gras Pate with Brioche and black truffle. The pate was good, but not remarkable. The brioche was too dry. Nice truffles. This added $30 the price. Friend had a salad instead, which was good but not what I expect in this price range.

The bread was OK, but not special. Two kinds of butter, neither of which was special.

A fish course. Forgot what kind, but it was a white fish, fairly firm, might have been snapper. It was good, but not remarkable.

Lobster cooked in butter. This was very good.

Lamb round. This was quite good. Vegetables were very good, but not to the level of ADNY.

The cheese was nothing special, no choice, just give you one kind. The bread with the cheese was fantastic though. These were nut breads.

Various sobets and mouses, none of them special. The mousse last week at La Veau'dor was better!!! In a $27 prix fix!

End analysis. It was good, with nothing below two stars. But not much had real impact, seemed remarkable, or can still be tasted in my mouth, just the salmon and the cheese course bread. To me, the food at Danube seems to be similar, except that Per Se uses some more expensive ingredents (the truffles, cavier etc) at around twice the price.

Part of the problem may be that I'm eating out too much. In the last six months or so, I've eaten at Danube, Nougatine, Sugiyama, ADNY, Cafe Gray, several high end sushi places, some good places in Charleston (Hominy Grill was good!!!)......

[iheartoffal]

At least they had truffles when you were there. They were conspicuously absent from the menu when I was there not four nights ago.

[raxelita]

At least they had truffles when you were there.  They were conspicuously absent from the menu when I was there not four nights ago. 

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tis not the season, for black nor white.

[iheartoffal]

I know. From what the FL cookbook said, though, they buy large quantities in season, poach them in mushroom stock, and then freeze them for later use. I was just a bit suprised. I didn't mean to make it sound like huge deal--my food was just fine without them.

[rich]

Just a few questions - Based on several of the latest reviews, is Per Se losing its luster after a year in business? Has Keller spread himself too thin? Is it possible he can't get away with what some other chefs with multiple establishments do, because he's too much of a perfectionist? And therefore must be present to have his food come off to the level he wishes.

Or, are we all becoming a bit jaded with the high prices charged by some of these top tier restaurants?

Certainly food for thought.

Edited March 25, 2005 by rich (log)

[Dryden]

I think it comes down to the fact that there's no accounting for taste, in certain cases. Having been to Per Se twice in the past year, some of Todd's comments clearly represent a matter of personal preference - both my wife and I have found the butters to be particularly exceptional, and the best we've had not in France. "Oysters with caviar in a rich sauce" I assume is Keller's signature oysters and pearls, in a sabayon tapioca. I find this dish to be mind-blowingly amazing every time I eat at (both at Per Se and at FL). But different folks expect different things out of their food, and when a restaurant reaches the heights Keller's do, there's just no pleasing some people.

[nypork]

I just went a couple of weeks ago and its good to hear other people were disappointed with the cheese course, I was expecting something exotic and unique, but the cheese to me tasted like a cabot brand cheese-it was a huge bump in the road. But overall after I giggled with delight through all the previous courses I will definitely look forward to returning.