Carbon Steel Knives

[it aint easy being cheesy]

I use carbon steel knifes and have no difficulty. Any rust or corrosion can be easily scrubbed off and to maintain a blade takes a couple strokes on a whetstone. I don't think there is a major difference in knives if you maintain the blade. It ends up being just what your comfterable with.

[JC]

wouldn't a diamond or ceramic "steel" sharpen rather than hone?

Rather than in a rod form ("steel"), you can find diamond or ceramic stones. Yes, they would likely sharpen rather than hone.

[pjs]

I've heard of edges being ruined by the diamond-impregnated stones. I don't remember the specifics though. Personally I use 1800 and 6000 waterstones. I learned to sharpen shit due to an unhealthy fixation on building musical instruments from scratch. My bench plane can get a continuous 36" long, .005" shaving from a piece of Rosewood. When in use I have to sharpen it two or three times a day.

Wait a minute, I just thought of something. Where's my plane? Where's my Parmigiano Reggiano?

[Fat Guy]

Where's my plane? Where's my Parmigiano Reggiano?

The folks at Microplane have been thinking along the same lines, thanks to a few clever cooks who repurposed their woodworking products for kitchen use in the early 1990s:

http://www.microplane.com/html/index.html

[Varmint]

The Microplane kitchen tools are the absolute best with hard cheese and for zesting. They're also the best for knuckle skin removal.

Has anyone tried their rotary grater?

Click here!

[Fat Guy]

Oh, I'm totally buying that. I wonder who carries it in NYC. I'm sick of my flimsy Zyliss.

[Varmint]

Let me know where you find one, or buy 2 and send me 1. I'm with you on that point of desperation.

[pjs]

Just for the record, the Microplane is a rasp not a plane.

Woodworkers use only high carbon blades, no stainless. At least in the hand tools.

High end Japanese chisels are up to Rockwells of around 67. Whether that's good or not I don't know. At some point brittleness overcomes hardness. I've learned that from aircraft grade fasteners (i.e. nuts & bolts). The Japanese stuff does get glowing reviews though.

pj

[JC]

pjs...

Woodworkers use only high carbon blades, no stainless. At least in the hand tools.

Can you share about the preference for high carbon blades? I'm interested to know more about the woodworking world and their uses for steels.

The chisels which go up to 67-68 Rc are normally of High Speed Steel (HSS). The white/blue steel versions are normally between 62-64 Rc. I hear white steel cuts better though, but edge-holding goes to blue steel.

[jaybee]

There are many others. George Tichbourne is quite popular as wel

JC, have you owned a Tichbourne knife? I'm imressed with the sales pitch, the prices and like the chef's knife and the vegetable parer. I'm quite happy with my Dehilleron carbon steel and inox knives for the kitchen, but I collect custom folders and go to the knife show here in NY once a year in November, so I know the quality and beauty of custom made knives. (Last year I bought a beauty in damascus steel which i just love to look at). So what's your take on Tichbourne?

[Huevos del Toro]

Are there any good online technical sources?

A Cooks Wares has a mini-course on knives and knife metals.

www.cookswares.com/discussions/equipment.asp

[oraklet]

jaybee,

those dehilleron knives, how do they look - i mean, are they in the classic french style, or lighter/heavier?

[Llantha]

I'm just a dumb girl, but I was always a tomboy and my dad sort of insisted that I (1) have a Barlow knife (like Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn- I forget which) and (2) I learn to use it safely and (3) that I learn to sharpen it.

My favorite knife is a carbon steel parer (5") that is built like a mini- chef's knife. It holds an edge well if I use a steel on it regulalry. I store my knives on a magnetic rack (ya, ya ~ get over it) over my sink and cutting board. The knife, which came from my cousin, is prolly 20 or 30 years old. It is darkened from its contact with acids, but it is not rusted or pitted.

After I use it I wash it off, dry it on my hand towel and put it back (gently, spine first) on the magnet. The only thing I oil every 6 months or so is the wooden handle (Mazola is our friend.) It is just not a pain to tend. It does not need "sharpened", just honed. If I take about 30 swipes of the steel at it is is sharp enough to slice through the skankiest tomato with no mess. ( Do you get the impression that I am not good about honing it each time I use it? )

I detest the stainless steel stuff because I can't sharpen it. I'm too ADD for the 2 hours it takes (me) to get a good edge on stainless. I vote for carbon all the way.

However, if you want to sharpen a knife at home, I heartily urge you to use Lansky Sharpener. (Note- this is en example of the product- I don't know anything about this site- shop around.) It maintains a solid, yet, adjustable angle between the knife and the stone and its progressive stones let you put any edge on the knife that you choose. It is an incredibly simple machine and it does fantastic work. I got my kit in 1980 or so and they have just gotten better since then. With this bad boy, I took a crappy old knife and put an edge on it I could shave my arm with. I don't care how impared your muscle skills are- if you can use a knife, you can use this sharpener. /end testimonial

But why bother when there is carbon steel in the world? Oh, and don't buy the new stuff- hit an estate sale in an ethnic neighborhood- where people still cooked in the 50's. They have good carbon steel knives. $1.00 each.

[bobsdf]

I've got a "Carter" funayuki-bocho--basically a very thin bladed knife used for general kitchen purposes--in laminated hitatchi white steel and I love it. It is high carbon white steel sandwiched between two pieces of stainless steel. This results in the high carbon steel only being exposed along the cutting edge making it easier to maintain. I think it tests around HRC 63-4. Using japanese waterstones I can get this knife much sharper than any of my Henkles or Globals. It will shave the hair off your arm with virtully no pressure, cutting onions is actually exciting (I know, I'm weird!) I once, by accident, filleted strip of skin about 1 cm long and about 0.01 mm thick off of my finger, no blood, luckily, just a little less thickness of skin, how's that for dermabrasion! I'm not sure if I'd use this type of knife in a professional kitchen, as the maintenence may become an issue, but for home use the maintenence isn't a problem, it just takes a minor amount of attention. One issue is that as the steel gets harder is it becomes more brittle, so care should be taken that one isn't hacking at bones at a oblique angle or the blade may become chipped.

Anyway, for those of you interested in various steel types, this is from Murray Carter's catalogue:

"Q. Which is the best steel, White #1, Blue-Super or ZDP247

A. There is no such thing as a "best" steel for every application. However, there is a best known steel for a given application. The steels I use are all top Quality and each are specialized in one way.

White steel, my personal favorite, is an amazingly pure steel and therefore the carbides in the steel allow for the keenest edge possible. So, when a surgically clean cut is required, such as in some type food preparation (Sushi etc.), or in woodcrving, White steel reigns as king.

Blue-Super steel, is basically white steel with Cr, W, Mo and V added. This results in oddly shaped carbides in the steel, so keenness is sacrificed somewhat. However, the new carbides enable this steel to retain its edge longer than any other grade of cutlery steel. Therefore Blue-Super is the king of edge retention.

ZDP247 is the superior choice when stain resistant cutlery steel is necessary, as in certain medicla application, or when using close to salt-water etc. It doesn't cut as keenly as White steel and doesn't hold an edge as long as Blue-Super steel, but it is the king as far as stainless cutlery steel is concerned."

[JC]

Good thing about Carter is that if you're concerned about the thin edge chipping (on bone), you can always ask him to make it thicker than usual. One of the benefits of dealing with a knife maker.

[jimgeralds]

High-carbon steel knives that are just slightly stainless are by far my favorite. I regularly use two of such knives, a Chinese cleaver and a Japanese santoku knife. The cleaver is a Hong Kong made knife that I picked up in Thailand. The laminated santoku I bought from a Japanese knife importer in London. They do tend to discolor but so what, I think it adds character to your knife. If you really don't like the coloring just take a high grade wet/dry abrasive paper (600 grit) and remove it.

I also have a bit of a sharpening fetish so I enjoy having knives that I can get really, really sharp very quickly. A few swipes on the 220 grit waterstone and then bit more on the 1000 and a final polish on the 6000 and my knifes will cut through anything! The henckles knives are great but to get a keen edge on them takes a lot of work.

Jim

[scratchline]

Recently bought an old unused carbon steel chef knife. I have never used one of these knives and wondered what advice those who have could share with me. I know I'm supposed to avoid certain foods but is this to protect the knife or the food? Is there someone out there who uses their carbon steel knife with acidic foods? Thanks for your help.

Mike

[Chad]

Use it and enjoy it. Carbon steel knives can take a screaming sharp edge and are easier to maintain than stainless steel knives. You've been told a half-truth about avoiding certain foods. Acidic foods such as tomatoes, oranges, meats (oddly enough), etc. will put a patina on your knife. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The patina (a mostly benign form of rust) can actually prevent the more harmful types of rust from taking hold.

Things to keep in mind:

• Rinse your knife regularly during use, especially when cutting large amounts of acidic foods.
  
• Wash your knife after use -- do not leave it covered in food goo or sitting in the sink. It won't wait 'til tomorrow like your stainless knives will.
  
• Dry your knife thoroughly after washing. Carbon steel can rust astoundingly quickly.
  
• Learn to use a steel. Carbon knives will take an amazing edge, but the wet, acidic environment of the kitchen can dull them quickly. The steel is your best friend. Learn to use a steel properly and you can go months between sharpenings.
  
• Relax. If your knife takes a patina, don't go nuts trying to get it off. A patina is in no way unsanitary, and as mentioned above, can protect the blade from more aggressive forms of rust.
  

You don't have to baby your knife. Just take some basic care and it will last a lifetime.

You might want to see the eGullet Culinary Institute class on Knife Maintenance & Sharpening for more information.

Chad

[jackal10]

They are a delight to use and maintain. The patina is mant to be there, but not the bright orange rust. Cutting acid foods is no problem.

Just don't put them in a dishwaher - the detergents are far too aggresive.

Keep a steel on hand - you will soon learn to feel when the blade needs touching up, and a couple of strokes each side is all it take

Enjoy!

[chefboy2160]

I have a couple of these old relics on hand and I love to use them as they realy take on a good edge and hold it with yes more frequent usage uf the steel but thats not a problem.I have one question though, does anybody know of a company that makes and sells quality hi carbon knives anymore as I would be very interested in adding some more to my collection .All the knives I see for sale localy are either high carbon stainless or stainless. Thanks , Doug.........

[Chad]

Howdy, Chefboy. You might want to take a look at this thread on Wildfire Cutlery. The guy's got a good reputation for his carbon steel kitchen knives. The only commercial carbon steel line I can think of at the moment is the Sabatier Au Carbone line.

Chad

[chefboy2160]

Thanks Chad,Sabatier has disscontinued there carbon only knives for high carbon stainless totaly.Wildfire is swamped to boot.I guess I will keep my eyes open in the second hand stores perhaps or yard sales . Who knows? Right now as a professional chef I am using Forschners(these are the low end of professional chef knives supposedly) and I have been for many years. Cheap in price but good working steel and a good feel in the hand.

FYI, when your job requires the use of a knife like mine does all I can say is that looks are the least of my worries. When you have produce to prep and meat to cut

all that matters to me is the best tool for the job and a sharp knife is essential to good work and safety. Maybe I shall start looking in the direction of some of these japanese knives as I am hearing a lot about them lately.

Thanks again,Doug.......................

[scratchline]

Hey, ChefBoy, here's a link for new Four Star Elephant Sabatier Carbon Steel Knives:

http://www.shopping.cutlery.com/*ws4d-db-q...hing+Items.y=10

If the link doesn't work just google Professional Cutlery Direct. They're the dealer.

There are also carbon knives available from Sabatier 62 at this site:

http://lacuisineus.com/catalog/index.php?c...ac25c39d48efd12

If you're looking for vintage knives, they show up on ebay occasionally. Happy shopping and let us know what you end up with and how it performs.

Mike

[oraklet]

The patina (a mostly benign form of rust) can actually prevent the more harmful types of rust from taking hold.

is this true, really? i mean, you're the expert, i know that, but still...

apart from that, the old french (and i think, german) carbon steel knives were somewhat lighter, and the edge geometry better. they are hard to find at a decent price on ebay. lots of crazy collectors lurking there.

i changed the geometry on my new sabatier lion carbon steel knife, and it works much more smoothly now. just one of many things learned from the extremely cool "Knife Maintenance & Sharpening" tutorial.

edit: one more thing: carbon steel will transfer tastes/flavours more easily than ss. - i guess it's because the steel is more porous?

Edited May 3, 2004 by oraklet (log)

[scratchline]

Hey, Chad, just finished reading your Knife Maintenance and Sharpening, and I'll follow your suggestion and print it out for easy reference. Really terrific. Considering how I've been honing my knives on a grooved steel I wish I had read it years ago. Think I'll probably invest in a guide system too since I've been freehanding on Arkansas stones and could probably use a reality check on my angles. At least I've been doing a good job with the Crock Sticks. Big thanks.

Mike