Viognier

[SethG]

I had a cheap California Viognier recently, and I thought it was very tasty. Caveat: I don't know anything. But I enjoyed it, oak and all.

I've never tried a real Viognier from France. I'd like to, but I don't know where to start. Anyone want to steer me toward something? Something reasonable, available in NYC, and maybe something that's a splurge? Are there any reasonably priced Viogniers that are worth the trouble?

Thanks, and sorry if this has been done to death before. I couldn't find more than the odd mention here and there of this variety.

[KatieLoeb]

The "classic" example of Viognier is Condrieu. But there are many more appellations that produce Viognier in France as well as domestically here in the USA. Look for Rhone wines, Rhone blends that are primarily Viognier, or Viognier from California. One that I'm fond of is the Freemark Abbey - it's one of my old stand by glass pours. There's also R.H. Phillips EXP Viognier that is fairly widely available. Check this site HERE for more info and ideas. And enjoy! Viognier is one of my very favorite whites. Delicately floral with the backbone and richness of Chardonnay and the balancing acidity of a Riesling (if it's a good one, anyhow). It's particulalry tasty with lobster or scallops.

Cheers!

[Mark Sommelier]

Admittedly, these are both splurge wines, but you should go to a better wine shop and ask for:

Condrieu "Coteaux du Vernon" and "Les Terrasses de L'Empire", Domaine Georges Vernay

Condrieu "La Doriane", Etienne Guigal. This is the prestige bottling from Guigal. The regular Condrieu I usually find to be somewhat flabbier and sweeter. Other fine examples:

Domaine Pichon

Domaine Boissonet

I think Condrieus are best drunk young. Look for recent vintages.

[Schneier]

Why is Condrieu so expensive? It always seems to cost more than comparable whites.

Bruce

[SethG]

And while we're asking questions, how much are they likely to set me back?

And what do you folks who know think of California Viogniers? Are they comparable to the French ones?

Edited January 4, 2004 by SethG (log)

[John W.]

The Condrieus that Mark listed are pretty expensive, I wouldn't think they'd be less than $50 retail if you can find any of them.

Some of the California ones that I like are Equus (good quality/price ratio), Joseph Phelps, Zaca Mesa (again with the quality price ratio), and Darioush (barrel-fermented, lumbered up pretty good, extracted but damn tasty). The closest to the French style from my memory would be from Bell Winery (in Yountville). Very fragrant, delicate, lots of honeysuckle and white pepper, pretty good acidity and minerality. Can't remember where the fruit was from, but the wine was quite memorable.

[Carema]

Why is Condrieu so expensive?  It always seems to cost more than comparable whites.

Bruce

The vine itself is low yielding and very susceptible to disease. Plus in terms of hectacres it is among one of the tiniest AOCs in France, only just dwarfing the tiny Chateau Grillet. I feel that it is very hard to pair with food simply because of its complex aromatics, mentioned by other posters here, jasmine, honeysuckle, starchy banana etc. Viognier, like some Gewurtztraminers, is just inordinately strange and fickle. The American ones are all over the boards, some can smell like gasoline and rotten flowers. I have liked the Darioush, Miner Family & Spencer Roloson's in the past.

As for selling Condrieu I usually keep a couple of bottles stocked just for the odd sort that comes in and wants one. Truth be told they are unreasonably expensive and for the most part like fools gold; I have never been transported fully into wine lala land by one but they always retain some sort of mystique and cache.

[Mark Sommelier]

Classic viognier should smell like flowers. Well made ones have adequate acidity to replace chardonnay for delicate seafood dishes, especially if the sauce is also fragrant. The better ones wholesale between $20 and $30. The Vernay and Guigal are more expensive. I personally don't really care for California examples, as I find them too heavy, overoaked and sweet.

[winebill]

Another affordable Viognier is Fairview ,from the Paarl region of South Africa

Classic aroma of Peaches and apricots, full bodied with a good taste of oak, but not over the top. Strong acidity, with a touch of smokiness. A relatively new wine for Fairview. About $ 17.00 a bottle

[KatieLoeb]

YES, YES, YES! The Darioush is amazing. Possibly one of the best domestic viogniers I've had the pleasure of drinking. I know it can't just be me since at least two other wine geeks mentioned it . Gawd, I absolutely loved this when I tried it at a tasting in September. Yummy! If you can track down a bottle of this (try This Site for a local retailer) you should add it to your wish list of viogniers.

[winebill]

............And the Darioush Cabernet is amazzzzzing !!!!!

[Busboy]

I second Mark's Terasses d'Empire, he poured it for us at his restaurant and it was wonderful.

Mark himself may shoot me down for this one, but I've always like Horton Vineyards Viogner, from that ancient wine-producing region of Virginia. Not is the same class as the les terrasses, but nne of the few Virginia wines I've found worth the price -- $18 or so. I don't know how widely available it is. I did once see it on the wine list at Rubicon in San Francisco.

[John W.]

I second Mark's Terasses d'Empire, he poured it for us at his restaurant and it was wonderful. 

Mark himself may shoot me down for this one, but I've always like Horton Vineyards Viogner, from that ancient wine-producing region of Virginia.  Not is the same class as the les terrasses, but nne of the few Virginia wines I've found worth the price -- $18 or so.  I don't know how widely available it is. I did once see it on the wine list at Rubicon in San Francisco.

Horton is great, if you can find more current vintages. The bottles I've seen on the shelves recently are still the 1999 vintage, a bottle last week tasted of white wine and not much else. My fave VA viognier is Chrysalis, a bit expensive for a Virginia wine (I think about $24 wholesale) but worth it in my opinion.

[SethG]

Thank you all for your help. You've given me just what I wanted: a number of choices at a variety of price points.

[nanuq]

From California, my vote is for Alban, Pride, and Arrowood.

Enjoy the tasting...

[KatieLoeb]

............And the Darioush Cabernet is amazzzzzing !!!!!

Also true. The story of the winery is pretty interesting as well, and for a relative newcomer, their level of success is stunning. Everything I tried of theirs was fantastic!

[Scott]

And while we're asking questions, how much are they likely to set me back?

And what do you folks who know think of California Viogniers? Are they comparable to the French ones?

better imo.

[Stigand]

When I lived in California, I liked Alban's Viognier as a Condrieu substitute.

Consider also Australian Viognier. I had a fantastic one at Nahm in London a year or so ago - I'm afraid I can't remember much about it apart from the fact that it was from South Australia. It was a great match with Nahm's (haute Thai) food, but was interesting on its own too.

[LOS]

There's a very good VDP Viognier that's very nice called "La Gauphine"; around $15.

[badthings]

I've tried a few expensive Condrieus, and a few of those flabby California viogniers (which can, in truth, be pleasant enough), but the best I've ever had (insane flowery aromatics) was simply a Côtes-du-Rhône AOC from Chateau du Trignon labelled "viognier". Who knows where the grapes came from? I think it was about $16.

[Carema]

but the best I've ever had (insane flowery aromatics) was simply a Côtes-du-Rhône AOC from Chateau du Trignon labelled "viognier". Who knows where the grapes came from? I think it was about $16.

Well, if it were truly labeled Cotes Du Rhone AOC then the grapes had to be from the Cotes Du Rhone. However, AOC labeling usually precludes varietal labeling, but I think I might have seen a few exception as of late (although firm details are not springing to mind)

There is a rarely seen northern AOC called (Brezeme I think) that can attach itself to the Cotes Du Rhone appelation, perhaps that is where your viognier was from. It has been my experience that southern rhone Viogniers are just a mite less intense than their nothern counterparts.

[badthings]

Well, if it were truly labeled Cotes Du Rhone AOC then the grapes had to be from the Cotes Du Rhone. However, AOC labeling usually precludes varietal labeling, but I think I might have seen a few exception as of late (although firm details are not springing to mind)

There is a rarely seen northern AOC called (Brezeme I think) that can attach itself to the Cotes Du Rhone appelation, perhaps that is where your viognier was from. It has been my experience that southern rhone Viogniers are just a mite less intense than their nothern counterparts.

Yes, I only meant that it could have come from anywhere in the C-d-R appelation, which is considerably less specific than Condrieu.

I can't think of specific examples either, but I feel like I've even seen bourgognes labelled "pinot noir" -- obviously for the american market. definitely Languedoc "chardonnays", but I'm not sure if they were "appellated".

Trignon is based in Gigondas, and their other wines are all, to my knowledge, from around there: Séguret, Rasteau, etc. It is certainly cooler around the Dentelles than down in the valley.

I recently tried a (pricy) Brezeme and was disappointed with it -- but I was forced to drink it from plastic cups, so who knows what it really tasted like?

[Mark Sommelier]

I have seen varietals listed on CdR's, but mainly as syrah or cuvée syrah. Chateau Fonsalette comes to mind. I also recently bought some syrah made at Domaine Georges Vernay in Condrieu labeled syrah.

[SethG]

Today I bought a very reasonably priced 2002 French Roussanne/Viognier blend from a Rhone (Lirac) outfit called Lafond. They didn't have any straight Viognier (other than Condrieu) at the shop, so I thought I'd give it a try.

I drank it with some shrimp risotto and a salad. I thought it was very nice, although I wouldn't describe it as a true Viognier fruit explosion or anything. Again, I know nothing, so please ignore what I say. But lately I find myself buying crisp whites like Muscadet and Alsatian Reisling a lot, and for a similar $10-12 expenditure this was a much more full-bodied and sophisticated drink. I think I'll buy more.

Later I found a piece on MSNBC about the wine. So the secret's out.

Edited January 6, 2004 by SethG (log)

[Craig Camp]

this was a much more full-bodied and sophisticated drink.

I will agree with the full-bodied, but not more sophisticated.

Muscadet and all Alsatian whites have the capacity for great sophistication. At the lower end of the price spectrum Muscadet and Riesling are IMO far more interesting than viognier.

Unfortunately you have to spend a lot of money to get really complex, interesting viognier otherwise it is just another soft, tropical fruity Australian and Californian Chardonnay style-wine.