Italian Restaurant Glut

[menton1]

The month of December has brought us 4 new "red sauce" Italian restaurants in Bergen County-- "Felice" next to the Diner in Oradell (no name on the place), Bella Italia on Main St in New Milford about 7 blocks away from Felice, Intermezzo in Dumont, replacing the TriValley, and a yet-to be named place on Schraalenburgh Road opposite Delmonico's in Closter.

These places are all little more than more attractive Pizza Parlors, and in some cases the pizza parlor food is better and cheaper. For one of the most upscale counties in the US, Bergen County's restaurants show a tremendous lack of imagination. The restaurant situation here shows no creativity.. The towns of Montclair and Maplewood put Bergen to shame. Even the Ridgewood restaurant scene is a bore lately.

If I'm going to travel to Montclair or Maplewood, I might as well go to the city. How can we account for this tremendously dull restaurant environment in Bergen County?

[Jason Perlow]

I totally disagree with this. We don't have enough DECENT "red sauce" Italian restaurants. Even the regular pizza places we have pretty much suck.

I happen to like Felice and feel its a welcome addition to the area. He may not be outrageously creative but the quality of his product is good.

I haven't tried any of the others you mentioned yet.

[tommy]

the scene is tremendously dull because tremendously dull is the current market in bergen, and i'd guess all over the country generally speaking. people just don't want Babbo and Lupa. families are much more willing to spend 10 dollars on "veal parm" with a side of pasta then they would 25 bucks on beef cheeks.

one of the more creative italian restaurants in bergen, la carbonaria (sp?) in ho-ho-kus lasted only a few short years, if that, and closed over a year ago. the red sauce joint across the street is still, presumably, doing a booming business. they probably even have crayons so kids can draw on the placemats.

[Jason Perlow]

I think the other issue is that while Bergen County has traditionally had a large Italian-American population, we are starting to see a huge influx of new upper-middle-class Asian families (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc) and the new restaurants we are seeing seem to reflect their taste in food. In terms of Asian there's plenty of new and exciting Asian stuff.

I'd look to towns like Englewood for the more interesting stuff.

As to Italian, I can't tell you how much I welcome a place that makes fresh pasta and makes good pizza, and a GOOD red sauce. Maybe its not "exciting" but it's something I do want now and then. In Tenafly we have maybe 3 pizza parlor type places and all three of them suck. So a place like Felice which makes fresh pasta, good sauce and good pizza is a very welcome addition.

[menton1]

As to Italian, I can't tell you how much I welcome a place that makes fresh pasta and makes good pizza, and a GOOD red sauce. Maybe its not "exciting" but it's something I do want now and then. In Tenafly we have maybe 3 pizza parlor type places and all three of them suck. So a place like Felice which makes fresh pasta, good sauce and good pizza is a very welcome addition.

You already had Ciao Bella in Cresskill, which IMHO blows Felice away. (No cigarette smoke either!) Also Cassie's in Englewood. And countless others. As a matter of fact, if ambience is not an issue, Uncle Frank's Pizza in Dumont probably has the best pasta and Eggplant parm around.

My point was, we didn't need 4 MORE of these places-- there are already dozens. Why can't a place like Fascino open in Bergen?

Tommy-- the line about crayons made me LOL!!

[Jason Perlow]

I wasn't impressed with Ciao Bella at all. Cassie's pizza sucks too.

I'll check out Uncle Franks though.

[tommy]

Tommy-- the line about crayons made me LOL!!

it was also meant to make a point: bergen county is filled with families who might very well prefer a Sicilian Sun experience over a Babbo experience.

[menton1]

Well, seriously, it doesn't have to be a Babbo-- but what about places like Fascino, Corso 98 and Epernay in Montclair, Citrus Grille and Xaviar's in Rockland, Jocelyne's and Celebrated Food in Maplewood; can't Bergen support interesting/creative restaurants like these? What's so different demographically between Essex, Rockland, and Bergen?

[tommy]

i don't think there's much demographic difference btwn the ridgewood area, for example, and the montclair area. given that both have been known has "restaurant capitals", i think it's just a matter of luck: montclair got luckier with certain types of restaurants (whereas ridgewood, one might agrue, has montclair beat in upscale dining with the likes of La Tour, Zarole, and 28 Oak, not to mention bergen overall with Cafe Panache and HoHokus Inn).

[menton1]

Also, right in or near Tenafly are Christino's, a red-sauce place in the Clinton Inn; and Cafe Terrana, on the corner of Clinton Ave and Washington in Bergenfield. Actually, I once had a decent Eggplant Rollatini there. These Italian red-sauce places are ubiquitous!!

Which reminds me, why do all these "Italian" places with the name "cafe" use the French spelling, instead of the Italian spelling, "caffe"? (pet peeve)

[albie]

I for one lament the demise of Assaggia, late of Hackensack Avenue, Wood Ridge. The owner, one Ciro Santoro, appears to have fallen off the radar screen.

[rickster]

Well, seriously, it doesn't have to be a Babbo-- but what about places like Fascino, Corso 98 and Epernay in Montclair, Citrus Grille and Xaviar's in Rockland, Jocelyne's and Celebrated Food in Maplewood; can't Bergen support interesting/creative restaurants like these? What's so different demographically between Essex, Rockland, and Bergen?

I wouldn't claim to be an expert in the cultural demographics of the New Jersey suburbs (although I grew up in Maplewood), but I know that in the press, both Maplewood and Montclair have a reputation of being "starter" suburbs for younger (hipper?) people making the first move out of NYC who are used to the more diverse range of restaurants you get in the city. This reputation, real or perceived, may attract the type of restaurants you're talking about to those towns.

[tommy]

rickster brings up something that i was going to mention. when comparing montclair and ridgewood, specifically, i'd say that overall montclair is a "younger" town. this, i think, partly drives the restaurant scene.

[fascino]

not too mention rent is cheaper in Essex overall compared to Bergen....

Edited December 17, 2003 by fascino (log)

[tommy]

not too mention rent is cheaper in Essex overall compared to Bergen....

i was hoping someone like you would pipe in.

[menton1]

not too mention rent is cheaper in Essex overall compared to Bergen....

Possibly, but does a higher rent mean a lower-quality restaurant? With the 4 new places opening that I mentioned earlier, there are probably over 25 of these "red sauce" Italians in Bergen. I've also seen them fold up as quickly as they open many times. Why aren't innovative restaurateurs attracted to this county?

[Rosie]

I posted about another new Italian restaurant in Montclair here

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=33535

[tommy]

not too mention rent is cheaper in Essex overall compared to Bergen....

Possibly, but does a higher rent mean a lower-quality restaurant?

higher rent means higher expenses. putting that on top of an already slim profit margin from "innovative" restaurants, and you have a deterrent. this, of course, is suggesting that profit margins are lower for a place like Fascino than they are for a place churning out 200 pizzas a night. and i think that's about right.

Edited December 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[menton1]

I think profit margins are extremely difficult to calculate in the restaurant biz. A science in itself. I think the "likeliness to succeed" is the real factor, and I don't think the odds are better for a "red sauce" Italian rather than something innovative.

Over the years, I've seen these red-sauce places drop out like flies-- probably ANY type of restaurant venture is risky....

As far as rents, I've heard that downtown Montclair is very high for rents-- in Bergen, there are really no downtowns, except for Ridgewood and Englewood-- most of the restos are on the highways or on "suburban" roads-- so I don't know how those rents stack up to downtown Montclair anyway...

[tommy]

i'm not sure about rents either. i was just taking what fascino said as an informed opinion, since he's opened a restaurant in montclair.

red sauce places come and go too, as you say. but they're just fronts for coke dealers anyway , so they don't have as much on the line as a real chef who wants to make his mark in the culinary world. i'll use fascino again as an example.

Edited December 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[menton1]

i'm not sure about rents either.  i was just taking what fascino said as an informed opinion, since he's opened a restaurant in montclair.

It seemed he was using county-wide statistics-- but you have to factor in that Essex has large urban centers, where rents are much lower...

Edited December 17, 2003 by menton1 (log)

[tommy]

i'm not sure if commerical leases mirror residential sales, but montclair is indeed very similar to englewood, ridgewood, etc, as far as housing costs go.

all i know is that we agree that there aren't many/any progressive italian places in bergen. and i'd say there aren't many in northern jersey, or NYC for that matter either.

Edited December 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[menton1]

all i know is that we agree that there aren't many/any progressive italian places in bergen. and i'd say there aren't many in northern jersey, or NYC for that matter either.

Just for the record, I started this thread longing for ANY type of cuisine as long as it's a hands-on chef who thinks and cares about his menu and comes up with creative ideas for food, and not these ubiquitous red sauce houses.

The "good Italian restaurant" issue is an 8-page topic on the Italy forum.

[fascino]

We plan to open more restaurants in the future...there is no doubt we will look at some Bergen towns...Menton you are right about smack in the middle of downtown being expensive in Montclair...we looked there...instead we took a spot 4-5 blocks east where the real estae is nearly so desirable...I now pay for 1600 square feet what others pay for 800-900 sq ft just a few blocks up...I'm sure similiar deals could be made in Bergen. Tommy was definitely right when he said that we have slim profit margins and need to be careful. Not having a liquor license makes a huge difference. If there are some affluent Bergen towns with liquor licenses left I'd be interested.

[menton1]

Fascino, there are licenses available as long as you are willing to shell out. Depending on the demographics, I believe the licenses go for anywhere from $150-250K. That's a whole lot of martinis.....