The BK Veggie?

[Wilfrid]

So, Tommy, you've forgotten Annique already.  Listen, if you start taunting the vegetarians, they're going to laugh right back in your face:

Don't say I didn't warn you! :p

[jhlurie]

I don't believe it was my friend's fault for assuming that a veggie burger was in fact vegetarian, especially after he asked the employee.  We keep talking about how its the customer's responsibility to ask.  I clearly stated in my post that he did ask.  He then relied on what he was told.  How much further should he have gone, to the manager, regional manager, franchise owner?

ah... the "stupid employee" angle. :)

I can see a bit of your viewpoint on this.  Then again (and I know this is hardly an "enlightened" politically correct argument... just a realistic one) what else did your friend expect from someone who works at a Burger King for a living?  tommy's argument still works in general... should you really expect an authoritative and informed answer from a 16 year old or senior citizen making ten cents an hour over minimum wage?  Perhaps it seems a bit unfair to your friend, but I don't think it's way out of whack to expect a more informed answer from a restaurant manager, and perhaps then a slightly greater level of responsibility if the answer was wrong.

Then again... you use the word "fault" in reference to this whole incident.  Doesn't fault imply that there were damages?  That's most of this whole debate... are elaborate rules and regulations necessary when the damages are negligable?

Okay... lets take this a step futher.  A lot of people are allergic to peanuts.  Laws have been passed to regulate labelling of when peanuts are used in packaged goods.  But do those same laws extend to un-packaged food?  Maybe they SHOULD because in that case a mistake might KILL someone instead of morally outraging them.

[Wilfrid]

By the way, I wasn't advocating legal action against BK either.  I was just saying that, as a layman, I could see how someone could try to make out a case.

Can everyone see the funny picture I put up?

[tommy]

wilfrid, i don't see your picture.

jhlurie, peanuts are in thai and vietnamese food and i don't always see that mentioned on the menu.  if i ask the non-english speaking kid if the curry has peanuts he'll most likely nod his head no or yes, depending on the wind.  i shall taunt the kid and sue the thai place the next time this happens.  well, maybe i won't see, but i will be morally outraged, but certainly highly-spiced.

[Ron Johnson]

Tommy if you are saying that asking the store is not good enough because the counter guy makes 5 bucks an hour then that kind of blows your Jean Georges analogy.  At least  I don't think those waiters make 5 bucks an hour.  Again, you say it is the cusotmer's responsibility to ask, but yet you still blame them when they do ask because you don't think the person they asked was smart enough.  Should he have written to BY corporate headquarters before going for the veggie burger?

Jhlurie:  let go of damages.  I am not advocating a lawsuit.  Damages ONLY apply in lawsuits.  My friend does not want to sue BK, never did and never will.    I merely related what he told me about his experience and then you and Tommy said it was his fault for assuming it was vegetarian even though he asked beforehand.

Bottomline, he did not assume.  Even though it is called the "BK veggie" he still asked and was told it was free of animal products.  earlier you stated that if BK "actively" stated that the product was free of animal products, then it would be their screw-up.  Isn't that what they did?

[Steve Klc]

Wifrid--no.

Also, let's not forget that managers and assistant managers of fast food franchises make very good money and have very good benefits--unlike most chefs and line cooks I know.

Legal action diverts us.  My two issues:  was BK pulling a fast one with the vague wording of their press release? and was BK disingenuous to issue a press release announcing the "BK Veggie" and not also mention that it shouldn't actually be considered "vegetarian" since it would be cooked alongside meat?

[Ron Johnson]

Tommy, what if the menu said "Peanut-less" thai food?  Would you be upset when it had peanuts in it and the restaurant said "you should have asked because we don't think "peanut-less"  means totally without peanuts.  You shouldn't assume."

[Wilfrid]

Does this resolve it?  Consumers may be stupid, in some cases, to rely on what they are told by a vendor (especially if the vendor is represented by someone who appears ill-informed), but they are nonetheless entitled to rely on it.  Legally, and I think ethically too.  

(It was a funny picture, too.  :( )

[jhlurie]

let go of damages.  

to some extent that's hard to do... but for at least the first part of this response... sure.

earlier you stated that if BK "actively" stated that the product was free of animal products, then it would be their screw-up.  Isn't that what they did?

And the heart of the issue may be whether or not it is reasonable to expect a low-level employee to be a representative for an entire multi-billion dollar chain...

Did the kid screw up.  Sure he did.  Did B.K. screw up because the kid screwed up?  I'm not sure...

More importantly who is at fault?  This is where (lawsuit or not) those unmentionable damages come into play.  Maybe it's just me, but I wasn't raised as a moral absolutist.  To retain even a little bit of hope in this world I have to believe that major infractions are less morally defensible than minor ones.  That's why damages are more important in more than just a legal sense to me.  If the damages are low I have at least some belief that it is at a minumum uncouth and at maximum dangerous to encourage people to make a fuss over issues of this type, because our energies should be better directed towards problems with greater consequences.

Now in a purely intellectual discussion... sure I can see your point.  But if this came down to ANYTHING in the "real world", be it lawsuit or just going down to your neighborhood BK and hassling them, I would see it as a waste of energy--both actual and spiritual.

As for the completely seperate issue of whether or not B.K was TRYING to pull a fast one... this is related.  We can suspect whatever we want, but if the wrongness of the action is so open to debate then what standard can you use OTHER than damages to assess how much we care about the issue?

[tommy]

Tommy if you are saying that asking the store is not good enough because the counter guy makes 5 bucks an hour then that kind of blows your Jean Georges analogy.  

i don't think it discredits my jean georges analogy at all.  my point was, you have to ask a credible source.  and if i were in a position where i needed to know, because of an allergy or religious or other reason, you can bet your pippy that i wouldn't feel comfortable taking the word of the kid at the register.  i would, however, feel comfortable asking a captain at jean georges (who would, incidently, ask the kitchen to get the answer if he was unsure).

as for your "peanut-less" question.  i would say that there is little confusion in anyone's mind that peanut-less means without peanuts.  that would be deception in advertising, or some other legal term that i don't know about.  

not to harp on it, but "veggie" means "vegetable" to me, not vegetarian.

mrs tommy:  "tommy, how would you like your veggies done"?

tommy:  "just put them in a luke warm pot of water and taunt them,  i hear they're suing BK again."

:p

you see, veggies means vegetables.

[Ron Johnson]

Veggie means vegetables?  Ok, isn't that what vegetarians eat, or I am missing something?

So, if a vegetarian orders "veggies" and gets meat, he isn't getting what he ordered is he?

I really can't make it any plainer.

[jhlurie]

Hmmm.  Are green beens with bacon in the sauce still veggies?

[Ron Johnson]

Is this called splitting hairs?

[tommy]

Veggie means vegetables?  Ok, isn't that what vegetarians eat, or I am missing something?

So, if a vegetarian orders "veggies" and gets meat, he isn't getting what he ordered is he?

I really can't make it any plainer.

ron, hmmm...

that extension of logic is not so bad.  however, it's not half as funny as my "taunt vegetarians in a warm pot" bit.  

"veggies" means vegetables more than it means "vegetarians".  if i ordered veggies, and had a platter of whining rabbit food eaters brought to me on a platter, i'd be morally offended.  ;)

hey, just kidding about the whining rabbit food eaters thing.

let's face it, if you or me or anyone knew that if they ate a peanut they'd drop dead, you wouldn't take the word of the kid at the register.  people have a responsibility to themselves, and they should make sure they get an answer with which they're comfortable before putting something in their mouth.

on a related thought:  vegetarians, please, don't go to BK.  there's nothing there that you can eat, and there probably won't be in your lifetime.  i mean, the smell of that place alone would make a cow gag.

[Ron Johnson]

Would a rabbit eat a BK veggie?  Or just hump the hell out of it?

[Beachfan]

I love this post.  As my wife is a vegetarian, I often am in an advocacy position for them.  An even Steve put down his pork fork to dabble!

Some comments:

1) Going to BK/McDs and complaining about the grease taint is like going to a whorehouse and complaining you weren't loved.  

2)  It's great to have an option; even if it has the ever present beef molecules.

3) Cooking on the same grill should be expected.  You can ask them to try to use a clear part of the grill, so it isn't in a puddle of fat.

This isn't the same level of offense as McDonalds secret french fry recipe of earlier years (cook them in tallow but don't tell anyone).  The difference is that one is obvious.

4) Vegetarians ALWAYS have to exercise Caveat Emptor.  

Domestic Example (common, even in a fine restaurant):

Q: Is this a vegetarian soup?

A: Yes.  

Q: Does it have meat?

A: No

Q: Is the stock a vegetable stock?

A: No, it's chicken stock.

Imported Example:

Q: "Senza Carne?"  (pointing to her mostly eaten pasta dish).

A "Si, senza carne".

Q "What's this?" (my wife points to a bone that was hidden at the bottom).

A "No meat" beams the waiter! (ie., no meat, it was bone).

Q "What's this?" repeats my wife.

A "For the flavor!!" says the waiter, beaming even more, so proud!

5) Trader Joe's used to have the best burgers (Mushroom Burgers), as measured by a standard that doesn't include evocation of beef memories.  Now, they have a new formulation that includes cheddar cheese, but isn't quite as good as the old one (especially the old one with cheddar on it).  Now it's similar to a Garden Burger (which are pretty decent).

[Ron Johnson]

BK is like a whorehouse?  I have never gotten any action at Burger King.  damn.

I agree with your domestic example of caveat emptor, and it was what my friend did.  However, as Tommy points out, BK is an advocate of hiring the perpetually stoned and severely mentally disabled, so apparently the proper course of action is to swing through the drive-thru window at the corporate headquarters so that you can ask the CEO if your veggie burger has floated down a chute of meat grease prior to service.  of course, your wife, being a vegetarian, may already know this.

[jhlurie]

Is this called splitting hairs?

I see it as on the same level as asking "do they use animal by-product free" cooking oil.  It's the same thing... a question of whether the terminology changes because animal products are present with the vegetables.  Frankly, I'm not sure if it  should or shouldn't... but it's a valid question if tommy's claims about "veggie" being a derivative of "vegetable" are true.

[tommy]

...so apparently the proper course of action is to swing through the drive-thru window at the corporate headquarters so that you can ask the CEO if your veggie burger has floated down a chute of meat grease prior to service.  

SHEW!  *finally* he catches on.  i'm knackered.  

:)

and since this morning i've gotten f--k all done.

[tommy]

as much as i like having the last word, it's kind of boring.  can someone please say something?  

fine.  richard shindell is playing at william paterson university on sunday (NJ).  just thought i'd add something.

[Jinmyo]

The Last Word.

[Beachfan]

Speaking of vegetarians;

What did the Zen master say to the hot dog vendor?

Make me one with everything.

[John Whiting]

"This isn't the same level of offense as McDonalds secret french fry recipe of earlier years (cook them in tallow but don't tell anyone).  The difference is that one is obvious."

God knows I'm no lover of McDonalds, but this  story has grown into an urban myth of exaggerated proportions. What happened was that, when they went over to vegetable oil, many people quite understandably missed the flavor of dripping, and so the food magicians in New Jersey came up with a chemical extract from beef which was able to provide something of that flavor with a minute quantity -- much less actual meat content that one would get out of grill contact, for instance. In fact, the quantity was so minute that it would not legally have to be listed as an ingredient.

But since the most vociferous objections were religious -- i.e., the food had to be as microscopically unpoluted as for Passover -- they ended up in serious trouble.

[jhlurie]

as much as i liking having the last word, it's kind of boring.  can someone please say something?  

fine.  richard shindell is playing at william paterson university on sunday (NJ).  just thought i'd add something.

okay if we are changing topic to something random and unrelated, here's a personality test, tommy:

which celebrity death was more of a shame... Milton Berle or Dudley Moore?

(saying "Billy Wilder" is a cheat, you've got to pick between these two)

[tommy]

dudley of course.