oysters only in "r" months

[fresco]

The red tide discussion may be a bit of a red herring. Unless I am far wrong, the injunction against eating oysters, clams and mussels in non-R months began because that's when they spawn, at least in  colder waters, and are therefore less succulent, not because they are more dangerous.

The red tide phenomenon is an entirely different thing and can be managed.

Trust me... In the south, contamination is a real issue. 35 years ago I was a foods microbiologist with FDA in New Orleans. Every summer, we were chasing food poisoning cases from raw oysters. It was a real test to identify the culprits in a lot of cases. We would find huge bacterial loads. I remember one celebrated case out of Mobile Bay that we never did figure out the origin of the particular Vibrio bug involved.

Sure, but is contamination a rigidly summer/winter thing?

Edited August 27, 2003 by fresco (log)

[fifi]

The red tide discussion may be a bit of a red herring. Unless I am far wrong, the injunction against eating oysters, clams and mussels in non-R months began because that's when they spawn, at least in  colder waters, and are therefore less succulent, not because they are more dangerous.

The red tide phenomenon is an entirely different thing and can be managed.

Trust me... In the south, contamination is a real issue. 35 years ago I was a foods microbiologist with FDA in New Orleans. Every summer, we were chasing food poisoning cases from raw oysters. It was a real test to identify the culprits in a lot of cases. We would find huge bacterial loads. I remember one celebrated case out of Mobile Bay that we never did figure out the origin of the particular Vibrio bug involved.

Sure, but is contamination a summer/winter thing?

Pretty much. We didn't have nearly as many cases during the "r" months. Actually, almost none. And we were the lab that investigated any instances for the whole southeast region. The problem is the high water temperatures in our bays. At least, that was our answer. I think it was investigated further at LSU and that was the answer.

[tommy]

Pretty much. We didn't have nearly as many cases during the "r" months. Actually, almost none. And we were the lab that investigated any instances for the whole southeast region. The problem is the high water temperatures in our bays. At least, that was our answer. I think it was investigated further at LSU and that was the answer.

are you still talking about 35 years ago?

[fifi]

Pretty much. We didn't have nearly as many cases during the "r" months. Actually, almost none. And we were the lab that investigated any instances for the whole southeast region. The problem is the high water temperatures in our bays. At least, that was our answer. I think it was investigated further at LSU and that was the answer.

are you still talking about 35 years ago?

What has changed in 35 years is that there is more monitoring of bacterial counts where the oyster beds are. They do routinely shut down harvesting when the monitoring indicates higher counts. This can happen when you have a lot of run-off from heavy rains combined with high water temperatures. We are doing a much better job now of insuring the safety of the oysters. But it is not perfect. I have friends that are immune system compromised due to transplant rejection suppression drugs or HIV. Raw oysters are DEFINITELY off the menu. Raw oysters are a risk but many folks choose to accept that risk. So be it. I don't believe in a zero risk existence. Hell... I get food poisoning about once a year because I like things like crab meat and eat it a lot in restaurants. (You really don't want to know about crab meat.) I think that it is revenge from all of the bugs that I cooked in our autoclave years ago.

[fresco]

Okay, so oysters from water waters may be more of a health hazard. But isn't the real issue--assuming you're willing to take some risks-- that they don't taste nearly as good as oysters from colder waters?

[fifi]

Okay, so oysters from water waters may be more of a health hazard. But isn't the real issue--assuming you're willing to take some risks-- that they don't taste nearly as good as oysters from colder waters?

That is what my local oyster loving friends tell me. The summer oysters aren't all that good so why take the risk. Let the tourists take the risk.

[Nick]

Well, after I brought up red tide earlier, people seemed to have latched onto that. So now I'll bring up the effect of fresh water run-off from storms into the estuaries during the warmer months. Whatta ya' all think about the effects of that on the viability of safe shellfish eating?

[tommy]

Okay, so oysters from water waters may be more of a health hazard. But isn't the real issue--assuming you're willing to take some risks-- that they don't taste nearly as good as oysters from colder waters?

That is what my local oyster loving friends tell me. The summer oysters aren't all that good so why take the risk. Let the tourists take the risk.

what about the summer oysters from cold water.

[fresco]

Okay, so oysters from water waters may be more of a health hazard. But isn't the real issue--assuming you're willing to take some risks-- that they don't taste nearly as good as oysters from colder waters?

That is what my local oyster loving friends tell me. The summer oysters aren't all that good so why take the risk. Let the tourists take the risk.

what about the summer oysters from cold water.

Think Lesley answered this one early on--oyster farmers are working to eliminate "milky" aspect to summer harvested cold water oysters.

[Dave the Cook]

isn't the real issue--assuming you're willing to take some risks-- that they don't taste nearly as good as oysters from colder waters?

I wouldn't necessarily agree that cold-water oysters taste better. I would agree that they taste different, and in a way that might not appeal to everyone. But the reverse is probably also true, just as some people prefer spiny lobster to Maine lobster.

But I wouldn't pass up an invitation to either one -- as long as fifi or Nick has OK'd them.

[tommy]

Think Lesley answered this one early on--oyster farmers are working to eliminate "milky" aspect to summer harvested cold water oysters.

ah, so it's not a summer thing, or even a warm water thing, it's a reproduction thing, which happens to happen in the summer for most or all oysters?

[fresco]

Fifi is much better equipped to answer for warmer water oysters, but yes, definitely, it's the summer of love in cold waters.

[fifi]

Think Lesley answered this one early on--oyster farmers are working to eliminate "milky" aspect to summer harvested cold water oysters.

ah, so it's not a summer thing, or even a warm water thing, it's a reproduction thing, which happens to happen in the summer for most or all oysters?

That is the taste and texture thing. Not the risk thing. It just so happens that the taste thing and the risk thing coincide in warm waters. Therefore the "r" month lore.

[tommy]

That is the taste and texture thing. Not the risk thing. It just so happens that the taste thing and the risk thing coincide in warm waters. Therefore the "r" month lore.

but my assumption is that not all water is warm in the summer.

[fifi]

That is the taste and texture thing. Not the risk thing. It just so happens that the taste thing and the risk thing coincide in warm waters. Therefore the "r" month lore.

but my assumption is that not all water is warm in the summer.

You are correct. I suspect that the "r" lore in northern climes originates in the taste and texture things whereas the "r" lore in southern climes originates in taste, texture AND risk.

When I was a kid and my family had a place on the water, we would crab, fish, shrimp and gather oysters. My dad, grandpa and uncles would never gather oysters in the summer. Well... They decided not to because when they did succumb to temptation, they would get a case of "the runs".

[Sweet Willie]

I had the best oysters of my entire life (Kumamoto) three weeks ago.

they're like freakin' candy.

AGREED!!!!!

I had not had an oyster I didn't like until this past December in Normandy. There were oysters everywhere and I tried 6 different times to enjoy the local raw oysters and 6 times I did not like them. They were very metallic tasting IMO.

[fifi]

Well, after I brought up red tide earlier, people seemed to have latched onto that. So now I'll bring up the effect of fresh water run-off from storms into the estuaries during the warmer months. Whatta ya' all think about the effects of that on the viability of safe shellfish eating?

I missed your post earlier so I will answer it now.

In the gulf coast where we have high water temperatures and are also subject to torrential rains from tropical storms, large thunderstorm complexes, etc., that run-off is always a red flag. It is my understanding that those that are charged with monitoring the health of the bays are on alert when such conditions exist. Like I said before, they are doing a much better job than they have in the past. But they are not perfect so you have to decide if you really want to eat that raw oyster.

The red tide is predictable and manageable so that is not really an issue anymore from what I can tell.

[theakston]

Just a quick thought. I agree that you don't want to eat anything that comes out of 85 degree water. But isn't the water a lot cooler in may / June or than in septembeR or even octobeR?

I also hate that milky taste that is, I guess, related to the spawning cycle.

Does this cycle relate to the "non R" months? ( because water temp doesn't seem to).

[guajolote]

This is interesting

Maybe the milkiness only occurs in the Ostrea, which are both male and female?

The oysters we eat belong to two genera, Ostrea and Crassostrea, which differ not only in appearance (Ostrea are rounder, more like scallop shells, and Crassostrea are elongated and asymmetrical) but also in their styles of hermaphrodism.

Oyster Reproduction: Au Naturel

Members of the genus Ostrea are bisexual, that is, they alternate between being male and female during the course of a single breeding season. During a female phase, the oyster deposits eggs within the shell, and these eggs are fertilized by sperm released when the same oyster switches to a male phase. After a 12-day period of incubation, the larval oysters, or spat, swim away from the parent in search of their own place to settle.

Members of genus Crassostrea are intersexual. They begin life as males, and then change to females the following season. After this, they remain primarily female but revert from time to time into males. Reproduction is quite a bit more haphazard for this genus, because the eggs and sperm are released directly into the water, and fertilization takes place when a pair happens to cross paths. Successfully fertilized eggs, should they survive, rapidly grow into spat, and they, too, swim off in search of a home.

[Adam Balic]

Depends on the oyster species also. Some are summer spawners, some are winter spawners.

[tommy]

Depends on the oyster species also. Some are summer spawners, some are winter spawners.

so again we're back to the whole "do months matter at *all*" issue.

[Adam Balic]

Well depending on the exact species and the exact time and location, yes or no. It depends.

Mussels one the other hand are much more restricted species-wise commercially and they are rubbish when they are not full of sperm or eggs. In this case you can be more sure.

[Huevos del Toro]

I am not an oyster lover but I wouldn't eat a Gulf Coast oyster in the non-r months on a bet. The bays where the oyster reefs are are like a freakin' petri dish. We are talking water temperatures of 85 or more. That, plus those are the reproductive months for that type of oyster and the texture and taste is not its best.

In the May 2003 issue of “D” Magazine (Dallas) there was an article describing the circumstances under which two people died from eating Gulf Coast oysters. The full article can be purchased for $3USD

Excerpt:

“Two people died less than four months apart after eating raw Gulf Coast oysters at a local seafood chain. Whether these two deaths were the result of negligence or simply an unfortunate coincidence, the courts will decide. But one thing is certain: if you order Gulf Coast oysters at any restaurant—and if you want to survive the meal—you'd better know how they got to your table.”

Love mussels and octopus!!!

[Nick]

..... I suspect that the "r" lore in northern climes originates in the taste and texture things whereas the "r" lore in southern climes originates in taste, texture AND risk.

The "r" lore in northern climes holds true today for safety reasons.

[KatieLoeb]

Isn't a lot of this "food folklore" related to the days of yore when there was no refrigeration, no shellfish/fish farming, etc.? It's the same basis for not eating bottom feeders or pork if you keep kosher. Back in the days of rampant trichinosis and skanky shellfish without refrigeration there was logic to this. Nowadays if you have a fish purveyor or a restaurant that you trust, it's more myth and legend than fact, I think.

I just had some AWE inspiring Kumamoto oysters last month that were just perfection on the half shell. My restaurant still serves oysters all summmer, but they are carefully chosen by the chef from their sources. No one wants to risk a law suit from food poisoning or worse. I suspect the risks involved have far more to do with sourcing than with whether or not the month has an "r" in it.