Tipping on Wine

[Bux]

I thought Vengroff said all that needed to be said the first time. For my part, I don't order wine on which I can't afford to tip. Vengroff mentioned "social fabric." I don't buy any argument that you need the wine more than the waiter needs the tip. If you can live like a sport, you can act like one. If you drink like a sport, tip like one.

The more interesting questions deal with how one tips on things that are comped. My philosophy is to tip on the price of everything I've ordered, or would have ordered, but not necessarily on what's offered if I wouldn't have ordered it. If I don't order an aperitif and the owner sends me a glass of champagne, it may not affect my tip, but if I order a bottle of wine and then I'm told it was a gift of the house, I will try to remember to add the cost to my bill before figuring my tip. Generally that kind of treatment will increase my tip anyway, so the owner is treating his help as he is treating me.

[KatieLoeb]

Katie:

You are my hero.

Beans:

Aw shucks - I don't even know how to respond to that. Having worn your well worn shoes in previous incarnations, I thank you for the compliment.

Vengroff is correct in his equating of costs. Look - I don't claim to be a rocket scientist, however certain things become evident over time and experience. In my current position, I take of Beverage Cost Accounting. Part of my responsiblilty for a group of three restaurants is to physically take the inventory of the one where my office is located (Striped Bass), punch that inventory (and the other two from Rouge and Bleu) into a weekly spreadsheet program that allow the Beverage Director to see the ending inventories and how that compares to the par, and place the liquor orders in a timely fashion for delivery later in the week. I check in that liquor order when it arrives, to make sure that what we paid for is what got delivered. I enter the weekly sales and make sure that what we started with, plus what we bought, minus what we sold, equals what we had when I counted it this week. Make sense? I can assure you that the bottle of wine that costs us $20 and that we mark up at 40% cost and sell for $50 on the list, will need to be replaced next week or might even be "86'd" before the following weekend. The bottle of Gaja, on the other hand, that cost us $140 and that we are selling for $325 (because you can't get away with the 40% markup on higher end products) will sit and sit and sit for months or even longer and tie up cellar space that could be devoted to products with higher turnover, until one customer who is a wine aficionado (or has an expense account!) and is willing to spend for it, buys it. If the equation is that we are tipping based on the "time and effort it takes the restaurant to provide that bottle", then you should tip MORE for the high end products, which often must be special ordered, and are allocated due to small supply, etc. Do we see where I'm going with this yet???

Tip on sales cost. Everything is conveniently already figured into that equation for you, by folks on the "other side" of the equation. Capice?

[carpet bagger]

Where do I begin? Most of the time I bring my own wine to the restaurant. If the service is proper, attentive and caring, then I tip appropriately. Usually 25 to 30 percent. If the service is not so good then the tip becomes less. Beans it would seem to me that if you would focus on providing the best service that you can. Such as bring the proper glasses, decanting the wines, topping them up, making sure that the right glasses are brought for each type of wine then you should never have to sound so bitter about the possibility of being short changed on your tips. Remember that the service should come before the tip is earned. I am not an accountant, but if I served a large check and was short changed on the tip I would ask the boss for a copy so I could give it to my accountant so he could adjust my taxes at the end of the year. Then I would soul serch and see if maybe, just maybe I did or didn't do something to deserve the lesser tip. Katie I like your summation, Do the work earn the tip. I think tipping should be on the wine as well. In general if you can afford the more expensive then you can afford the bigger tip. I would hope the restaurant is capable of handling the more expensive wine properly. Go out often eat well, drink well, be served well and tip well.

[tommy]

Whether I'm an exception or not whatev.

Tip your server.  If you can't morally do it, then don't eat out.  They are still held accountable for the amount of their sales volume so don't be a shmuck and wimp out on what is rightfully their tip, given they don't stick their finger in your food or drink, at least what you know of....

Folks don't be a cheap bastard when dining out.  You'd be surprised to know what a memory servers have with regard to whomever regular joe is that stiffs them.

calling people names isn't going to help.

food for 2: 250

bottle of wine: 200

tip on food at 20%: 50

tip on wine at 10%: 20

total bill for food and wine: 450

total tip for food and wine: 70

computed tip at approx 15.5% of total bill.

i don't see a problem here.

Edited June 10, 2003 by tommy (log)

[glenn]

That servers total sales for any given pay period, are by definition, THEIR sales, whether they are based on one shift or ten.  On average for that one shift, they should still be making way more than I declare for them.  If not, either they suck and should be fired, or they're a magnet for lousy customers  Their percentage of the total restaurant sales for that period might vary from pay period to pay period, but their tips are hopefully at least what I declared for them.

Katie, while your logic may be unimpeachable, what you are doing is using your own rationale instead of following the statutes. I do not disagree with your system as I have previously stated I do more or less the same thing, but you should understand that this "system" is not in accordance with the statutes. It would be different if you entered into a Voluntary Compliance Agreement such as the Tipped Employee Participation Agreement (TEPA) with the IRS which allows you and the IRS to determine an appropriate tip rate. There are 3 such IRS agreements available and it takes a lot of the burden off the employer while also being fair to the employee.

The only provision other than entering into a voluntary agreement to arbitrarily allocate tips is if the tips are less than 8% of the gross receipts. You can then allocate tips based on the gross receipt method (or hours worked or good faith). For more info, see the IRS site.

[beans]

tommy:

The "names" aren't directed to anyone specific to take offense. I just call it as I see it because whatever is the rationale behind that bottom line tip, if it doens't equate at least 15% of the grand total, well then most get salty and somewhat resentful as the the never-ending "why"????? rings in their heads. Most service folk don't take the time to add up and delegate a portion of the amount of the tip to x percent toward the food part of the bill and y percent to the wine portion in comforting rationalization. And besides when tipping out all of those that helped your sevice, which BTW was nothing less than spectacular, they don't care what percentage you were tipped out on your wine sales. Not earning a 15% or above equates the guest was displeased on the service, or is too cheap to tip what is usual and customary. Managers take note too, sometimes equating it to something negative toward that server's job performance.

I've worked in restaurants where the server's assistant, bartender, hostess and expo were tipped out from your evening's earnings and it was all against a circled grand total of your shift sales report. There are usually preset percentage amounts to each person/position, but it is at your discretion if you straight line percentage them to the penny or just fork out a few extra bucks because you know pouring 17 different wines by the glass for one drink order just plain old sucks.

These are things customers need to understand that the whopping amount they feel they are excessively tipping out to their wine service is not necessarily what reaches that server's sole little pocket. It is divi-ed up to reward the team effort that made that dining experience all possible.

Oh, I know, parting with funds is always an emotionally charged sore spot, but that's when I make the decision to go out to eat or stay home and raid the wine cellar and fire up the grill. I tip obscene amounts when I go out and it is remembered when that person comes to my place of business, Cleveland isn't that big.

[tommy]

I just call it as I see it because whatever is the rationale behind that bottom line tip, if it doens't equate at least 15% of the grand total, well then most get salty and somewhat resentful as the the never-ending "why"????? rings in their heads.  Most service folk don't take the time to add up and delegate a portion of the amount of the tip to x percent toward the food part of the bill and y percent to the wine portion in comforting rationalization.  And besides when tipping out all of those that helped your sevice, which BTW was nothing less than spectacular, they don't care what percentage you were tipped out on your wine sales.  Not earning a 15% or above equates the guest was displeased on the service, or is too cheap to tip what is usual and customary.  Managers take note too, sometimes equating it to something negative toward that server's job performance.

server folk don't have to do any math in their head other than knowing what they got as a tip was quite possibly still higher than the other tables.

i just can't sympathize with someone who is getting a 70 dollar tip, and one that equates to 15%, as in my above example. if a server has a problem with that, he/she might consider a different line of work.

Edited June 10, 2003 by tommy (log)

[beans]

It would be different if you entered into a Voluntary Compliance Agreement  such as the Tipped Employee Participation Agreement (TEPA) with the IRS which allows you and the IRS to determine an appropriate tip rate.  There are 3 such IRS agreements available and it takes a lot of the burden off the employer while also being fair to the employee.

glenn:

Were these the articles you were thinking of?

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=...=106783,00.html

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/page/0,,id=...d=15580,00.html

The IRS has a sense of humour? (hee hee) I had to giggle with some of those "5 Phrases for Getting Bigger Tips."

Yes, allocations are the pits.

[beans]

server folk don't have to do any math in their head other than knowing what they got as a tip was quite possibly still higher than the other tables. 

But they do the math each and everytime, at least where I work.

tommy have you ever served?

[tommy]

server folk don't have to do any math in their head other than knowing what they got as a tip was quite possibly still higher than the other tables. 

But they do the math each and everytime, at least where I work.

tommy have you ever served?

well then they should realize that they not only got 15%, but also $70, which is more than what they would have gotten had the table ordered a 40 dollar bottle.

yes, i've served. not that this matters.

[mdibiaso]

This was a very interesting topic. I recently asked a question on the French board about service fees and wines vs food. Would the price of the wine every change your opinion? Say you buy a bottle for 5000 dollars, do you suggest a 750-1000 dollar tip? What about if you are in France where tipping is not as expected but many American do still tip? Do you still give that 15-20% on the 5000 dollar bottle? Is it still true that a restaurant in France would not give any of that service fee on the bill to the wine staff even if they sold a 5000 dollar bottle. Any one out their want to buy me a 5000 dollar bottle

[beans]

Tipping culture. It is geography-specific.

Now the $5000 bottle of wine is a bit extreme. While I don't doubt there is such a bottle to command that amount of change, the likelihood I would be ordering it would depend on my luck to win the Mega Lottery and become an instant multi-millionaire. Highly improbable.

That being said, I tip what is ordinary and customary in accordance where I am. When it is the American way of paying service staff barely more than $2.13 an hour, tips are essential to make ends meet, and being in the service industry, I tip and tip fat. But that is not limited to my travels throughout the States, I will always compensate those with what is comensurate to their effort in providing a pleasurable experience, be it handling my luggage, expertly concocting a fine cocktail, opening/pouring a beer, serving a meal and/or pouring and decanting a lovely bottle of wine.

[Sparkitus]

Wow, this is always a hot topic and I'm glad to see it handled in a fairly intelligent manner here. As a long time server and sommelier, I have always considered it just a matter of course that I tip 18 to 20% on my bill regardless of the wine purchases. When I tip a server 15% or less, they must have pissed me off or they just didn't care.

But that's me. People who don't tip on wine, or worse - don't tip on a gift certificate - I write them off and thank god I work in a pooled house which allows the entire staff to absorb the affects of the inconsiderate or ill-bred.

Now, having had my say on that matter, I will point to an angle that hasn't really been addressed here as yet: someone (like myself) goes through a lot of training and trouble and expense to create a wine list, train their staffs and purchase (and replace) stemware. Bringing your own wine to a restaurant is cool if it's a bottle not on the list and is "special." Anything by Kendall Jackson or Turning Leaf will probably never appear on a list I write, frankly, so if someone brings in something like that it is because they are trying to save money, which is no sin, but honestly- you are still going to pay at least a $20 corkage fee, so you will drink better if you order a wine of the equivalent price off the list. And I certainly hope you called ahead to get an ok from the wine guy to bring that bottle in (which most people never do, btw), because in most cases (as in MASS where I worked for years) it is totally illegal.

That said, if someone shows up with wine, it is not good hospitality to approve or disapprove of the bottle, and I will always serve what they have brought cheerfully and professionally. If they bring something "special" like an older or rarer bottle that I don't list, then I will certainly treat them well and might even consider waiving the corkage fee if they're willing to share a taste with me or my staff. The only time a restaurant should really put their foot down is when someone shows up with a wine that is already on the list, even if they vintage is slightly different (say, within, three or so years); that is just out of the question. And I've seen wholesale reps do this (and then wonder why they can't sell me more wine in the future).

The upshot is that bringing your own wine in to a restaurant, especially one noted for its wine programs, you should expect to pay a corkage fee and do so gladly. And no, you should not tip on the corkage fee, sorry fellow waiters.

[tommy]

And no, you should not tip on the corkage fee, sorry fellow waiters.

why not? to me that says that you're not tipping on the wine service at all.

[beans]

Welcome Sparkitus. Nice post.

[carpet bagger]

Welcome Spartikus. Really nice post. The only thing I would change or add is; rather than tip on the corkage I would tip on the way the wine service was handled. Not a percentage of something but a reflection of the service itself. The tip based on the corkage would never be enough. I also agree about waiving the corkage when the wine is a boutique or very old or special, if shared with the help. I get very disappointed if they get a pour and don't waive the corkage. Otherwise as I said I agree with all you said. Thanks again and welcome.

[tommy]

The only thing I would change or add is; rather than tip on the corkage I would tip on the way the wine service was handled. Not a percentage of something but a reflection of the service itself.

so, going back to an ealier discussion, would you tip the same on a $400 bottle as you would an $80 bottle?

[carpet bagger]

Tommy if I brought the bottle, and it was in theory $400 I would tip the same if in theory another bottle was the $80 variety. If the wines were older and required very special attention then I would tip extra. Again it would be on the service not on the cost of the wine. I have never had a problem with being considered too light a tipper anywhere I go, and am known. I must add that I almost always bring my own wine. Not necessarily to save money, but to bring wines I have which are older and often not available. I don't mind sharing a pour either. Last week some friends and my wife and I brought and shared 1959 Leoville Las Casse and 1961 Baron Longville (forgive the spelling). We not only paid corkage but tipped as well. The tip was not based on the value of the wine. A little over 25% of the total bill including corkage and a tatste of the wines. They also tasted the white Burgundies as well. I don't think they were unhappy.

[tommy]

carpet bagger, i meant when you buy wines at the restaurant. i should have been clearer. do you tip the same in the event that you buy a bottle from the restaurant, given your approach to tip on the level of service rather than value of the wine.

thanks.

[beans]

Who is talking about what here? The BYOB or the wine purchase off the wine list at the restaurant? Clarification please!

Seems carpet bagger is talking about the BYOB of his expensive bottle of wine and tips on the wine service. (very nice)

Tommy were you asking about that? Or the purchase of that $400 bottle while dining?

[carpet bagger]

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Mostly because I can't imagine spending $400 on a bottle of wine. In principal I would tip on the actual cost of the wine. Keep in mind that I may adjust that if I were to ever spend over say $200 per bottle. Maybe I believe that if you can afford $400 for a bottle then you should be able to afford to tip on that price. ( If you go to a restaurant that has a special menu that includes caviar and lobster and foie gras etc, which would increase the tab, then you must tip based on the total. Certainly not less because you bought more expensive items.) I mentioned before that the attention better be in line with the amount spent and the items ordered. I hope that covers all the options. I love being spoiled by the people that wait on me and my friends and I try to reward them accordingly.

[tommy]

Keep in mind that I may adjust that if I were to ever spend over say $200 per bottle.

alrighty then. thanks.