Shouldn't the consumer be aware

[tommy]

A plea for realism.

c'mon dude. we've run out of things to talk about. can't we just go over this simple issue a few more times?

i'm beggin ya.

[Bux]

On the one hand allergies, on the other hand dietary restrictions, and on the unexpected third hand things people might not like or want.  Lethal peanuts, irreligious bacon, creepy caul fat.

Jeniac42 was right.  Imagine your server having to pre-guess and pre-address, for every customer, even just the most likely ingredients on the menu to cause illness, religious offence or squeamish.  If you need to know about caul fat, do you also need to know if something's fried in lard?  By the time your server has introduced his or her self, dealt with these ingredient issues, and listed the specials, it'll be time to go home.

A plea for realism.

Obviously the caul fat had completely melted away by the time the fish was served and it's sole purpose (or it's salmon purpose?) was to baste the fish during cooking. Would it have been important to know if the salmon was covered in butter, olive oil or lard while is was in the oven or pan?

I always think of the good come backs too late to have any effect, but the question "Do you know what that was wrapped in?" is best answered by "Newspapers?"

[Suzanne F]

... a waiter at CB explained that the vegetarian sounding squash soup contained meat as did the rissotto.  (why they wer unable to accomodate a request to do this with vegetable stock I don't know).

I assume you are talking about the risotto. A long simmered pureed soup can't be made to order at the last minute, but even making the risotto with vegetable stock would assume there was a vegetable stock on hand. There's no reason to believe that a complex vegetable stock might be available in any particular restuarant if there was not a dish on the menu that made use of it. I'm not sure if this is Cafe Boulud or Craft Bar, but a good vegetable broth takes longer to make than does risotto and it's the sort of thing a restuarant makes during prep time and not when every station is busy with preparing orders.

I hate to disillusion anyone, but I doubt many restaurants make their risotto à la minute. Follonico did not; Le Bernardin did not, when I was there. Generally risotto is partially cooked and chilled, and then heated and finished at serving time. So if it is normally started with meat stock, Ajay would be out of luck. If, however, it is started with vegetable stock and only finished with meat stock, his request would be easy. (Vegetable stock is one of those staple items you always have on hand, if you use it at all.)

Edited March 12, 2003 by Suzanne F (log)

[Louisa Chu]

A few words of warning: don't eat in France. Here, we think it's a blessing, a god damn gift, if someone throws a bit of bacon into a turkey sandwich. Caul fat? Bring it on. Potatoes? Goose fat baby. No wonder French chefs hate Americans.

[KateW]

I always think of the good come backs too late to have any effect, but the question "Do you know what that was wrapped in?" is best answered by "Newspapers?"

ROFL

[Pan]

britcook:

If you order a turkey sandwich what you should get is a sandwich in which the main ingredient is turkey.

But I didn't order simply a turkey sandwich. I ordered a "turkey sandwich on whole wheat with lettuce, tomato, red onion, and provolone cheese."

Now turkey on its own can be fairly bland and I often add a little "extra something" to kick it up a bit

Right. The purpose of the onions and the provolone cheese. If you have a better suggestion, feel free to go ahead and propose it to me - or just give me what I ordered. Those are your two options, as far as I'm concerned. If you do something else, you risk pissing off your customer.

Our responsibility as higher beings is to do this as ethically, painlessly and humanely as possible, not to throw up our hands up in horror and declare the process "barbaric". Thus people who adopt this lifestyle attitude (many with deeply held moral beliefs about it) are seen by omnivores as "not quite right, out of touch with reality" and as people who can resist the siren call of bacon being cooked, have no ideas about some of the real pleasures of life.

I'm not a vegetarian and probably would have trouble marrying one, because I, too, am an omnivore and share your belief that human beings are essentially omnivorous by nature (and I'd like to be able to share a lot of my food with my partner), but the fact is that human beings can survive very nicely on just vegetable matter, and it seems like I'm much more tolerant of vegetarians than you. Live and let live.

As for the caul fat issue, I don't feel very strongly about that. Those of you who say that a restaurant patron has the choice to either ask specifically whether a "type x" ingredient they don't want is in the sauce or roll the dice are fundamentally right. But what someone starts saying it's not reasonable for me to assume that a turkey sandwich doesn't include other meat I didn't order, I have a big problem with that. If I order a turkey sandwich and it comes with tuna fish, I'd be pissed. And I might well be annoyed with bacon because a reason I'd order a turkey sandwich rather than roast beef (which I generally prefer) is to cut down on the fat for the sake of my stomach at that time. You didn't think of that, did you, Chef?

(Gee, are things that different in Britain? Mark Twain [?] was right, wasn't he, when he said the Brits and Americans are "divided by a common language." )

[britcook]

...but the fact is that human beings can survive very nicely on just vegetable matter, and it seems like I'm much more tolerant of vegetarians than you. Live and let live.

Well yes, if that's your choice of food then I'm fine with it too. Views expressed in the post were not necessarily personal, just an explanation of what might be the reasoning behind some of the things happening. On the sandwich issue I'm broadly in agreement, if you order specific items then that should be all you get, and if they want to add stuff they should ask. OTOH if you just order a "turkey sandwich" then you get the dressings and accompaniments they think suitable, unless you tell what you don't want.

[Louisa Chu]

An example of this might be Artichokes a la Grecque. Now I have no idea what "a la Grecque" might mean in this context, but it's a signal of a special preparation so I would ask.

Just wanted to define "a la grecque". Dish prepared with typically Greek flavours - olive oil, lemon, etc. Usually vegetables - artichokes, fennel, etc. - marinated then braised then served warm or cold. No meat or caul fat. Normally.

[g.johnson]

(Gee, are things that different in Britain? Mark Twain [?] was right, wasn't he, when he said the Brits and Americans are "divided by a common language."  )

Oscar Wilde said it first and best.

We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language.

The Canterville Ghost

Bernard Shaw is credited with the more commonly know phrase but its source is not known.

England and America are two countries divided by a common language.