Ordering wine in Paris restaurant

[rpdkpd]

I have a wonderful series of lunches/dinners booked in Paris later this month (Taillevent, Bamboche, Train Bleu, Chez Michel (10e)), but I need advice on ordering wine.

Specifically, will the various "menus" (edited to answer Bux's question: I meant menu rather than a la carte) typically have accompanying wines by the glass, or will I need to order a bottle or two to spread over the courses? At Taillevent (lunch) and Bamboche (dinner) there will just be two of us, so I would prefer to order by the glass. But, even though I am fluent in French, I don't want to be tagged as the "fou Americain."

Any advice would be welcomed!

Edited February 14, 2003 by rpdkpd (log)

[Bux]

When you say "menu" do you mean menu or carte? The former being a set number of courses comprising a meal. The latter is the "menu" from which you may order à la carte and compose your own menu. Most restaurant have wine by the glass. In some it will be a choice of red or white, while at others there will be a broader choice. Selections of wine by glass to match each course, of a tasting menu, are not uncommon, but also not the rule. The only one of your four choices in which I've eaten is Chez Michel. The Belgian couple with wnom we were dining declared they didn't drink much and only drank red wine. So we ordered a bottle of red for the table and a half bottle of white wine for my wife and myself to accompany our first courses. I don't remember asking if they had wines by the glass, but I'd bet they do.

One thing I've noticed is that the French, unless they are in the wine trade or fanatic about wines, are usually quite content to drink the same wine thoughout dinner and more often than not, it's red. Some restaurants will have an excellent selection of half bottles, some will not. Some half bottles seem well priced in comparison with full bottles and some do not. If you are fluent in French you may find that as often as not, if you can allow yourself to see the humor in being dubbed as the "fou American" they will smile along with you when you politiely poke fun back at them. It may take a while before you feel comfortable enough with the humor to allow yourself that luxury. The French are a people of inflexible social politeness whose rules govern their public behavior.

[hollywood]

I feel certain that if you trust the staff at Taillevent they will be able to recommend a suitable wine, perhaps a half bottle or by the glass. They are very accomodating. Once you get over any awe re the appearance of formality, the situation is actually very user friendly. You may find their site of interest, and you may want to visit their caves.

http://www.taillevent.com/english/frameset...calc2&b_1_7&5&9

Edited February 14, 2003 by hollywood (log)

[Tonyfinch]

But, even though I am fluent in French, I don't want to be tagged as the "fou Americain."

I'm always amused at how some Americans appear to worry about how they are perceived by these very high end Parisian restaurants. You (not you personally) start with the tortuous machinations of booking a table and being grateful to the restaurant for deigning to allow you to eat there and carry on with a kind of awed deference, worrying what the waiters will think of you if you do this or don't do that.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking for wine and menu advice. But they're there to serve YOU. You're paying and while I don't subscribe to the absurd theory that the customer is ALWAYS right, but if you behave properly and treat people with respect then let THEM worry what YOU think of THEM!

Edited February 15, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

rpdkpd - Well let me try and actually answer the question you asked. It is not typical for restaurants in France to offer wines by the glass that have been paired with individual courses. You will see it sometimes, specifically with tasting menus, but in my experience it is unusual to find it. Of course you can always order a glass of vin rouge or vin blanc, but that is probably cheap wine of poor quality. Some restaurants, most notable brasseries, sell wine by the "pot" or carafe which is anywhere from 2-4 glasses. But again, you are talking about the requisite quality and not anything really good. France is basically a "by the bottle" country. If you are inexperienced in wine, what I suggest you do is to establish a pricepoint and tell the sommelier in a restaurant, or waiter in a bistro, what food you are ordering and ask him what type of wine he would suggest at your pricepoint. If you know very little about wine, that will probably get you the best results, providing your pricepoint is realistic.

[Tonyfinch]

That's what I said. Ask for advice. Just DON'T WORRY

[Bux]

Tony, I'm afraid many of my countrymen fear getting ripped off when they don't have sufficient information to be a wary consumer in any market. This fear is well founded, but I have to say there's probably less reason to have fear in France than in the US. As Steve Suggests, you will probably do better placing yourself in the hands of the sommelier than making your own decsion with limited knowledge as long as you are dealing with a restaurant and sommelier who take pride in their work. The chance of running into a restaurant where pride holds it's own along with an interest in making a profit, are still far greater in France than here.

It is important to let the sommelier know your price range. A perusal of the wine list will let you know if your preconception of that range is reasonable. I have from time to time been surprised to find wines far less expensive than I expected and at others, rather shocked to see the entrance point.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The real issue comes down to being that if you don't know anything about wine, how would you know if what the sommelier/waiter chooses is good or bad? To most neophytes, most wines taste the same. But what people are really afraid of is being ripped off. Being sold a relatively expensive bottle of wine that is junk. That's why the best you can do is to stick to a realistic pricepoint and hope the establishment is honest.

[hollywood]

The real issue comes down to being that if you don't know anything about wine, how would you know if what the sommelier/waiter chooses is good or bad? To most neophytes, most wines taste the same. But what people are really afraid of is being ripped off. Being sold a relatively expensive bottle of wine that is junk. That's why the best you can do is to stick to a realistic pricepoint and hope the establishment is honest.

These are non issues at Taillevent. And they speak excellent English should you find yourself tongue tied.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well it's a non-issue because they don't have any bad wines on their list to begin with. This isn't always the case at other places.

[hollywood]

Well it's a non-issue because they don't have any bad wines on their list to begin with. This isn't always the case at other places.

The great thing about a place like Taillevent is that it can come up with a reasonably priced excellent wine you've never heard of. The aggravating thing is you'll never be able to find the wine stateside. But they do have a cave and sell their wines.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The great thing about a place like Taillevent is that it can come up with a reasonably priced excellent wine you've never heard of. The aggravating thing is you'll never be able to find the wine stateside. But they do have a cave and sell their wines.

Well it is possible you never heard of it but I doubt it can't be found stateside. Next time this happens to you send me a PM and I will hook you up. In my experience, the vast majority of French wines that are worth anything are imported into the U.S.

[marcus]

Steve, how about Bellet. I could use a pointer there.

[mrsqft]

Most wine cartes in France are very big and overwhelming,at least to me. I usually decide what I am eating and just ask ,for example, for something interesting in a 60 euro range in a red. I find it a point of personal pride for them to show the Americans what they can do. I rarely have had a problem. They will also educate you on where it is from and why they like it if you ask. I have learned most of my wine knowledge that way.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Oh gee Bellet is a tough one. One of the producers who does work with me used to summer in St. Jean Cap Ferrat when he was younger and he has fond memories of drinking Bellet. About 4 years ago he asked me to find him some and I tried but I couldn't. But recently somebody mentioned to me that there was a source in this country. But I am not remembering who that was. Hmmm. I will put on my thinking cap. When I had lunch at The Fat Duck in September, the sommelier, who was someone who grew up not far from Bandol, was raving about a particular Bellet, the producer of which I do not remember either. But let me do a little research and post on it. Anyway, the odds of finding Bellet on a wine list in Paris are are better then they are in NYC, but still pretty slim.

Edited February 15, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Jonathan Day]

From the Fat Duck website:

Bellet 1998 Domaine de la Source J. Dalmasso 45.00

M. Dalmasso is very friendly and we have bought cases at the property; also at Bellet producers Domaine du Fogolar (M. Spizzo, an Italian lit-crit professor turned winemaker) and Collet de Roustan (M. Blanc-Gonnet). I've seen Bellet wines in Paris and London (e.g. ch de Crémat, or ch de Bellet) but not in the US.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Even Winesearcher.com isn't helpful. They have 7-8 entires but they are all in France or Switzerland. I need to ask importer friends of mine or people who are into drinking esoteric white wines if they know who imports Bellet into the U.S.

[Tonyfinch]

Tony, I'm afraid many of my countrymen fear getting ripped off when they don't have sufficient information to be a wary consumer in any market.

Bux, I'm not sure it so much a fear of getting ripped off as a worry about looking gauche or or naive. Of being looked down upon.

And its not only Americans who worry about that. The British do too. I've posted before about how Pierre Koffman ex of La Tante Claire here in London offered all of the workmen refurbishing the restaurant along with their wives a free dinner one eveningto celebrate finishing the work They all declined on the grounds that they would feel uncomfortable and out of place in a "fancy" French restaurant. Koffman muses on the fact that that would never have happened in France where they would all have jumped at the chance for a free meal in such an esteemed restaurant.

I think its a shame that people feel that way and it does lead you to wonder whether restaurants of this calibre could/should do more to make people who may feel self-conscious feel more at ease or whether creating an air of superiority is all part of the schtik.

Edited February 16, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Bux]

I suspect there are three factors that may come into play depending on the individual and I imagine there are some national attitudes that give different weight to the various factors. Fear of getting ripped off is a universal concern, and generally heightened in a strange or alien environment. Appearing gauche is also universal but some (groups of?) people seem to have less self confidence than others and some just don't give a damn who they offend. I've noticed we have both types over here in America and I've seen both traveling in Europe. Neither type are particularly charming but the former is inoffensive. Then there's the class thing that's propably far more pronounced in the UK than the US. Or perhaps it appears here more subtley in disguises. I've not attended many pre-opening dinners in new restaurants, but I recall dining in one at the invitation of some staffers. While the room was composed mostly of friends of the restaurant, which included culinary professionals of various stripes, I also learned that there were various diners who might never have the interest to dine in the new restaurant, but who jumped at the chance to try it for free. That might have included clerical staff such as the bookkeeper's assistant, for example. On the other hand, I have college educated professional friends (no, I don't have to buy my friends ) who are intimidated by the luxury level French restaurants.

[grahamtigg]

Clearly Paris and the north of France aren't wine growing areas, but just about anywhere else in France has a local, or at least nearby adopted, wine. If you don't know what you want, try this. If nothing else it's an education about the region you're in.

On the subject of house wines then if these are no good, or at least poor value, then the restaurant is failing in a major way. Of course don't expect house wines to be more than simple, well made young wines that drink well. Invariably house wines will be "local" (excepting the north).