Montreal Smoked Meat, II

[VivreManger]

One important note to be assumed in all my discussion of smoked meat -- this one added later through the edit function. We are talking about old-fashioned smoked meat, the other stuff looks like a naked chicken and does not pass mustard, pardon the pun.

This continues a thread which I spun off Katz's Pastrami in the NY forum, then into the Canada-Montreal forum -- suggestions on where to get the best smoked meat in Montreal. Now I have some suggestions on how to prepare it at home.

In the Montreal forum I lamented the decline of individual artisanal smoked meat making in Montreal. However I suggested that since the quality of the sandwich ultimately depends on the counter-man and steaming, the consequences are still remediable. There is also a silver-lining. The Levitt's cryovaced Canadian-inspected whole brisket is a perfectly legal immigrant to the US, even in these days of Ashcan-Ridge paranoia. If you are at all squeamish about bringing meat into the US, have no fear, NAFTA has come to the rescue.

Smoked meat is also available in small sandwich sized plastic packages, don't go there. My suggestion is that you invest in a whole brisket, about 6 to 7 pounds. It will cost you around $10 Canadian per pound, but even if I got the price wrong it is till a steal for the US dollar shopper. If you buy it from the deli -- at least this is the practice at Snowdon Del -- they will mark on the outer package the angle at which the meat should be sliced. Basically it should be cut on the bias, parallel to a line that connects the most distant two points on an oddly shaped rectangle.

Most of us are not capable of finishing off seven pounds of smoked meat at single sitting. My suggestion is to cut it up into more managable chunks, keeping in mind the proper cutting angle. I like a combination of fat and lean in my sandwich so I combine the appropriate chunks together in the zip-locked freezer bag. Properly sealed and stored it will easily keep for six months.

A few months ago I organized a smoked meat party for four hearty carnivores. None were Montrealers. Two had studied at McGill, but one was originally from Ottawa and the other was from Brooklyn. The third is a New Yorker and I am from New England, but I visit Montreal regularly. The New Yorker had never had Montreal smoked meat before. The rest of us are veterans. We made french fries in a fryolator -- excellent grease and salt but we forgot the Malt Vinegar. We did not have the small seedless rye bread favored by Montreal delis, but we came up with slightly chewier alternatives. The normal Montreal mustard is French's yellow, but Hebrew National deli is acceptable. None of us feinschmeckers would allow French's into the kitchen. We did get some Canadian Bubbie's Pickles, but still not as good as Mrs. Whytes Garlic or even Lieber's (sp?) whole sours. We did not have good sour vinegar cold slaw and none of us took the trouble to make the classic dish, Rumanian smoked eggplant salad. So much for the garnishes.

Now to the meat. The following are the keys to enjoyment. You need a very good sharp knife that can produce the thin slices, that are essential for dealing with what is basically a tough meat. Smoked Meat is not melt on your fingers brisket, it is a much sturdier stock. After what it has been through, brining, pickling, boiling, smoking -- who knows what else -- it is not a mellow customer. So it must be sliced thin to be eaten easily. The tougher lean slices must be mixed with the softer fatty slices to achieve the proper chewable combination of textures.

After you have slowly defrosted the chunks of lean, medium, and fatty meat, you must prepare a court bouillion for steaming and near-boiling the meat. I add quite a bit to the liquid in order to achieve an even fuller range of tastes than is common to the deli-counter experience. I never measure anything, but work on scent and smell. You need the following whole coriander seed, whole pepper corn, ground ginger, ground coriander, whole bay leaf, allspice, cloves, cardamon pods one whole red chili pepper and a bit of bovril beef bouillion. Through in the following to the water and bring it to a boil: about two to three TS of coriander seed, a TS of pepper corns, a pinch of ginger powder, one TS of coriander powder, three bay leafs a couple of cloves and a couple of cardamon pods, one whole red pepper, a pinch of allspice and a small teaspoon of beef bouillion. The size of the sauce pan is determined by how much meat you are serving, but you need something that you can cover and let simmer slowly. After the spicy liquid has come to a boil for a few minutes, reduced the heat and let the meat simmer. It should take about ten to fifteen minutes to reach the right temperature. The aroma should start to tell you its ready.

Slice thin and serve.

By the way my unbiased collection of carnivores were content. The semi-Montrealers felt that they were back on the Main. The New Yorker liked it better than pastrami and corned beef.

Edited January 5, 2003 by VivreManger (log)

[SteveW]

VivreManger(or anybody else), want your opinion about something. Could a established Montreal smoked meat operation like Schwartz's, open a NYC location & be very successful? Or if St. Viateur bagel tried to open in NYC, making their Montreal bagels. Could they be very successful there? Would they have a problem with NYC regulators, installing a wood burning oven for the bagels? I'm going on a premise, that both would be run professionally, & hands on involvement by the current Montreal owners. Just about every tourist all over, that comes to Montreal, wants to try our Montreal smoked meat & Montreal bagels. I think they could be very successful in NYC. This would negate to go through all this effort, culminating with preparing it at home(as you describe here), for the Americans living in or near NYC. Just a thought.

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Steve

Edited January 5, 2003 by SteveW (log)

[porkpa]

Steve,

Milos opened a very successful New York operation, while Moishes failed in Toronto. I would guess that HANDS ON ownership is the major key to success.

Of course if the environmental laws in NYC forbad a wood burning oven, then one of the necessary ingredients for a successful Montreal bagel would be eliminated and the chances of the venture's success would be significantly compromised.

If I were a principal in either venture, my first inclination would be to expand in the direction of Toronto rather than NYC because there is a significant population of ex Montrealers there almost guanteeing a receptive audience. This was actually done by the daughter of one of the principals of Snowdon Deli. She opened Centre Street Deli a very successful smoked meat establishment in a suburb of Toronto. Of course Moishes failed using the same strategy.

Porkpa

[VivreManger]

Pardon the multiple typos in my original post. One misleading statement in the recipe mifht be read to suggest the liquid should be sufficient to cover the meat. What I meant to say is that the cooking broth should go up about 1/4 of the height of the meat in the sauce pan. What you need to cover is the pan, not the meat.

As far as Montreal expansion goes, I think that the major Montreal migration to Toronto took place in the aftermath of of the first PQ victories in the 70s -- that is the politival victories of the separatist Parti Quebecois. Most of the Anglos who were going to leave, left then. The subsequent anglo hemorraging has been minor, by comparison. Subsequnetly some smart food-purveyers followed a market. By now those who were going to succeed have succeeded, so further expansion into Toronto makes little sense.

New York is an opportunity, but I would start with smoked meat, it would be an easier product to market and would NOT have the wood-burning zoning problems. Montreal bagels may be too much of a culture shock for New Yorkers since most of them would consider the product a soft pretzel. If the bagel option were tried, I would set up the bakery just outside of New York City, where the oven regulations are more forgiving and then ship the product into a city store-front. True they would not exactly be hot out of the oven, but a quick well insulated shipping system could keep them close enough and the marketing ploy would be Montreal bagels banned in New York City -- too hot to handle.

When one of you does it, I don't want a cut, just guarantee me a life-time supply whenever I show up.

By the way, as far as I am concerned any discussion of smoked meat, means the spicier old fashioned kind. The other stuff should be banned.

Edited January 5, 2003 by VivreManger (log)

[porkpa]

Vivre,

Its been done successfully in Toronto with smoked meat at Centre Street Deli.

I don't know if its been tried there with a true Montreal bagel - a la St Viateur or Fairmount. I doubt that it has. There is an outfit in Toronto called St Urbain Bagel that sells what it purports to be a Montreal style bagel. What they sell is somewhat better than the Toronto norm(which tastes like regular bread), but a long way from the true St Viateur/Fairmount product.

If I was a lot younger and had the personnel I'd give it a shot. In my opinion it can't miss, even if it got only the Torontonians and their friends and families who stop off to pick some up on their way home or who ask family and friends to send or bring them from Montreal.

Porkpa

[Suzanne F]

I have very fond memories of Montreal bagels and of smoked meat, neither of which I've had in many, many years. I would definitely try a place here in NYC that carried one or both (hope that's not a sacrilegious suggestion ). Whether or not such as place would succeed depends on many factors. The quality and taste matter most (to me, if not to everyone), but the "exotic" nature might help. (Montreal is much more exotic than, say, Boston: Bildner's was a bust.)

[guajolote]

I've never had this but it sounds great.

I have a question - where does the smoked part come in? Did you buy the brisket already smoked or just skip a step in your directions.

By the way, USDA Prime brisket at my butcher is $3.95 a lb.

[SteveW]

I've never had this but it sounds great.

I have a question - where does the smoked part come in? Did you buy the brisket already smoked or just skip a step in your directions.

By the way, USDA Prime brisket at my butcher is $3.95 a lb.

When we're talking about the authentic stuff. It's a very similiar product to NY Pastrami. Although many Montrealers, claim that Montreal smoked meat is different & so much better than NY pastrami. The only differences between the two, is the slightly different spicing, & the briskets might be from a slightly different section.

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Steve

[maggiethecat]

Schwartz's was the scene of many a student meal for me. God, that smoked meat was good! The flavour. The crispy edges. The large selection of canned fruit nectars.

Service? Well, grumpy.

Ben's used to have a sign that proclaims that there Everybody was a Somebody.

My sister-in-law observed that at Schwartz's the sign should read: Where Everybody is a Nobody.

Sorry. Just a little nostalgia from an ex Montreal girl.

[SteveW]

Vivre,

Its been done successfully in Toronto with smoked meat at Centre Street Deli.

I don't know if its been tried there with a true Montreal bagel - a la St Viateur or Fairmount. I doubt that it has. There is an outfit in Toronto called St Urbain Bagel that sells what it purports to be a Montreal style bagel. What they sell is somewhat better than the Toronto norm(which tastes like regular bread), but a long way from the true St Viateur/Fairmount product.

If I was a lot younger and had the personnel I'd give it a shot. In my opinion it can't miss, even if it got only the Torontonians and their friends and families who stop off to pick some up on their way home or who ask family and friends to send or bring them from Montreal.

Porkpa

I want to check out Centle Street Deli, the next time I'm in Toronto. Where in the suburbs is this deli? Moises Toronto, only lasted about a year. What happened I don't know. Going the other way. Several years ago, a new bagel establishment in Montreal, tried making & selling NY bagels. It only lasted one year.

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Steve

[porkpa]

Steve,

Its in a suburb of Toronto called Thornhill. Its northwest of downtown Toronto. Actually quite a schlep northwest. You take highway 401 west to the Allen(St or Rd I'm not sure) north exit. Take Allen Rd north for a few miles(I'm guessing 2-4 miles) to Centre St. Make a right at Centre St and go for about 1/2 a mile. Centre Street Deli is in a strip mall on the left. Its a little removed from the street, so you could miss it. I'm pretty sure they have a website, so you could possibly get more accurate directions from it.

Porkpa

[Degustation]

I agree with Porkpa that Centre Street Deli is pretty good. I haven't been in awhile but I have heard grumblings from Jewish friends that they have strayed from the thick slices that they originally started with because the demand is for leaner, thinner slices (gasp!).

Below is also a link to the results of a poll on TO's best smoked meat. I'm a bit leary of Dipamo's being number one though their BBQ stuff is quite good. Pancer's is not bad. Did anyone try the others?

Centre Street Deli

Best smoked meat in TO?

[Fat Guy]

It's hard enough to find an audience in New York City for real New York pastrami and real New York bagels. All but a handful of the old Jewish delis have gone out of business, and only one major new one (Artie's) has opened in recent memory (although a couple of others have opened additional branches). Likewise, the bagel trend here has long been towards a fluffier supermarket-style bagel -- it's difficult to find a nice dense old-style one. So I'm not sure why a sane businessperson would try to come here and sell Montreal smoked meat or Montreal bagels. In addition, Montreal smoked meat is redundant with pastrami -- they are essentially the same thing -- so I'm not sure why anybody who currently goes to the good pastrami places would bother defecting. And Montreal bagels are not really to most New Yorkers' tastes. The food media would probably like them but most people would try one and not get it.

And Vivre, thanks for introducing the subject of how to prepare this stuff for home service. I think many people aren't aware that you shouldn't just take it out of the package and slice it. The role of proper steaming and slicing is vastly underestimated.

[SteveW]

It's hard enough to find an audience in New York City for real New York pastrami and real New York bagels. All but a handful of the old Jewish delis have gone out of business, and only one major new one (Artie's) has opened in recent memory (although a couple of others have opened additional branches). Likewise, the bagel trend here has long been towards a fluffier supermarket-style bagel -- it's difficult to find a nice dense old-style one. So I'm not sure why a sane businessperson would try to come here and sell Montreal smoked meat or Montreal bagels. In addition, Montreal smoked meat is redundant with pastrami -- they are essentially the same thing -- so I'm not sure why anybody who currently goes to the good pastrami places would bother defecting. And Montreal bagels are not really to most New Yorkers' tastes. The food media would probably like them but most people would try one and not get it.

And Vivre, thanks for introducing the subject of how to prepare this stuff for home service. I think many people aren't aware that you shouldn't just take it out of the package and slice it. The role of proper steaming and slicing is vastly underestimated.

Interesting points made. Is it still expected at the major Old Jewish Delis in NYC, to be given bad service? Maybe that would explain the lack of audience in many of these establishments(resulting in some going under). Artie's might be changing things with much better service(educated guess). In Montreal, some of the worst service in eating establishments I've witnessed have been at the smoked meat delis(namely Schwartz's & Ben's). People expect to get bad service at Schwartz's. The Schwartz's supporters often turn things around, by saying getting insulted by the Schwartz's staff is part of its appeal. That's bull shit, in my eyes.

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Steve

[SteveW]

I agree with Porkpa that Centre Street Deli is pretty good. I haven't been in awhile but I have heard grumblings from Jewish friends that they have strayed from the thick slices that they originally started with because the demand is for leaner, thinner slices (gasp!).

Below is also a link to the results of a poll on TO's best smoked meat. I'm a bit leary of Dipamo's being number one though their BBQ stuff is quite good. Pancer's is not bad. Did anyone try the others?

Centre Street Deli

Best smoked meat in TO?

From checking the links, Centre Street Deli has bagels. Does it have Montreal bagels or what? What you say, about their customers demanding leaner smoked meat, is no doubt true. Unfortunately here in Montreal, most customers prefer lean smoked meat. To such an extent, that many of the Montreal smoked meat places have to throw away parts of the fattier portions(the good section) of their smoked meat, because so so many order lean smoked meat.

In the Best of TO list, Reuben's is #7 on the list. Is this the same deli, that was originally called Reuben Schwartz's when it opened around 3 years ago. They tried to copy Schwartz's Deli(Montreal) in every way, including the exact same menu, & claiming to use the same Schwartz's smoked meat recipe. And BTW, Reuben Schwartz is the name of the original founder of Schwartz's in Montreal. Eventually Reuben Schwartz's changed their name, after Schwartz's went after them.

#9 listed in the Best of TO smoked meat, is interesting enough named Katz's Deli & Corned Beef Emporium. Any connection to Katz's Deli in NYC? I'm guessing no, but you never know for certain.

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Steve

[Fat Guy]

Is it still expected at the major Old Jewish Delis in NYC, to be given bad service?

I'm not sure I'd characterize the expected service model as "bad." It's more a question of schtick. A great old New York Jewish deli waiter (or counterman) is quite skilled and performs all the technical aspects of service admirably, all the while delivering gentle insults and laying down a Borscht Belt comedy routine.

[col klink]

Smoked Meat is not melt on your fingers brisket, it is a much sturdier stock. After what it has been through, brining, pickling, boiling, smoking -- who knows what else -- it is not a mellow customer. So it must be sliced thin to be eaten easily. The tougher lean slices must be mixed with the softer fatty slices to achieve the proper chewable combination of textures.

So they pull it off of the smoker early? Given enough time on the smoker, brisket can be just as tender and juicy as prime rib. I'm guessing this is a local preference for corned beef brisket.