Dangerous driving

[jaybee]

A story on BBC World today told of the death of five firefighters who were run into on the highway while putting out a car fire. The driver was drunk and going 150 KPH. Chirac made a statement on national TV yesterday that the death rate on France's roads (8,000 a year) caused by excessive speed and drinking was a national crisis. The story went on to describe the kind of death defying driving habits of the French as told by a French journalist. He contrasted their kill rate to the UK, which was 1/2 that.

[menton1]

France actually has a lower accident rate than the US-- They are right in the middle of the statistics for European countries-- The real hot spots are Portugal and Greece, much worse than France. UK is very low, maybe because they have isolated themselves by driving on the left. Here is a link to the official statistics:

http://www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen/irtad...nglish/we2.html

[g.johnson]

France actually has a lower accident rate than the US--  They are right in the middle of the statistics for European countries--  The real hot spots are Portugal and Greece, much worse than France.  UK is very low, maybe because they have isolated themselves by driving on the left.  Here is a link to the official statistics:

http://www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen/irtad...nglish/we2.html

When you take into account distance travelled, everywhere comes out much closer* and France is higher than the US.

*With the exception of Turkey which must be a typo.

[jaybee]

Death on Wheels in France

[hollywood]

All this talk of fast driving made me think of tires (tyres to some of us).

http://www.pirellical.com/cal2003/mypirell...equestid=153054

[Tonyfinch]

Er....everyone in the UK drives on the left. Hence that should make no statistical difference.

Edited December 21, 2002 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Basildog]

and at least we have a sensible reason for doing so!

[Tonyfinch]

The French are in denial about many negative aspects of the role of alcohol in their society. Not surprising as a goodly proportion of its population makes a living from the production of alcoholic drinks.

Drinking all day long is still seen as "normale" in many parts of France and many in the wine industry distill ferociously strong eaux de vies for home consumption from its by-products.

The British plan their drinking a little more. They "go out for a drink" and in planning it they are more likely to leave the car at home or arrange for someone sober to drive. In rural areas some pubs lay on a minibus to drive customers home-unheard of in France.

[robert brown]

Around Nice, I see accidents with two-wheel vehicles all the time. If those kinds of means of transportation aren't in the stats, then truly France must be in a class by itself. What about the Italians? Wait until you drive on their autoroutes.

[Fat Guy]

My impression of drivers in Europe is that they are far more -- I'm trying to find the right word for this -- daring, aggressive, reckless, etc., than drivers in the UK and the United States (with the possible exceptions of Boston and Northern New Jersey). At the same time, I get a sense that European drivers are on average more competent in terms of their actual car-handling skills. Am I alone in having these impressions?

[Tonyfinch]

FG,yes. I'm always impressed/surprised at how slowly people drive in the US. You actually stick to the speed limits, something your average Frenchman/Italian/German feels duty bound to rebel against. Obeying rules does not square with their sense of machismo

Italians are very fast drivers but are also very good. The Germans are extremely aggressive.

[menton1]

Had to respond to the N. New Jersey slur even though we are in the France section. Moved here from NYC 20 years ago, and the drivers in NY are MUCH more reckless than in NJ. (Especially the taxis) That and the potholed roads in NY make for a most uncomfortable driving experience.

I also agree that in general the European drivers are more skilled than the Americans-- and the link in my previous reply shows official statistics that show that the French statistics are at the median of those countries, and the US has a higher accident rate. I also like the fact that in Europe the pedestrians obey the laws as well, whereas in the US, they step out into traffic daring you to hit them or screech on the brakes!! (Especially in NY City)

[g.johnson]

As I mentioned before, the US has a lower rate of fatalities per km travelled, which I think is the more meaningful statistic.

Another factor is that the roads in the US are much better (straighter, multilane) than in Europe though that is double edged since it allows faster driving.

[Fat Guy]

G: In my experience the local roads in the US tend to be better than in Europe but the big highways (like the French Autoroutes) in Europe kick the ass of our interstates.

M: Yes but if you look at who those reckless drivers in New York are, they all have New Jersey plates!

[g.johnson]

I wouldn't have said there was much difference, but that aside, I'd guess that a relatively small fraction of total traffic travels by French autoroutes relative to that which travels by the interstates.

[Rail Paul]

National Public Radio in the US had an article on this topic today. Focused on the testosterone factor in French drivers more than the alcohol. The ongoing problem with police and local officials killing violation reports was noted. Mentioned 70% of the drivers on some A routes exceed the posted limits, so the government is considering photo radar.

Concluded with the comment that government ministers will have to direct their chauffeurs to observe stop signs and follow speed limits

[Louisa Chu]

At the same time, I get a sense that European drivers are on average more competent in terms of their actual car-handling skills. Am I alone in having these impressions?

Maybe on a closed test road but not necessarily in real world traffic.

But how can you generalize about European drivers? Autobahn drivers are a completely different animal than Parisian drivers. On the Autobahn they will only pass you in the correct passing lane - even if the adjacent lane is completely free and it means screaming up behind you at 100mph and tailing you inches away. Whereas in Paris roundabouts even city bus drivers have to slam on their brakes because yet another stupid Renault has sharply cut in front expecting a multi-ton vehicle to stop on a dime.

As many incidents of road rage as I've experienced in Los Angeles - giving and receiving - I knew of very few serious accidents firsthand.

In France alone a friend of mine's husband was almost killed while driving last year in Provence. In Paris, another friend's colleague was hit while walking, broke vertabrae and will be on her back for two months; just yesterday I saw a woman nearly mowed down by a 4x4 backing up full speed down Bourdonnais - a big busy street; and while I was merging onto the quai a couple of weeks ago, had a psycho scooterist ride up next to me and bang on my window - apparently not knowing that my first LA instinct was to try to then smear him into the wall.

[Beachfan]

Nothing quite like the pleasure like driving like an a****le in Italy and feeling like a local.

[menton1]

Sounds similar to a New York City taxi cutting in front of you and missing your fender by 1 inch; Or honking you incessantly when you don't take off like a drag racer when the light changes. Seems to me I don't remember ever being honked anywhere in Europe! American testosterone is also at quite a high level. Also road rage crimes are unheard of in Europe!

[blackduff]

 Also road rage crimes are unheard of in Europe!

Road Rage is alive and well in the UK.

BlackDuff

[Bux]

From the article in question.

In 2000, France's 8,079 road fatalities topped the E.U. rankings — well ahead of the 7,503 in Germany, which has 33% more cars and 36% less road space.

This is by country without regard to population size. The relationship to the number of cars owned in one specific country is misleading as no mention is given as to how many in Germany own two or more cars and how many cars in France are used by more than one person during the day. There is a reference to "road space" without mention of width or length of roads. Greater width could provide more "space" and also make the highways safer, but even length is far less critical than the actual number of kilometers driven. No doubt road fatalities are a serious problem in every country with cars but it's obvious here that the author starts with a premise and then selects statistics to support his contention.

Everyone has their own truth in their head. Have a serious accident while on vacation and you'll return convinced the drivers are terrible. It isn't proof of any overall pattern. I don't think French drivers are "better" than American drivers. I do think they have greater control over their cars and a greater concentration on the road when they drive. They compensate for that (or is it the other way around) by exceeding their efforts to push the limits. If they don't obey the law, they do obey the rules of the road and that's trouble for tourists who don't know the local rules which may be different from those at home. The French are not, as a rule, cautious drivers and depend on the other driver to be as good as they are. That's very dangerous in a country that attracts so many tourists.

That the UK drives on the left may well have something to do with the rate of accidents in France. How often do you see a French car on the road in the UK or any car with continental (left side) steering. Not often, I'd guess. How often have I been stuck on a mountain road in France behind two or more puny cars pulling heavy caravans up a mountain road? In my mind that's about 40% of the time I'm in France, maybe higher in the summer. Alright, maybe that's an exaggeration, but it's sure as hell a contribution in the accident rate as well as the incidence of road rage.

[menton1]

Thanks, Bux, for some interesting sentiments.

I have only driven for one day in the UK; after many harrowing experiences, I turned the car in and will relegate myself to public transportation in the UK forever. I guess the autonomic reflexes are too ingrained to overcome.

I have, however, driven extensively in France and Italy and I do love it. The drivers there seem to concentrate a lot harder than we do here. And pedestrians rarely cross against the light or in the middle of the block. A lot of "rond-points" , or traffic circles (some beautifully landscaped) to ease merging onto other roads. If you drive at the speed limit on the autoroute in the left lane, they will get 2 feet behind you and flash you until you pull over. Most of the cars stay in the right lane except to pass.

The 2 countries where I do have some trepidation is Greece and Portugal. It seems every 50 yards there is a monument to someone who died in an accident at that spot. The highway statistics seem to bear out that these 2 countries are much worse than the rest of Europe. The roads in Greec seemed virtually empty, even in the late spring.

I agree with you, Bux, that this is a very subjective idea-- every place will seem safe unless you have personally had an accident there--

[Bux]

I have only driven for one day in the UK

You've never lived, or at least been thankful enough that you're still alive until you've come to the top of a hill on a seemingly deserted road in rural Japan, only to find yourself on the wrong side of the road, with the wrong reflexes, face to face with a local car. Fortunately we were both going very slowly.

I don't recommend driving in Japan, but it made for two very interesting trips and we went places and saw things we might not have seen otherwise. Although it took great concentration and a full time co-pilot/navigator to make sure every turn was made through an arc in the correct lanes, We were glad we did it. I don't recommend it to others.

[Geepsie]

I asked my husband's Parisian cousin about the French Paradox. He tilted his head, let out that sardonic Parisian snigger, and noted that the only French Paradox is how many people actually DON'T get killed in motor vehicle accidents. He didn't think the Paradoxers' research had a statistically significant number of people to work with. Folks died on the highways en masse, therefore nobody got old enough to have developed coronary disease.

Geepsie

[menton1]

You've never lived, or at least been thankful enough that you're still alive until you've come to the top of a hill on a seemingly deserted road in rural Japan, only to find yourself on the wrong side of the road, with the wrong reflexes, face to face with a local car. Fortunately we were both going very slowly.

Something very similar happened to me in England when I made a left turn out of a parking lot into the RIGHT lane!! (Those ingrained reflexes again). But even as a pedestrian crossing the street can be dangerous in London-- you never look in the correct direction to see if there are cars coming!