Overworked sourdough (I think)

[piracer]

So i tried making this Laura Hart's sourdough recipe which involves making a starter dough with a 1:1 ratio of 'strong' plain flour and water. Im not sure what she meant by strong so i just used half and half of bread flour and AP. Now i basically messed some part up involving me putting the starter inside the oven set onto warm and it warping the plastic container i placed it in accidentally (stupid i know, i didnt even need to put it inside the oven i dont know why i did that), so i tried scooping out what i could but now the ratio of flour to water had been messed up. I tried adjusting it by feeding it with another 1:1 ratio of flour and water and waited to see what would happen.

Anyway i carried on with the recipe but in half and forgot to half the amount of salt put in also. The dough i felt didn't really rise during the supposedly rising process but i carried on and also did the whole kneading thing. OK so i FEEL like i might have overworked my dough (i just kept on kneading it every now and then hoping something would happen)and its been sitting there for the last 24 hrs or so.

I decided to cut a chunk off to make a mini-roll of sort, baking it at the same temp (less time) and the results was what i was expecting: heavy tough bread. It had some holes in it so im guessing part of it did rise but so im wondering whether:

1.) Did i over work it?

2.) My amount of flour + water to starter was way off (not enough starter)

3.) too much salt (but i think thats for flavor)

Ideas? Also anyone have any suggestions on what to do with over worked sour dough? I tried kneading it down to make a sorta pizza thing but again, its just tough dough which didnt do to well to rolling out thin. If not i was thinking just bake it off and turn it into bread crumbs

[Lisa Shock]

Sounds like you killed the yeast with too much heat in the oven or through some other incident with the starter. Or, your rising area is super-cold.

It's really hard to overknead dough by hand to the point where a long relax won't mend the situation. I really think there's a problem with the yeast.

[Broken English]

I've baked a bit of sourdough in the on-site bakery of the restaurant I used to work in.

I find that slowing the proving process by doing it all in the fridge after each stage (dough, then the individual loaves helps get a lighter texture with more air bubbles, and the process of folding the dough is also critical to the lightness.

My preferred sourdough recipe now doesn't use an ongoing starter that needs to be fed, it just gets made the day before and sits in the fridge, then added to the main dough, which then goes back into the fridge,before being folded, portioned, then folded and shaped again, before going back to the fridge. The longer it stays in the fridge between each stage the better for flavour and texture in my view, though one day is usually the most practical (and even then it turns the making process into a four day thing).

As for the original question, yes the dough may be overworked. If it feels firm (at least the recipes I've used, then it's not going to be much good (I've always worked with a soft, wet dough which is firmed and dried by the folding and shaping process. But recipes vary greatly, and I'm by no means an experienced baker, so it could be fine, you can only try it out.

Good luck with it.

[350degrees]

several factors:

i think you killed it by putting it in that oven. if it's hot enough to warp plastic, it seems like it's too hot for the starter to do it's magic.

if that's not it, then you might have overproofed with the 24 hours. i'm not familiar with the recipe, but 24 hours in singaporean weather seems like it might make the little guys reproduce too fast. if you find that you overproofed the dough, it should go immediately into the oven, letting it sit out won't help any, and just extends the lifecycle of the starter.

or, maybe you didn't have enough starter as you mentioned at the beginning.

and i think the "strong" flour refers to a high gluten flour. like a bread flour, or a winter wheat.

Edited October 11, 2011 by 350degrees (log)

[Isabelle Prescott]

How many days did you let the starter sit before trying to use it to make bread? Did it get bubbly and did you feed it regularly before trying to use a portion of it to make your dough? If you put the starter an the oven that was hot enough to melt plastic it almost certainly killed any chance of it rising.

I've been baking sourdough bread for many years. Getting the starter too hot will kill it, just at getting yeast too hot will kill it. I've never been able to recover a dough that won't rise properly for whatever reason and I've tried mightly. It will stay like a brick when you bake it even after 3 or 4 days of trying to get it to rise. Best thing is to throw it out and begin anew.

Don't be discouraged. Once you've made a successful loaf of sourdough, you won't believe how easy it is.

Good luck.

[350degrees]

Don't be discouraged. Once you've made a successful loaf of sourdough, you won't believe how easy it is.

and delicious!

[piracer]

Thanks for the comments so far!

So i'm actually not in singapore (status needs an update) but am in eastern Washington State. Its getting cold so its not the heat but i guess all the other comments are right - heat killed the yeast. The thing is that before i made the dough the starter itself had bubbles and smelled sour which made me think it was ok. The starter was also sitting out for about 4 days. But it looks like i need to start over.

And not put plastic in the oven

But no suggestions for what to do with the dough?

[350degrees]

if it smells too sour before using it, it means the starter has matured. as per the tartine bread book (fantastic book, btw), you want to make sure the starter smells sweet and a little pungent like ever-so-slightly rotten fruit and not pungent like sour vinegar; additionally, you want to see it float in water before you use it.

what i might recommend is that you take some of the dough and use that as a new starter. seeing as how you've added more flour and water to it, it should be a ripe, young starter which you could make a new batch from, given that it isn't completely dead from the heat.

i imagine you should still be able to use the leftover dough for uses where you don't need a lot of air and rise in the final product - maybe a pizza, or some flatbread.

Edited October 11, 2011 by 350degrees (log)

[HungryC]

If the starter was only 4 days old, then it was likely far too weak to raise a loaf of bread. Just because a starter is bubbly doesn't mean it has a sufficient yeast population to raise bread. I'd keep feeding that starter daily for at least two weeks before trying again. In my experience, the initial bubbling within 2-4 days is NOT yeast, but leuconostoc or other bacteria that mimic yeast's bubbling. When the starter reliably doubles in size within 4-6 hours after feeding, you know it's sufficiently active to raise a loaf of bread.

[piracer]

So when it comes to feeding my starter, can i just add small amounts of my dough into it? Do i need to add any water, or put it this way, what should the starter look like? Right now its kinda pasty, i dont think its too watery. The dough i have feels quite wet so i feel like i dont need to add water. Then again, if i just add chunks of dough into the bowl, will it eventually break down or does it need some extra force be it physical or chemical?

thanks

[Isabelle Prescott]

So when it comes to feeding my starter, can i just add small amounts of my dough into it? Do i need to add any water, or put it this way, what should the starter look like? Right now its kinda pasty, i dont think its too watery.

My starter has the consistancy of pancake batter. I feed it with 1 cup of flour mixed into 1 cup of bottled water. Since I bake bread at least once a week, I take out 1 cup of the starter as the leaveneing for my bread and replace it with the flour/water mixture. I created my original batch of starter using the Nancy Silverton of La Brea Bakery method which consists of flour, water and organic grapes. It took at least 3-4 weeks for it to be strong enough to be used to bake bread. (I fed it about once every 5 days during that time.) I tried sooner and each time the loaves didn't rise enough. I was getting discouraged but persistance paid off. I have been baking with this starter for about 3 or 4 years, maybe longer.

There are pictures of some of my breads on my blog. Some are sourdough and some are other types of bread.

[HungryC]

So when it comes to feeding my starter, can i just add small amounts of my dough into it? Do i need to add any water, or put it this way, what should the starter look like? Right now its kinda pasty, i dont think its too watery. The dough i have feels quite wet so i feel like i dont need to add water. Then again, if i just add chunks of dough into the bowl, will it eventually break down or does it need some extra force be it physical or chemical?

thanks

No, don't add dough. Add flour and water; stir to ensure all of the flour is hydrated, then leave it at room temperature for 24 hours. Discard a portion of it, and feed it (just flour and wter) again. Keep it on a daily feeding schedule until it will reliably double at room temperature in 4-8 hours. Wiping down the sides of the container each time you discard/feed will allow you to "see" that it has doubled...you can feed it bread flour, all purpose flour, or even whole wheat or rye (or a mixture, if that's what you like).

Once it is reliably doubling, you can reduce the feeding schedule, provided that you refrigerate the starter. I keep my 100% hydration starter in the fridge, and I feed it two or three times before I plan to bake. It survives happily for weeks without feeding. I have neglected it for as long as 3 months (I was able to revive it) and I inadvertently gave most of it away a few weeks ago. I had just smears of it left clinging to the container, but I fed it anyway and the culture was still around. After 2 feedings, it was a big happy bowlful again.

When feeding it, try to feed it equal parts by weight of flour and water (which makes it 100% hydration). Various recipes call for starters of varying hydrations, and converting it to the percentage you need is simple if you start with 100% hydration starter.