A theory of whetstones

[ChrisTaylor]

I've just upgraded from a Global 20cm cook's knife to a Wusthoff-Trident of the same length. When I bought the Global years ago I was recommended the Minosharp Global sharpener. And it's ... not very good. I don't want to fuck up my new knife with it. And so I'm looking at whetstones. So ...

* The brand doesn't matter as such, right? A Global-branded whetstone is okay with a Wusthoff knife, right?

* Are edge guides worthwhile? Granted, the only edge guides I've seen avaliable locally are for Globals--which, iirc, have a different blade angle to Wusthoffs.

* Are systems like the Furi Edge Tech good? Better than a whetstone?

[DickL]

If you're skillful, you can get a pretty good edge with a stone. I kept our knives acceptably sharp for many years with a stone and a steel. But it's hard to get a precise angle freehand, and there's always the possibility of getting a finger in the way if you're not careful.

There are a couple of stone sets with angle guides on the market that make getting a consistent angle fairly easy, and produce good edges. I've got a "GATCO Edgemate Professional Knife Sharpening System" kit, which is a somewhat less expensive alternative to the similar Lansky products. They have several stones that work with a clamp for the blade and a reversible angle guide that lets you get the same angle on both sides of the blade. Several angles-- 29°, 25°, 22°, 19°, 15° and 11°-- are provided by the GATCO guide (at least the one I've got); I don't know what the Lansky does, but it's probably similar. Some Googling will turn up information on them, including some videos, which will make it clear how these systems work.

But there are many ways to get and keep a good edge on knives, and I wouldn't claim the GATCO kit is the best, only that it works well for me. I found a used set on eBay, so the price was even right.

[Foodietopo]

Any brand of whetstone will do, just go easy and your knife should be fine. I watched a lot of video on Youtube before using a whetstone for the first time and my knives are all fine. I am not the best, but it's a slow learning process.

I've also watched many pro in knife shop and I figured I could always bring my knife to them if I mess up an edge or something.

Have fun with your new knife.

[scubadoo97]

In the guide system the EdgePro stands above the rest. It's not cheap but you will get years of service from it. It's an investment but no so much more than a high end knife. You don't need to spend a lot of money to sharpen a knife but using a whetstone will take some practice. It's not rocket science but I would suggest you do some learning on a few cheap knives before laying your priced knife on the stone.

[vice]

Lot's of great info here:

Knife Maintenance and Sharpening (plus the Q&A)

Sharpening Systems

[BadRabbit]

I bought the Gatco recently and I really hate it. Moving the knife up and down and reclamping is a royal PITA. It also doesn't do well once you get towards the tip of the knife. To sharpen an 8 in chef's knife is at least an hour affair. I wish I'd just spent the money and bought the Edgepro.

[ChrisTaylor]

See I like the sound of the EdgePro but to get it shopped from overseas would be stupidly--and I mean stupidly--expensive. Sounds like it's a fairly big (heavy too?) case. I don't see anyone stocking it locally. And yeah, I looked up the Gatco and saw reviews that were all positive except for one very significant point: the clamping mechanism.

With whetstones should I be looking at fine, medium or coarse whetstones?

Edited December 27, 2010 by ChrisTaylor (log)

[budrichard]

My wetstones are just that, stones with a few synthetic stones thrown in. No gadgets except for as stone with handle that Takeda Hamano makes for his knives that is very ingenious.

You need a couple of stones with various grits depending on the sharpening job at hand. The courser stones are for bringing back a dull edge faster and then as you get finer in grit, the edge gets smoother and sharper. For a first stone, I would start with an artificial with two grits.

Read, practice and learn. you have to choose the oil method (usually for western knives) versus the water method (usually for Japanese blades). These days i prefer the water method more and more.

Most systems are designed to separate you from your money. Usually those stones labeled for thinner blades such as Global are finer than a stone for western knives. Wusthof makes a nice double sided stone that stores in a wood box that I use a lot but any good hardware store should have 'Norton' stones which are used in the machine shop environment.-Dick

[thock]

I have and read several times the Razor Edge Book of Sharpening, which I like immensely. It might be worth it to pick up a copy.

I use several different grits of stones, down to a super smooth ceramic stone. I use them all dry. When they become loaded, I scrub them down with water and Dawn, then let them dry.

I sharpen freehand, and I do it in front of the TV. I take my time doing it, and I enjoy it, so I don't care how long it takes. Other people might not like to spend a lot of time sharpening. I tend to really sharpen my most-used knives every 6-12 months, and touch up the edges as needed. When I do my 6-12 month maintenance, I examine ALL my knives and sharpen or touch up as needed. It usually takes me several hours to a day to do them all, but then I've got a LOT of knives.

My coarsest stone is a 6"-long tile dressing stone. I wish I had a softer, coarser stone, but that's life.

[ojisan]

See I like the sound of the EdgePro but to get it shopped from overseas would be stupidly--and I mean stupidly--expensive. Sounds like it's a fairly big (heavy too?) case. I don't see anyone stocking it locally.

ChefKnivesToGo carries several EdgePro Apex kits - ask them about shipping to Oz. The Apex is not large or heavy.

[lesliec]

Hi Chris.

An EdgePro was last year's Christmas present from wifey. I don't recall the numbers, but shipping to NZ wasn't too horrendous. Tha package is maybe 50-60 cm long by 10 by 10 and I'd be surprised if it weighs more than a kilo or so.

And, the important bit ... with practice - it works!

[Edward J]

Actually, I do more sharpening with my woodworking tools than I do with my knives.....

Sharpening is a slippery slope, it's never quite "perfect".

Two very basic things about sharpening in general:

1) The finer the abrasive you use, the longer your edge will last

2) Pay good attention to your bevel, improper or inconsistant bevels will lead to poor edges quickly.

Generaly, very generally, you need 3 grits. An 800-1000 course stone for basic shaping, a 2000-3000 for removing the scratches from the course stone, and a 5000+ stone for final polish. I go as far as 8,000 grit, and many go higher. There are many "combination" stones with coarse/medium or medium/fine combinations.

[nickrey]

I use Japanese sharpening stones that are an artificial composite designed to simulate sharpening on real stones.

I have three, one coarse (400), one fine (1000) and one very fine (3000). The 400 is used to recondition, the 1000 to sharpen, and the 3000 to polish. Most often I use the 1000 and 3000.

Not being sufficiently confident in my ability to maintain a correct angle throughout sharpening, I use a plastic guide that has silicon inserts to maintain the correct angle. This is a Japanese product and keeps the knives at the appropriate angle for these types of knives (see picture).

[Dakki]

+1 on EdgePro. It does take away some of the skill required to sharpen well freehand, but you'd still have to learn to identify a wire edge, remove burrs and so on. Once you have that down it becomes much simpler to learn your angles, hold the blade at a consistent angle to the stone and use a light touch, which are the skills required to sharpen freehand. Basically EdgePro removes the muscle memory stuff but you'll still have to learn the rest, which I think will be faster and simpler if you don't have to worry if you're holding the blade at 17 degrees instead of 15 or whatever.

I'm not a fan of combination stones. The "coarse" side is never fast enough and the "fine" side is never fine enough. That said they're much, much better than nothing and good to learn on, particularly if you had some cheese-soft supermarket knives to practice on.

I've used ceramic, diamond, India, Arkansas and Japanese stones and the Japanese are my favorite, followed by the diamond. All are perfectly adequate for the job and YMMV.

EDIT: Pretty knife, nickrey.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Dakki (log)

[ChrisTaylor]

http://www.kitchenwaredirect.com.au/Knives/Whetstone/Shun-Whetstone-6000-1000

Thoughts?

[Dakki]

I'm sure it's a fine stone (although you might be paying some extra for the brand) and 6000 is fine enough, but 1000 is not fast enough, IMHO.

[Foodietopo]

Can you find King whetstone in your area? This is what is available in most stores in Japan. The stones are pretty cheap and will do a great job. I was told at the Global store in Osaka that my King whetstone would pretty much do the same job as the super expensive Global stones.

[HKDave]

See I like the sound of the EdgePro but to get it shopped from overseas would be stupidly--and I mean stupidly--expensive. Sounds like it's a fairly big (heavy too?) case. I don't see anyone stocking it locally.

It's about $45 shipping for an EdgePro Apex kit from USA to Hong Kong (ordered direct from EP; may vary from distributors). I imagine Aus would be similar, but you may have to pay import duty.

If shipping is an issue, there's a similar - and in some ways better - home-grown Aussie sharpening system you might want to check out.

http://www.ezesharp.com.au/sharpener.html

Comparison of the two here:

http://www.proknifesharpeners.com/

[nickrey]

The quote Edge Pro gave me was around $45 for postage. I looked at the price and at the option of using stones, which can give an excellent result if used properly, and bought what you see above. An Edge Pro is another method of getting the angle right. It probably is a bit easier than using stones but I decided it would probably be too limiting.

I purchased the kit from Chef's Armoury in Sydney for $265 (link here), which is less than the Apex 4 kit plus postage.

I'm sure you can find cheaper if you look. For our North American brethren's information, we pay around twice as much as you or more for all kitchen equipment in Australia, very annoying but unfortunately a fact of life.

[ericthered]

I use a two-sided stone that I bought from Korin: http://korin.com/Togiharu-1000-4000-Two-Sided-Stone?sc=7&category=17374

It seemed relatively cheap at around $45. It has #1000 and #4000 sides. Korin also offers a #1000/#6000 version.

Mine works well on all of my knives, including everything from carbon steel to the latest ultra-hard alloys. It does take a bit of practice, so start with your cheap knives. Also buy a flattening stone to keep it flat.

[paulraphael]

With both the Globals and the German knives, the biggest challenge is deburring. Both types of steel a very "gummy" and tend to form tenacious burs. If you sharpen well down to a fine grit, it's possible (likely) that the burr will remain as a microscopic wire edge. This edge will be sharp but fragile; you'll find the initial sharpness of the edge deteriorating much faster than it would if you'd managed to get rid of the wire.

There are many ways to get rid of a wire edge, all with their advocates. And all take practice. I have a very hard felt pad that I strop the edge on after each successive stone. Also, after polishig on my finest stone, I make a couple of long strokes parallel to the blade, with very light pressure. Both of these techniques help, although I don't think I ever do a perfect job of getting rid of the wire (and my knives are made from steels that hang onto a wire edge less agressively than either global's or the german's steels).

Another trick is to draw the edge through a piece of soft, end-grain wood, or a wine cork, after each stone.

[HowardLi]

[Dakki]

Would anybody be horribly offended if I said taking a belt sander to a good knife is like cooking a nicely marbled ribeye in the microwave?

[ChrisTaylor]

HowardLi, you are a dangerous man.

I'm thinking of just getting a whetstone for the day-to-day touchups and getting the knife professionally done every 6 months or so. I can get it done for free or cheap at some of the big kitchenware/gourmet shops in Melbourne (which have pretty good reputations for that sort of thing).

[nickrey]

I'm thinking of just getting a whetstone for the day-to-day touchups and getting the knife professionally done every 6 months or so. I can get it done for free or cheap at some of the big kitchenware/gourmet shops in Melbourne (which have pretty good reputations for that sort of thing).

Be very careful on this one. I took some knives to a reputable kitchen shop once and the person who did it had no idea.

Ask to see their work and make sure that they are not shaving huge slabs of metal off.

Edited January 3, 2011 by nickrey (log)