Dean & Deluca

[Bux]

Bux - Thanks for telling us that you don't find it interesting to have a favorite oil and that you prefer to vary oils. Except Marty didn't say he didn't vary oils, only that he has a favorite one  . He might use his favorite oil only once a year and then use 364 different oils on the other days. But it's okay for him to have a favorite right?

We can decrease the animosity many find on these boards by taking the time to read and reread posts before assuming the worst interpretation. I didn't say Marty didn't vary his oils, all I said was that I don't have a favorite. Just as the members may be interested in knowing he has a favorite and in knowing what it is, I suspected some members might be interested in how I regard and use oils in my kitchen. I doubt that either Marty or I have an army of followers who will regard our habits and practices as the way of light. I suspect there are more than a few who will read this thread and find many points of view worth considering. I would certainly imagine more than a few users will be on the lookout for Castello di Volpaia olive oil from Tuscany. There's no need to put words in my mouth or spin my posts for others. I think my post was clear enough for most users to understand, but since you ask, he has my permission to have a favorite.

You are correct however, when you note that the time consuming as well as aggravating part of shopping in specialty stores is the waiting to be served. The wait in Di Palo's on a weekend afternoon is incredible and would be interminable if I didn't get a chance to get involved in a few conversations with Louis, Sal or one of the customers from time to time. That's another thing that reminds me of Europe when shopping there--the intensity of interest of some of the customers in the food they're buying and their desire to tell you how they cook and use the products.

[Fat Guy]

Isn't being allowed to have a favorite olive oil part of the Free Matt Seeber campaign?

[Wilfrid]

Dean and Deluca appears to have a massive staff, very few of whom spend their time serving customers. Kind of annoying that, even at busy times, they can have only one person on a counter.

[Jinmyo]

Just as the members may be interested in knowing he has a favorite and in knowing what it is, I suspected some members might be interested in how I regard and use oils in my kitchen.

You bet.

[Jinmyo]

Isn't being allowed to have a favorite olive oil part of the Free Matt Seeber campaign?

You bet.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - I was making a joke/giving you a hard time.

I suspected some members might be interested in how I regard and use oils in my kitchen.

You're wrong.

[Rail Paul]

I live a few blocks away from that Oliviers & Co. store.  I went in once or twice and sampled a few things.  My sense is Bux's chain-related fears about them are spot on, although they do get a lot of good press from Patricia Wells (not that that means anything).

I found it somewhat aggravating to find their outlets (and L'Occitaine too) on every other corner in Provence. 

La Locanda (B&B in Chianti)

M. Oliviers was the cook at the "home cooked" dinner for chefs Keller, Boulud, and Moonen a few weeks ago. Featured in the NY Times with two large pictures and 30 inches of text. Mentioned his product repeatedly

Sounds like the guy knows how to keep the public relations machine well-oiled.

[Bux]

Bux - I was making a joke/giving you a hard time.

Well give me credit for getting half of your message.

[Fat Guy]

I suspected some members might be interested in how I regard and use oils in my kitchen.

You're wrong.

Well I'd like to hear how he uses oils in his kitchen before deciding for sure that I'm not interested. Then again, I wouldn't want him to talk about anything too interesting that he does with oils in his kitchen. This is a family site, after all.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Maybe he could write about his bath oils? Or maybe which motor oil he uses? Whatever, as long as he doesn't tell us what his favorite oil is. If he tries to, you should immediately delete it.

[Fat Guy]

Does anybody have an oil sommelier yet? Surely that could be a good marketing gimmick.

[Wilfrid]

Of course, my serious question has been lost amidst all the rib-splitting drollery. If anyone's surprised I shop at Dean and Deluca, where should I be shopping downtown. Even on a Saturday. Jefferson Market? Or should I go to a separate supplier for each item on my list.

Assume my list includes fresh meat, charcuterie, cheese and bread, for the sake of argument.

[Liza]

I dare someone to recommend my handy nearby Food Emporium.

[Damian]

I obviously fell for M. Oliviers marketing hook line and sinker, then. I've walked by it about 100 times but never made it in (the three times i tried it was closed and the guy was counting up receipts on the register). I assumed it was exactly the kind of artisanal specialty shop that one is accustomed to finding and taking advantage of in NY. Little did I know that it was an artisanalish specialtylike chain masquerading as an artisanal specialty shop. My lack of knowledge was the reason for the tentative nature of my recommendation to Marty (i.e. might be worth stopping by if you're in the area).

As for shopping in NYC, the reason it is such a hassle is because there are so many people competing for the same limited quantity of goods and services, this phenomenon is hardly limited to food shopping. I find that shopping for almost anything in this city is a time-consuming hassle (as is going to the movies, getting reservations, etc.) . Great availability of products and services, great difficulty in obtaining them - one of the great love/hates about NYC for me.

[Double 0]

THe first thing I would say is to go early. It gives me a reason to get up on Sat. I don't think that you need recommendations, I may be wrong, you probably know every place south of 14th st. Go early!

[Damian]

Wilfrid,

stay at D&D and put the Brie de Meaux on your list

[g.johnson]

If anyone's surprised I shop at Dean and Deluca, where should I be shopping downtown.

Jefferson Market for meat and fish. Union Square greenmarket or Garden of Eden (14th Street) for vegetables. GoE for bread. We used to go to Balducci’s for charcuterie but now we go to GoE which is not great, but adequate. You can sometimes get reasonable cheese at both JM and GoE but it’s far from a certainty. That was why we went to D&D on Saturday (and the three recommended cheeses were very good, I thought).

[Wilfrid]

My question was prompted by earlier comments on the thread such as:

"I have a lot less of a clear understanding of why people downtown would shop at Dean and DeLuca -- I'm assuming there are a lot of tourists in there." (S. Shaw)

and

"I also don't understand why anyone thinks that D & D has a good reputation? " (S. Plotnicki)

I think I do have a pretty good idea what the downtown options are. And I would contend that D&D is better for cheese, charcuterie and bread than the 14th Street GoE. I haven't bought meat and fish from Jefferson Market, so can't make the comparison.

I am still trying to work out whether anyone can offer somewhere which is all-round better than D&D below 14th Street. Not hearing any convincing answers yet. Balducci's?

[Liza]

Nope, not Balduccis.

There, that was easy!

I'm still with you at D&D. I have bought pancetta at Bazzini's, which has expanded much beyond nuts these days. But I think that's even further downtown than you might want to venture.

[Bux]

As I noted, we go to Grand Sausage for pork and Ottomanelli's for beef and lamb. The latter is also the source of our Thanksgiving goose. Closer to you for pork and some eastern European style charcuterie is Kurowycky on First Avenue north of 7th Street. I've heard they have great ham, but I haven't tried it myself. It's one place that always seems to have fresh slabs of fat back.

We buy most of our fruits and vegetables in Chinatown. It's made some small changes in our eating habits, but a lot of those Chinese cabbages can be cooked as one would western vegetables, just the way they've adapted our vegetables into Chinese food in NY. We get fish in Chinatown and in terms of freshness, we've generally done well. There has been a problem or two and we prefer the Union Square Greenmarket as a source as often as possible. Of course I've had a problem or two in the fancy fish shops as well once or twice in thirty years.

I stopped into D&D this afternoon and looked at their cheeses. On the whole they looked pretty good, but it seemed to me that their selection of the soft ripe French cheeses and goat cheeses was smaller than I remember. Less selection is okay if the level of quality is higher. I didn't check the cheese prices as they'd be meaningless without tasting. Other prices I noticed seemed high. Packaged goods were too high for the convenience offered, but I suppose that depends on the value of one's time and one's pcketbook.

[Wilfrid]

Are we spoilt, Bux? One may be able to pick holes in D&D's cheese selection, but by the standards of - well - most Northern American cities let's say, it's really pretty adequate.

I too use Chinatown for shellfish and game in particular - great prices, and Kurowycky or First Avenue Meats for kishkes, sausages and pig's feet in jelly. Is Ottomanelli's really significantly better than D&D for meat?

[Bux]

Are we spoilt, Bux?  One may be able to pick holes in D&D's cheese selection, but by the standards of - well - most Northern American cities let's say, it's really pretty adequate.

I too use Chinatown for shellfish and game in particular - great prices, and Kurowycky or First Avenue Meats for kishkes, sausages and pig's feet in jelly.  Is Ottomanelli's really significantly better than D&D for meat?

Is Ottomanelli's really significantly better than D&D for meat?

Probably not significantly better and maybe not as good in some ways. My impression was that it was a lot less expensive. There's also Florence Meat Market on Jones Street around the corner from Ottomanelli. Some people prefer it.

[Toby]

Toby's post made me blink.  I lived in that neighborhood for a couple of years, and found the food shopping very good.  What's wrong with the French butcher apart from his prices?  Gramercy Fish a couple of doors away may not be the best in the city, but is pretty good by most standards.  Lamazou for cheese;  First Avenue Wines for wine; a pretty good Garden of Eden at 23rd and 3rd; the French deli attached to Pitchoune a few blocks down for baguettes and pates.

Wilfrid, most of these placese are mediocre. (I do like First Avenue Wines for wine; I hang out in there a lot.) Since I shop mostly for ingredients to cook, I find these stores not good enough. However, Wild Edibles just opened a store on 35th and 3rd, so that will help. My main complaint is the difficulty in finding really good produce in New York. In the winter it becomes a matter of finding the stores that have the freshest produce from California or Florida. I shop at Whole Foods in Chelsea a lot more in the winter; I think they're opening a store on 14th at Union Square and that will help. There's an organic health food store on 1st Avenue and around 10th Street (Commodity, Commodities??) that sometimes has very fresh tasting greens. While I love meat and fish, more and more it's the vegetables and what I can do with them and how they add color and freshness to a plate that interests me. When a vegetable isn't fresh, it's not even worth cooking it. Garden of Eden is very spotty to begin with, and the one on 3rd Avenue and 23rd must have a terrible turnover; their vegetables have no flavor whatsoever.

[nyfirepatrolchef]

I'm trying to figure out what high prices have to do with food that is past it's prime? Doesn't Jefferson Market ever sell food that is over the hill? I have that problem at almost every food store in the city. And the problem is especially bad with cheese. I also don't understand why anyone thinks that D & D has a good reputation? I don't know them to have a great reputation for anything but their cheese and their spices. I always thought the great thing about that store was how nice it was laid out. Not that they had bad food, but I always thought of their meat and fish dept as inferior to places like Balducci's or Citarella.

They (JM) certainly do. While on a foodie expedition with a former restaurant manager/foodie...we stopped in and took one look at the fish case looked at each other....went and finally and walked out.

[Jason Perlow]

The latter is also the source of our Thanksgiving goose

What the hell, Bux, Empire Kosher Turkeys not good enough for ya?