Why is Campari not considered an Amaro or a digestif?

[KatieLoeb]

Kohai? Buehller?? Anyone? No commentary on the "cocktails in Italy" thing after several days? I'd like someone to find some source material to back up that postulation. Seems we've already cured the "must-be-grape-based" end of the matter with Cynar not being grape based.

I'll back up my original statement that Campari isn't considered an amaro because it isn't served on it's own by saying it's a aperitif, because the company that produces it says it is. It's often like that. The marketing department decides what the product is whether it flies in the face of common wisdom and usage or not.

Edited November 3, 2009 by KatieLoeb (log)

[slkinsey]

Kohai? Buehller?? Anyone? No commentary on the "cocktails in Italy" thing after several days? I'd like someone to find some source material to back up that postulation. Seems we've already cured the "must-be-grape-based" end of the matter with Cynar not being grape based.

I'll back up my original statement that Campari isn't considered an amaro because it isn't served on it's own by saying it's a aperitif, because the company that produces it says it is. It's often like that. The marketing department decides what the product is whether it flies in the face of common wisdom and usage or not.

I would assert that most Italians might not ordinarily think of Campari as an amaro for reasons which have been well-described in this thread. But if you were to ask them about it, they'd likely say, "hmm... now that I think about it, I guess it is a kind of amaro." I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Campari is most often used as a mixer in its country of origin. Indeed, there can hardly be anything called cocktail culture in Italy. Yes, it is very popular with soda. But that's as far as it goes for the most part. I would say that it is most common there to take Campari neat or over ice, and significantly less common to mix it with anything other than soda.

Edited November 3, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[daisy17]

I'll back up my original statement that Campari isn't considered an amaro because it isn't served on it's own by saying it's a aperitif, because the company that produces it says it is. It's often like that. The marketing department decides what the product is whether it flies in the face of common wisdom and usage or not.

Why can't an amaro be an aperitif or a digestif? I understand and agree that most are digestifs, but I don't think it's aperitif-ness disqualifies it from being an amaro. I feel like I'm taking my LSATs again. I'm sticking with campari is an amaro.

[Sneakeater]

I admire anyone who can drink Unicum.

[slkinsey]

I'll back up my original statement that Campari isn't considered an amaro because it isn't served on it's own by saying it's a aperitif, because the company that produces it says it is. It's often like that. The marketing department decides what the product is whether it flies in the face of common wisdom and usage or not.

Why can't an amaro be an aperitif or a digestif? I understand and agree that most are digestifs, but I don't think it's aperitif-ness disqualifies it from being an amaro. I feel like I'm taking my LSATs again. I'm sticking with campari is an amaro.

There is no reason to say that amari are only digestivi in Italian culture. Cynar's own product literature, for example, describes it as an "aperitivo digestivo" -- explicitly stating that it can function as either. Given the strong similarity between the two products, I'd suggest that this opens the door for Campari as well.

I would also suggest that the reason Campari doesn't stress the "amaro" aspect of their product is that amari are in general still thought of as something that older people drink after a heavy meal, whereas Campari has long cultivated a hip, modern, younger image and the idea that Campari transcends any categorization (which is probably why they sell around a million bottles of Campari for every one bottle of Amaro Nonino, Averna, etc.).

I will further suggest that we (meaning those of us in the US cocktail culture) don't tend to think of Campari as an amaro because most of us were aware of Campari and Campari-based cocktails long before we were aware of amari as an Italian beverage category. The fact that there are those of us who hold that "amari" consists of a broad and uninterrupted spectrum extending from vermouth bianco all the way to Angostura bitters indicates that we're not thinking of these things the same ways Italians do (who could consider neither vermouth nor Angostura bitters nor Chartreuse to be amari).

Edited November 3, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[iraethan]

Kohai? Buehller?? Anyone? No commentary on the "cocktails in Italy" thing after several days? I'd like someone to find some source material to back up that postulation. Seems we've already cured the "must-be-grape-based" end of the matter with Cynar not being grape based.

The Negroni seems to have been invented in the early 1900s and was named after Camillo Negroni, of Florence. The Bellini was invented sometime between 1934 and 1948 in Venice. It seems that the oldest cocktail reference in Italy is the Spritz. It was said to have been born in the 19th century when Italy was under Austrian rule. The soldiers of the occupying armies were not used to the alcohol content of Italian wines and liqueurs, so water was added to dilute the flavor. Strictly speaking, can this even be considered a cocktail? It is still served in a select few bars in Italy. Here is one recipe I found for a Venetian Spritz, which seems to be widely consumed in Italy to this day. It is interesting to note that the original form of Campari and Soda may well have been introduced to the world not by Italians, but by occupying forces!

2 fingers of dry white wine, ideally bubbly prosecco

1 finger of the aperitif of choice (Aperol, Campari, or Cynar)

splash of mineral water (fizzy or natural)

With Campari or Cynar add little slice of lemon.

With Aperol add a slice of orange.

[thirtyoneknots]

I will further suggest that we (meaning those of us in the US cocktail culture) don't tend to think of Campari as an amaro because most of us were aware of Campari and Campari-based cocktails long before we were aware of amari as an Italian beverage category. The fact that there are those of us who hold that "amari" consists of a broad and uninterrupted spectrum extending from vermouth bianco all the way to Angostura bitters indicates that we're not thinking of these things the same ways Italians do (who could consider neither vermouth nor Angostura bitters nor Chartreuse to be amari).

I want to reiterate that to the best of my knowledge I never said Angostura bitters and Vermouth are amari, but rather that in my way of thinking, amari fit into a spectrum of bitter beverages that encompass both of those items as extremes.

Your other point is an interesting one, though. When I started learning about serious cocktails in early 2005 I was a little behind folks such as yourself on the learning curve, and there were hints of other bitter beverages such as Fernet starting to make appearances on the scene. That, coupled with seeing recipes on Drinkboy.com (an early favorite resource) calling for Campari and Fernet in dash amounts, probably helped shape my concept of bitters as a spectrum...a little after some would have formed a very different notion.

[Kohai]

There is no reason to say that amari are only digestivi in Italian culture. Cynar's own product literature, for example, describes it as an "aperitivo digestivo" -- explicitly stating that it can function as either. Given the strong similarity between the two products, I'd suggest that this opens the door for Campari as well.

Right. I've never been of the understanding that amari were solely considered after-dinner drinks. It seems further unlikely to me that Campari was developed with the intention of creating something to mix with other spirits. Rather, I imagine it was something to be consumed on its own but turned out to be a versatile product for which other uses were soon found.

[KD1191]

It seems further unlikely to me that Campari was developed with the intention of creating something to mix with other spirits. Rather, I imagine it was something to be consumed on its own but turned out to be a versatile product for which other uses were soon found.

Perhaps "developed with the intention" is too strong, but it certainly seems like it was being mixed very early in its existence, if not immediately. It seems like almost as soon as the product existed, there was the Milano-Torino (50-50 Campari & Sweet Vermouth), which was watered down for the Americano, and eventually the water swapped for gin by Count Negroni...

Edited November 4, 2009 by KD1191 (log)

[Kohai]

Quite. The Americano appears to have been created almost as soon as Campari was made.

[hathor]

Kohai? Buehller?? Anyone? No commentary on the "cocktails in Italy" thing after several days? I'd like someone to find some source material to back up that postulation. Seems we've already cured the "must-be-grape-based" end of the matter with Cynar not being grape based.

I'll back up my original statement that Campari isn't considered an amaro because it isn't served on it's own by saying it's a aperitif, because the company that produces it says it is. It's often like that. The marketing department decides what the product is whether it flies in the face of common wisdom and usage or not.

Oops, sorry Katie, I haven't checked back here in a few days.

I have an amazing Italian cocktail book by Luigi Veronilli, "i cocktails", published by Rizzoli in Milano in 1963. Amazing because it's incredibly well organized, thorough, an alphabetized index (!!) AND has the original spirit labels pasted into the book. (Oh, yeah! Total score....found it in a flea market in Udine).

He starts his history of the cocktail with fermentaion, aqua vitae etc and then writes: "All that is certain about cocktails, in the modern sense, was beginning to be spoken about in the 1800's.

"On July 18, 1806, in the periodical "The Balance" it was written, "The cocktail is a stimulant drink composed of alcoholic liquor of diverse quality, sometimes mixed with sugar, water, bitter; popularly called a 'bittered sling' and is considered vigorous and exciting."

S. Veronilli then denounces this definition by declaring the bittered sling a long drink, as he considers the original cocktails to be short drinks. He goes on to give credit to America for developing the art, or the science of mixing alcohol which developed without rules, but in time it became necessary to establish categories.

He defines a cocktail as "un acqua vitae modified and iced. And If I'm following his logic, anything alcoholic or fermented is an aqua vitae.

In regards directly to bitters (he sites angostura as a bitter and 'bitter Compari as being a modified bitter) he advocates parsimony. Paraphrasing: "It's possible to use too much, of bitters, or pure amari, usually a spray per drink is normal, or nothing, or 1-2 drops. They have the function of giving a drink the hint, or idea of a culinary recipe."

Now, what exactly that means is open to interpretation.

He lists only one "Campari Cocktail":

1 1/3 glass of dry gin

1/3 glass of bitter campari

1 spoonful of dry vermouth

2 pieces of lemon peel with nothing of the white

ice cubes

The Negroni recipe is a standard equal parts dry gin, vermouth classico, bitter campari recipe, garnished with a slice of orange.

So, what do you think?

I'm hypothesizing that he didn't really think too much about amari v. bitter campari. It's interesting to note that its always referred to as bitter campari, not capitalized and it didn't warrant getting a label in the book, although Angostura bitters did.

Digging around on Wiki and blogs, Campari is credited with being one of the premier bar beverage marketers. If you stocked Campari, you were required to post a "Campari Bitter" sign at the bar. "Cocktail Times" has a well written article, which also features the whole marketing aspect.

So perhaps, its all a matter of finding a niche and exploiting it.

Fascinating, non?

Edited because I'm challenged by reading in Italian and writing in English.

Edited November 5, 2009 by hathor (log)

[bostonapothecary]

Kohai? Buehller?? Anyone? No commentary on the "cocktails in Italy" thing after several days? I'd like someone to find some source material to back up that postulation. Seems we've already cured the "must-be-grape-based" end of the matter with Cynar not being grape based.

I'll back up my original statement that Campari isn't considered an amaro because it isn't served on it's own by saying it's a aperitif, because the company that produces it says it is. It's often like that. The marketing department decides what the product is whether it flies in the face of common wisdom and usage or not.

Oops, sorry Katie, I haven't checked back here in a few days.

I have an amazing Italian cocktail book by Luigi Veronilli, "i cocktails", published by Rizzoli in Milano in 1963. Amazing because it's incredibly well organized, thorough, an alphabetized index (!!) AND has the original spirit labels pasted into the book. (Oh, yeah! Total score....found it in a flea market in Udine).

He starts his history of the cocktail with fermentaion, aqua vitae etc and then writes: "All that is certain about cocktails, in the modern sense, was beginning to be spoken about in the 1800's.

"On July 18, 1806, in the periodical "The Balance" it was written, "The cocktail is a stimulant drink composed of alcoholic liquor of diverse quality, sometimes mixed with sugar, water, bitter; popularly called a 'bittered sling' and is considered vigorous and exciting."

S. Veronilli then denounces this definition by declaring the bittered sling a long drink, as he considers the original cocktails to be short drinks. He goes on to give credit to America for developing the art, or the science of mixing alcohol which developed without rules, but in time it became necessary to establish categories.

He defines a cocktail as "un acqua vitae modified and iced. And If I'm following his logic, anything alcoholic or fermented is an aqua vitae.

In regards directly to bitters (he sites angostura as a bitter and 'bitter Compari as being a modified bitter) he advocates parsimony. Paraphrasing: "It's possible to use too much, of bitters, or pure amari, usually a spray per drink is normal, or nothing, or 1-2 drops. They have the function of giving a drink the hint, or idea of a culinary recipe."

Now, what exactly that means is open to interpretation.

He lists only one "Campari Cocktail":

1 1/3 glass of dry gin

1/3 glass of bitter campari

1 spoonful of dry vermouth

2 pieces of lemon peel with nothing of the white

ice cubes

The Negroni recipe is a standard equal parts dry gin, vermouth classico, bitter campari recipe, garnished with a slice of orange.

So, what do you think?

I'm hypothesizing that he didn't really think too much about amari v. bitter campari. It's interesting to note that its always referred to as bitter campari, not capitalized and it didn't warrant getting a label in the book, although Angostura bitters did.

Digging around on Wiki and blogs, Campari is credited with being one of the premier bar beverage marketers. If you stocked Campari, you were required to post a "Campari Bitter" sign at the bar. "Cocktail Times" has a well written article, which also features the whole marketing aspect.

So perhaps, its all a matter of finding a niche and exploiting it.

Fascinating, non?

Edited because I'm challenged by reading in Italian and writing in English.

i have veronelli's book "the wines of italy". in the end it also has quite a lot of labels. quite a few are aromatized wines. he also has a tiny glossary of the most esoteric liqueurs. interesting stuff.

[KatieLoeb]

Fascinating stuff Judith! Thanks for digging that up. That book sounds like a definitely flea market score! I love it when stuff like that happens...