Larb Laab Larp

[tommy]

(was there any ruling on the usage of larb as a verb?)

i think this is a fantastic idea.

[mamster]

I think of naem sod as having pig skin but not lemongrass, and fermented. It's like a bulk version of sai krok.

[pim]

Nam Sod is not really a laab, unless you're extending the concept to include any meat-base salad. It is a Northern regional food, while Laab is Northeastern. I know they don't sound that different, but trust me the cuisines are quite substantially different from one another.

Mamster is right about the pork skin or rind. Also Nam Sod has steamed rice in it, not ground rice powder as in Laab. It is not fermented, however, as the word Sod in Thai means fresh. Nam (without the Sod part) on the other hand, is fermented and is usually done in a form of uncooked sausages. It is a famous local food of Chiang Mai-Chiang Rai region of the north.

I have a Kao Todd- Nam Sod recipe I can post when I get back to California. Nam Sod is often served with a fried rice ball (or rice patty) in Thailand. The recipe I have of rice patty (Kao Tod) has lemongrass and lime leaves in it. Quit yummy if I may say so myself.

You would have to be brave and do use the pork skin, however, otherwise it wouldn't really be a Nam now would it? :-)

Perhaps Varmint can save us some skin when he cooks his pig....

[snowangel]

Larb is really, really good when it's blazing hot outside.

[tommy]

Larb is really, really good when it's blazing hot outside.

god bless larb.

[pim]

As promised, here's my Nam Sod recipe.

At my house Nam Sod was always served with Kao Tod (fried seasoned rice patties).

enjoy!

[mrbigjas]

Wow, that looks good. I have a chunk of pork shoulder in my freezer with the skin on it... maybe it's time to defrost it and give this a shot.

[SethG]

Greetings, Larblings.

I will be Larbing for the first time this evening, and I intend to use snowangel's recipe. I have a question, however, and I hope someone in the Larbiverse will answer it before dinnertime arrives.

I haven't toasted rice before. I got some sticky rice, and I assume you do it just as you would a mexican chili, i.e., put it in a skillet over medium or medium-low heat and toss it until it just starts to brown.

I'm also assuming that I want to pulverize the rice pretty fine in my coffee grinder, since it's going to be flash-fried. Not much time for big chunks of rice to absorb water.

Are my assumptions good ones? Or have I made an ass out of u and me? Or just me?

Thanks for your help.

"That's it, that's the larb, that's the whole of the larb." --Peter Perrett

[tommy]

seth, your approach to toasting rice seems right on. toast and grind away. and don't be afraid to have a few big chunks of rice in the grind. the texture is what you're looking for here.

please tell us how it went.

[SethG]

Larb!

Loved it. Very spicy. Lots of lime. Lots of oniony goodness. Love the crunch of that toasted, ground rice.

If only I weren't out of beer.

[SethG]

The rice went great--- I'm glad you told me not to worry about chunks. Having had the dish, I realize now that the rice is not supposed to get soft like cooked rice-- I had thought mistakenly that it would become a sort of meal or flour when it contacted the liquid, and thus needed to be very very fine indeed.

It's funny, because reading about it on the page, I thought the very idea of mixing in uncooked rice was kind of revolting-- who wants to crunch uncooked rice (besides Fat Guy, I mean, who probably does so late at night along with a jar of kimchee)? But anyway, the rice is the key to the texture of the dish. That crunch is crucial.

"Oohh,

Larb to larb you, baby.

Oooohhhh,

Larb to larb you, baby."

--Donna Summer

[SEAsianOutpost]

nearly a month gone by and no new larb stories?

I tried to post my laap story weeks ago, but technical difficulties prevented it until now.

I've made laab or larb-like things a few times over the years, but reading this thread

inspired me as it appears to have many others. There have been a couple of key pieces of

advice in this thread that I followed that I'll mention along the way.

I started with boneless pork tenderloin and minced it by hand with a cleaver (I think food

processors tend to mush up the meat too much, unless you a) use nearly frozen meat

and b) are very careful not to over do it). Somewhat to my surprise, both recipes that I checked

in my Thai cookbooks called for galangal, so I used frozen fresh galangal (the dried stuff is only

suitable for use in soup (Tom Kha Gai)) minced and then pounded to paste with a morter. I

simmered the pork and the galangal in a little chicken stock [KEY TIP FROM THIS THREAD] (I would

not recommend cooking it with any lime juice - imo, lime juice tastes nasty when cooked) and left

it to sit to soak up the liquid [KEY TIP] while working on other parts. Finely sliced shallots,

shredded fresh mint leaves, and plenty of really fresh cillantro. Normally I don't like tons of cilantro

on my Thai food (putting me at odds with most Thais, who put huge amounts on compared to

American Thai food preparations), but when this dish is done right it can support a lot of cilantro and

be really good. Minced dried red chiles (one recipe I saw called for dried chiles, but

showed a picture clearly using fresh chiles, so go figure). Toasted jasmine rice in a pan and then

ground not-too-finely with a morter [KEY TIP]. IMO, the pre-fab roasted rice powder you can buy

in Asian markets is useful only for sanding -- it tastes nasty. Using sweet rice may be better, but

the freshly roasted jasmine rice was really good. Dressing of lime juice, fish sauce, and evaporated

cane sugar (*not* that fake "natural" sugar stuff -- it's gotta be cane [or palm] sugar). Since the tartness of

lime juice and both the strength and the saltiness of fish sauce vary, you can't give exact quantities

for the dressing -- you just have to taste it and adjust it to your liking. Like people say over and over

here, in Thai food balance (between strong flavors) is everything.

The result? Sublime. So good that I had to make another Thai salad just a couple of days later. So I

made what is probably my all-time favorite Thai salad (well, second only to the bbq'd duck salad we had

at the Kloister Beer Garden in Bangkok many years ago, which is the standard against which all other

salads will forever be judged), Som Tom. When I've had this in restaurants it is usually made with green

papaya, but I don't know if that's mandatory. In the past I've usually gone that way, too, but this time

I made it more laab-like, mainly just pork, ginger, shallots, peanuts, and dressing. Wicked good in this form,

too.

On the subject of what is and isn't "appropriate", "correct", "authentic", etc., in laap (or any Thai food, for that

matter), I think people need to get familar with the Thai concept of "sanuk". It doesn't translate very easily to

English, but "cool", "all right", and "fun" touch on it. If putting olives in your laap makes you happy, then do it

(just keep it away from me ). They key thing is not to stress out because you don't have some authentic

ingredient (though now and then there are dishes that are best simply avoided if you don't have key ingredients:

you can't make Tom Kha Gai without galangal, period, and you can't make Indonesian rendang without kaffir lime

leaves).

Btw, dried or powdered lemon grass is a crime against nature. The only reason to use lemon grass at all is for the

aromatic elements, and those are gone when it is dried, leaving nothing but saw dust. Buy it fresh, clean it and

cut it up, then freeze it. The result is 90+% as good as fresh. Same for galangal, except finding fresh galangal is

still really, really difficult, where as Melissa's does (way overpriced) lemon grass these days.

- Roger

[Jason Perlow]

Welcome to the site!

As to powdered lemongrass and galangal, it aint that bad, but yes, fresh or frozen is better. I've spoken to some thais about it and they seem to think it has its place in some applications.

[Blondie]

That might be my favorite first post ever. Another larboholic is born I use jasmine rice also and thinks it works well. Careful grinding so you don't get rice dust is the key as you pointed out. Toasting then grinding the dried chilis really raised the level of my larb. In fact since I've been making larb at home I've been consistently let down by restaurant versions.

Thanks, SEASianOutpost!

[SEAsianOutpost]

Has anyone else found that different cookbooks, particularly ones produced in different countries,

have very different notions of how big "a shallot" is? I once made a recipe from a Malaysan cookbook

that called for 15 shallots, and the result was a mass of shallot pulp with a little other flavor mixed in.

Clearly their notion of "a shallot" was much smaller than the shallots typically found in American grocery

stores. This pertains to laap (Tommy! ) because it could really mess up that crucial balance if

you're working from a tiny shallots cookbook but cooking with honkin' American mega-shallots.

I think the same holds true for garlic. In Thailand the garlic cloves are smaller, and possibly less pungent,

so the "amount" (count) of garlic called for in recipes can be too much if you're using American-sized (and

strength) garlic. Also, I think the papery skin on Thai garlic is much more delicate, so some recipes might

call for leaving it on -- which would be an ugly mistake with our heavily-clad garlic.

Btw, anyone interested in starting up a thread to talk about Kow Soi noodles? Lakhsa?

- Roger

[kathe]

I'm new to this thread but definately a laab maniac. Favorite so far is at Arharn Thai in Queens. Just the right ammount of lemongrass or is it kaffir lime leaf that makes it so aromatic.

At home I use ground chicken or turkey an entire bunch of mint and thai basil minced , jalapeno chilis ,and few scallions mixed into the ground meat after it is cooked just to wilt the herbs. Use toasted rice if am feeling ambitious .

After an inspirational visit to food court at the thai temple in LA have been adding lemongrass in rough cut slices.

[SEAsianOutpost]

Oh, man, Thai temple food festivals. When we lived in the (SF) Bay Area we'd go to the ones in Berkeley or Union City and get awesome food that was often radically different than anything available in restaurants. Strangely, I don't remember seeing laap but I do remember mind-blowing pounded salads, including one that used whole little pickled crabs. The best stuff was usually made by old ladies that spoke virtually no English and had clearly learned their skills back in the village. D**n, now you've gone and reminded me of another thing I miss from those days

- Roger

[Chad]

Okay, folks, I'm committing larb for the first time on Thursday -- Grand Larbceny!

The kids, of course, are just f*ing thrilled .

Never done this before. Is there anything I need to watch out for? Tips, tricks, hints?

Here's the plan:

ground pork (1lb)

2T ground toasted rice (I have sushi rice, will that work?)

2T of fish sauce (any particular brand I should get?)

3T lime juice

3T chicken stock

dried chiles or chile powder

2 shallots or so

scallions

diced red serranos (all my SuperChiles -- pequin/bird pepper hybrid -- are dead)

pinch of sugar

I'm thinking I'll poach/cook the pork in the chicken stock till brown, add the shallots, fish sauce, lime juice, peppers, toasted rice and sugar, cook enough to soften the shallots, take off the heat and garnish with scallions and lime zest. I'll serve on butter lettuce leaves.

Am I missing anything?

Chad

[tommy]

good for you chad.

a coupla things:

i use "3 crabs" brand fish sauce because ming tsai does. it's pretty good.

sushi rice will work fine i think. it's more a textural thing. that said, i just sprinkle it in right before plating. i then garnish with more. i love the stuff.

i usually add cilantro (i think!). sometimes a bit of mint, although some purists will probably ridicule me for that choice.

don't brown the meat. just poach it. it shouldn't take long at all. too much, and it'll toughen up on you.

don't worry too much about softening the shallots, unless that's your preference. in fact, after the meat is poached, i usually just take it off the heat and throw everything in and serve pretty much immediately.

please report back!

Edited November 18, 2003 by tommy (log)

[snowangel]

I use the Tiparos brand of fish sauce because that's what I grew up with in Thailand.

Sounds like you are on the right track, Chad. Some prefer a less "limey" and some a less "nam plaey" larp. Personal preference.

[tommy]

Some prefer a less "limey" and some a less "nam plaey" larp. Personal preference.

that's a good point.

it'll probably take a few tries to get the right balance for you. i know that i like it very acidic and bright, whereas my friend, another larb freak, likes more fish sauce and hates my larb. a wedge of lime as garnish could help there, as people can add more lime if they want.

[SEAsianOutpost]

Chad, don't cook anything but the meat. You want the thinly sliced shallots to be crisp and to have that mild raw shallot tang.

Squid Brand fish sauce is a classic, too.

As Tommy mentioned, fresh mint is a great addition. And you gotta have cilantro.

I think either chopped fresh chile or chile flakes is better than powder. You want little bits of intense heat, not a uniform heat throughout everything.

- Roger

[tommy]

I think either chopped fresh chile or chile flakes is better than powder. You want little bits of intense heat, not a uniform heat throughout everything.

agreed.

if you can find it, pick up pickled thai chilis. i use them all the time when i don't have fresh chilis. and since they're packed in vinegar, they last in the fridge forever, and they go nicely in acidic dishes like larb. they are certainly available mail-order somewhere.

[tommy]

chad, you might also consider mixing the fish sauce and lime juice (with a bit of sugar if you'd like) in a bowl separately. you can get a good feel for how the "dressing" will taste this way. but, when it hits the heat, even though it'll be off the flame, the flavors will change a bit. the fish sauce will mellow and the acidity might become more pronounced. but this is the approach i always use.

[Chad]

chad, you might also consider mixing the fish sauce and lime juice (with a bit of sugar if you'd like) in a bowl separately. you can get a good feel for how the "dressing" will taste this way. but, when it hits the heat, even though it'll be off the flame, the flavors will change a bit. the fish sauce will mellow and the acidity might become more pronounced. but this is the approach i always use.

Ah, good tip on mixing the fish sauce & lime. I didn't have time to go downtown to the Asian market, so I ran down to the local gourmet shop. I ended up with "Dynasty" brand fish sauce. Anybody got any info on this stuff?

Chad