Le Bernardin vs Per Se

[EoPandaBear]

Hey everyone, I'm going to be in NYC for a weekend and am wondering which restaurant is an, overall, better experience. I went to Daniel last year and thought the food, atmosphere, and service were wonderful. I've been to French Laundry and honestly was a little underwhelmed.

Is the 2x price of Per Se compared to Le Bernadin justifiable? ($275 vs $135) I'm leaning toward Le Bernadin.

[BryanZ]

To be fair you need to compare the more expensive menu at LeB at $185. Then Per we includes service, so the price isn't that much different.

Right now Leab seems to have some momentum going for it. Bruni said it was bus favorite meal of the year, and people I trust have raved in the latter half of 2008.

But Per Se is the "better" restaurant if meta consensus is to be believed.

Do you, umm, like seafood?

[sethd]

To be fair you need to compare the more expensive menu at LeB at $185. Then Per we includes service, so the price isn't that much different.

Right now Leab seems to have some momentum going for it. Bruni said it was bus favorite meal of the year, and people I trust have raved in the latter half of 2008.

But Per Se is the "better" restaurant if meta consensus is to be believed.

Do you, umm, like seafood?

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I don't think you can go wrong with either restaurant. I have eaten twice at Le Bernardin and Per Se in the last 3 weeks and had superlative experiences. Per Se may be the best dining experience in the city these days, but Le Bernardin is right up there. The service is faultless at both restaurants. The biggest difference, for me, is the price of the wines and the wine service. The Per Se list is much more expensive than the comparable list at Le Bernardin. I also think the wine service is better at Le Bernardin. Aldo Sohm, the head sommelier at Le Bernardin has been awarded best sommelier last year and is a wonderful, polite man and a pleasure to interact with....

Edited February 3, 2009 by sethd (log)

[oakapple]

To be fair you need to compare the more expensive menu at LeB at $185. Then Per we includes service, so the price isn't that much different.

However, it's a point in LeB's corner that it has several entry prices, and Per Se does not.

Right now Leab seems to have some momentum going for it. Bruni said it was bus favorite meal of the year, and people I trust have raved in the latter half of 2008.

I also had a terrific meal at LeB in 2008, but I didn't visit Per Se last year, and it may be that Bruni didn't either.

Per Se is (I am told) awfully similar to The French Laundry. If EoPandaBear was underwhelmed there, I'd say LeB is the better choice.

[Fat Guy]

I was underwhelmed by the French Laundry but think Per Se currently provides the top overall dining experience in New York City. Per Se lacks French Laundry's incredible setting, but in my experience it's better in every other way -- and its view of Columbus Circle isn't half bad either (certainly, it's better than the utterly unremarkable Le Bernardin location on the ground floor of the Equitable building). I think Per Se and the now-shuttered Alain Ducasse at the Essex House provide(d) a level of dining experience fully on par with Michelin three-star restaurants in Europe. Le Bernardin and Jean Georges do not. They are superb restaurants and I love them, but they are in a different category. At least that's how I see it.

[EoPandaBear]

In response to Bryan, LOVE seafood so it's all good.

Le Bernardin seems to me that it lacks atmosphere but if it's good food, I can forgive them. I realized after I posted that Per Se included service so I guess in the end, it's NOT that different. I can't drink alcohol anyway (cruddy Asian liver to blame).

I agree that some restaurants in the US rival the Michelin 3 start restaurants in Europe...for 1/2 the price! The thing in the US is that they gauge you for wine, whereas in Europe, wine is very reasonably priced. Since I don't drink, I'd rather have affordable food.

[yasuofenix]

I was just at Le Bern not too long ago. The last time I was at Per Se was last summer. From those experiences I'd say you can get a better experience at per se. The view is nice, the room is comforting, the staff can be super friendly, and they have a good gin & tonic! As far as the actual food goes, its good... but none of the dishes I've had there in the times I went were as excellent as any of the dishes I recently had at Le Bern.

But I'm biased, I breath seafood. And I once worked in the same place as Aldo and he's the best.

Regardless both restaurants are excellent and have some of the finest people working there and produce stellar experiences.

If you want to impress somebody and make them feel they got a meal out of it I'd say per se. The price could be the same for either.

[EoPandaBear]

To be fair you need to compare the more expensive menu at LeB at $185. Then Per we includes service, so the price isn't that much different.

Right now Leab seems to have some momentum going for it. Bruni said it was bus favorite meal of the year, and people I trust have raved in the latter half of 2008.

But Per Se is the "better" restaurant if meta consensus is to be believed.

Do you, umm, like seafood?

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Excuse my ignorance but who is Bruni?

[lhollers]

Excuse my ignorance but who is Bruni?

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Current NY Times food critic...

[sickchangeup]

I'm with FG, Per Se (and formerly ADNY) have an extra gear in reserve that to my experience other restaurants in the city just don't have. If they keep it in 4th gear on any given night, the two restaurants (LeB with chef's menu per Bz) are fairly comparable depending on taste. But if they go into 5th gear for whatever reason... forget about it, dining as you know it will be redefined.

[EoPandaBear]

I'm with FG, Per Se (and formerly ADNY) have an extra gear in reserve that to my experience other restaurants in the city just don't have.  If they keep it in 4th gear on any given night, the two restaurants (LeB with chef's menu per Bz) are fairly comparable depending on taste.  But if they go into 5th gear for whatever reason... forget about it, dining as you know it will be redefined.

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What happened to ADNY if it was so successful?

[EoPandaBear]

I'm with FG, Per Se (and formerly ADNY) have an extra gear in reserve that to my experience other restaurants in the city just don't have.   If they keep it in 4th gear on any given night, the two restaurants (LeB with chef's menu per Bz) are fairly comparable depending on taste.  But if they go into 5th gear for whatever reason... forget about it, dining as you know it will be redefined.

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What happened to ADNY if it was so successful?

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Oh and how is Adour?

[sickchangeup]

I'm with FG, Per Se (and formerly ADNY) have an extra gear in reserve that to my experience other restaurants in the city just don't have.   If they keep it in 4th gear on any given night, the two restaurants (LeB with chef's menu per Bz) are fairly comparable depending on taste.  But if they go into 5th gear for whatever reason... forget about it, dining as you know it will be redefined.

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What happened to ADNY if it was so successful?

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They lost their lease if Chef Ducasse is to be taken at his word. Something else if he is not.

[Felonius]

I was underwhelmed by the French Laundry but think Per Se currently provides the top overall dining experience in New York City. Per Se lacks French Laundry's incredible setting, but in my experience it's better in every other way -- and its view of Columbus Circle isn't half bad either (certainly, it's better than the utterly unremarkable Le Bernardin location on the ground floor of the Equitable building). I think Per Se and the now-shuttered Alain Ducasse at the Essex House provide(d) a level of dining experience fully on par with Michelin three-star restaurants in Europe. Le Bernardin and Jean Georges do not. They are superb restaurants and I love them, but they are in a different category. At least that's how I see it.

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Ditto. Steven, as usual, has called the play accurately. Go for Per Se if you want the whole nine yards and don't mind paying for it.

Le Bernardin is still one of the best restaurants in America, no small feat given how long they've been at it on the competitive restaurant scene in NYC. However, the setting is mediocre and the service, while entirely professional, is not at the Michelin 3 star level. I haven't been to Per Se (though have been to French Laundry several times), but have heard through trusted sources that they are the only NYC restaurant offering a show on par with what Ducasse was doing at the Essex House. In my opinion, that was a dining experience unrivalled in NYC by Daniel, Jean-Georges, etc. It took things to another level, that I have only encountered in a few restaurants in Europe.

I could wax poetic about why ADNY was great, but in the end it was a sensory experience that defies description. It reminds me of the Senator who tried with little success to legally define pornography during a Senate hearing and in frustration finally said "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." Same thing for Ducasse, and I would expect at Per Se.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Felonius (log)

[chefboy24]

le bernardin is a joke. the fish are bland, there is no crunch, the cheese is horrible, the captains don't speak clear english.... oh, also, everyone is working a double and is tired and has been there for years and doesn't give a shit any more.

per se is 1000% better from the reservation to the greeting at the door to the menus, ambiance, decor, service, warmth, food quality, cheese, desserts, kitchen tour, petit fours, flowers, view, wine list.

i'd rather go to just about any 3 star than le bernardin.

[Chris Amirault]

chefboy24, can you say more about your experiences with the two places? How often have you eaten there lately? Have you worked there or do you have inside knowledge about their management?

[sethd]

I was underwhelmed by the French Laundry but think Per Se currently provides the top overall dining experience in New York City. Per Se lacks French Laundry's incredible setting, but in my experience it's better in every other way -- and its view of Columbus Circle isn't half bad either (certainly, it's better than the utterly unremarkable Le Bernardin location on the ground floor of the Equitable building). I think Per Se and the now-shuttered Alain Ducasse at the Essex House provide(d) a level of dining experience fully on par with Michelin three-star restaurants in Europe. Le Bernardin and Jean Georges do not. They are superb restaurants and I love them, but they are in a different category. At least that's how I see it.

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Although I agree Per Se and ADNY gave the best approximation with three star dining in Europe, they don't equal the best that can be found in Europe. I recently asked one of the g.m.'s at Per Se how he felt his restaurant compared to the best in Paris ( he had just returned from eating at some of the three stars in Paris), his response was in short that as good as Per Se is, the French just do fine dining better.

I have never had anything but superlative service at Le Bernardin and I have eaten there monthly since 2001.

[robert40]

I was underwhelmed by the French Laundry but think Per Se currently provides the top overall dining experience in New York City. Per Se lacks French Laundry's incredible setting, but in my experience it's better in every other way -- and its view of Columbus Circle isn't half bad either (certainly, it's better than the utterly unremarkable Le Bernardin location on the ground floor of the Equitable building). I think Per Se and the now-shuttered Alain Ducasse at the Essex House provide(d) a level of dining experience fully on par with Michelin three-star restaurants in Europe. Le Bernardin and Jean Georges do not. They are superb restaurants and I love them, but they are in a different category. At least that's how I see it.

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Although I agree Per Se and ADNY gave the best approximation with three star dining in Europe, they don't equal the best that can be found in Europe. I recently asked one of the g.m.'s at Per Se how he felt his restaurant compared to the best in Paris ( he had just returned from eating at some of the three stars in Paris), his response was in short that as good as Per Se is, the French just do fine dining better.

I have never had anything but superlative service at Le Bernardin and I have eaten there monthly since 2001.

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This subject comes up from time to time. What I always find interesting is when reading the France board there never shows overwhelming evidence of it.

Examples. I can't count the times I read reports about Gagnaire being wildly inconsistent. Or L'Ambroisie treating regulars differently then the unknown.

Just yesterday I went back and reread BryanZ report on L'Astrance and noticed his mentioning of waiting for the check.

And Bocuse? At the very least it has been ten years of reading his 3 star rating is carved in stone mostly out of respect and loyalty.

Not wishing to throw this thread off topic it would be an interesting discussion if there is not a existing one.

[Felonius]

I have eaten at most of the top NYC (as well as San Francisco, Atlanta, DC, Philly) restaurants multiple times, Per Se being the notable exception. Still, my top ten/most memorable meals of all time were nearly all in France, and one in Spain. Some in France were not even at 3 star or the highest rated restaurants. Only three were in America, and of those two were by French chefs - ADNY and many years ago at Jean Louis Palladin's place in DC. The other was privately arranged tasting menu/wine dinner by Andrew Carmellini at Cafe Boulud.

Why this is, I don't know, but I know it.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Felonius (log)

[sethd]

Examples. I can't count the times I read reports about Gagnaire being wildly inconsistent. Or L'Ambroisie treating regulars differently then the unknown.

Just yesterday I went back and reread BryanZ report on L'Astrance and noticed his mentioning of waiting for the check.

And Bocuse? At the very least it has been ten years of reading his 3 star rating is carved in stone mostly out of respect and loyalty.

Not wishing to throw this thread off topic it would be an interesting discussion if there is not a existing one.

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One of the continuing themes on this board is the possibility of having bad experiences at even the best restaurants here in New York or in France. For example, most people on this board extol the virtues of EMP, while my meal there was a travesty. I do think, however, that the entire dining experience in France is different from the states. it is possible to have superlative meals, even in unstarred places, in small French towns. The french pride themselves on a love of all things food. We in America approach food, dining, and service much differently from the French. Those differences, i believe, are magnified in the fine dining restaurants.

I, too, had my best, most memorable meals in New York at ADNY.

[chefboy24]

chefboy24, can you say more about your experiences with the two places? How often have you eaten there lately? Have you worked there or do you have inside knowledge about their management?

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i have worked at neither. i had a totally disappointing $175 lunch at le bernardin maybe 2 weeks ago, just to really make sure i hated it. i was inspired to go by bruni's best meal of 2008...i respect bruni more than any other ny food critic. i have interviewed at per se a couple times and i have a few friends who work at per se but i have never worked for them.

at le bernardin....they have issues communicating... like whether you ordered a drink at the bar or not, putting that drink on the check.... whether you ordered wine yet. i always order whites and they always bring this weird ice bucket next to my table, and i always ask for my white to be on the table but they try 2-3 times to put it on ice.

also i've been there like 4, mayabe 5 or 6 times. i never get a welcome back. i tend to make same day lunch reservations and the hostesses look at opentable reports that are printed at maybe 10 am, and i always make my reservation around noon and for some reason they don't look at an up to date opentable screen, they look at a print out, so they never believe i have a reservation...what's worse is that the dining room is half full at lunch.

as for the menu at bernardin now... i have had the:

progression of oysters - boring

fluke with white soy - tasted oddly of $1 ramen noodle packet spices

crab with cauliflower and mousseline? - actually really awesome, i love good crab but the portion was so insanely small.

monkfish - totally boring and the rose water cous cous made me barf

black bass - brilliant peppercorn sauce but the only vege on my plate was 3 sad pieces of celery

halibut & brussels, uni sauce - couldn't taste the uni, and i've made better poached halibut in my house that i bought from bouley market or citarella

the amuse bouche at lunch is a salmon spread or salmon cream cheese? it totally tastes like it came from a good jewish deli.

and the waitstaff doesn't speak english!

i just. don't. get it.

and for $28 - you could eat much better at jean georges or emp for lunch.

Edited February 3, 2009 by chefboy24 (log)

[Sneakeater]

Supreme Court Justice (Potter Stewart), not Senator.

[chefboy24]

i mean just to give you an example

when i go to per se, everyone behind the door instantly knows me by name, welcomes me by name, welcomes me back with big smiles.

when i go to le bernardin, nobody smiles, nobody makes eye contact, and some clueless hostess is bumbling around looking for my reservation.

when i leave per se, they already have my jackets ready (no coat check ticket required)... they have something packed up for me to go (maybe i really liked the caramels at the end of the meal and they packed up 10 or so of them for the road)...

when you leave le bernardin you have to wait for someone to find your coat and there is no warm goodbye (at least not as warm as per se's)

these are just a few tiny examples. per se is in another league. and of course the managers at per se are going to be humble.... that's their schtick! can you imagine if they were arrogant about themselves, what a turnoff that would be!

[sethd]

i mean just to give you an example

when i go to per se, everyone behind the door instantly knows me by name, welcomes me by name, welcomes me back with big smiles.

when i go to le bernardin, nobody smiles, nobody makes eye contact, and some clueless hostess is bumbling around looking for my reservation.

when i leave per se, they already have my jackets ready (no coat check ticket required)... they have something packed up for me to go (maybe i really liked the caramels at the end of the meal and they packed up 10 or so of them for the road)...

when you leave le bernardin you have to wait for someone to find your coat and there is no warm goodbye (at least not as warm as per se's)

these are just a few tiny examples.  per se is in another league.  and of course the managers at per se are going to be humble.... that's their schtick! can you imagine if they were arrogant about themselves, what a turnoff that would be!

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I will give another impression of Le Bernardin. I am always greeted by name when I arrive at the restaurant and I am welcomed by the entire wait staff when I am seated. I am always treated graciously even by the reservationist. I am always given a pleasant good bye when I leave. I find the service faultless, although once they spilled wine on the table while pouring, and I believe that the wine service is the best in the city. M. Sohm is a pre-emiment gentleman and I enjoy interacting with him whenever I eat at Le Bernardin. I am also welcomed by M. Ripert at all of my meals. The one time Keller was at Per Se he didn't even walk into the dining room. However, I do agree that the service at Per Se is superb. My last meal there this past saturday lunch was a wonderful progression of 15 courses with great wines and exemplary service.

[chefboy24]

funny i have never seen ripert in the dining room. i have never seen aldo sohm smile. actually, come to think of it, i can't remember anyone smiling at le bernardin. i feel like we are going to different restaurants?

Edited February 3, 2009 by chefboy24 (log)