Innovation

[Lord Michael Lewis]

How do other members percieve the current chefly obsession with novelty and innovation?

Personally, I would prefer to eat one of Pierre Koffman's Pig's Trotters than Blumenthal's Snail Porridge, for the simple fact that Koffman has dedicated his long career to getting a few dishes exactly right, whereas Blumenthal's food relies on novelty and is harder to judge as it has no benchmark.

On the other hand, I am old enough to remember food pre-Cuisine Minceur. In this period there is no doubt in my mind that food was much improved. However, I tend to feel that Michel Guerard and his contemporaries were innovating in order to solve some problems of their craft. This is something I don't see today, at least in the U.K.

[Jinmyo]

Other than HB, who do you see as the worst offenders in the push for innovation for its own sake?

[John Whiting]

Cuisine Minceur was only marginally related to Nouvelle Cuisine. Guerard's aim was specifically to create a low-calory regimen for the residents of his sanitarium. He wrote another book _Cuisine Gourmande_, which pulls all the stops out -- his Terrine of wild duck with half a pint of double cream and 4 egg yolks is not for the abstemious!

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Cuisine Minceur was only marginally related to Nouvelle Cuisine. Guerard's aim was specifically to create a low-calory regimen for the residents of his sanitarium. He wrote another book _Cuisine Gourmande_, which pulls all the stops out -- his Terrine of wild duck with half a pint of double cream and 4 egg yolks is not for the abstemious! 

As I understand it, and I am not an expert, Cuisine Minceur, with it's concessions to healthy eating, eliminated flour thickened sauces, and the reliance on cream and butter. Albeit, perhaps, unintentional, the resulting product had more pronounced flavour, etc.

As far as other U.K. offenders go, there is John Campbell, the fusion chap at Provedores, and, ironically, lots of Blumenthal imitators.

[Bux]

In the last paragraph of the prologue to the 1976 American edition of Michel Guerard's Cuisine Minceur, Guerard says:

I intend to prepare, every soon, a second bood of orignal recipes, some of which may indeed be rather fattening. But also I cherish an old dream that one day in the future I may combine cuisine gourmande with cuisine minceur to create a new art of living for deserving gourmands of today and tomorrow.

Did he ever create that new art? His extensive use of "artificial sweeteners in the desserts of this book went a long way towards making me believe cuisine minceur was diet cooking rather than a revolutionary approach to cooking. I'm not even sure this food was ever served in his main restaurant.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

In the last paragraph of the prologue to the 1976 American edition of Michel Guerard's Cuisine Minceur, Guerard says:

I intend to prepare, every soon, a second bood of orignal recipes, some of which may indeed be rather fattening. But also I cherish an old dream that one day in the future I may combine cuisine gourmande with cuisine minceur to create a new art of living for deserving gourmands of today and tomorrow.

Did he ever create that new art? His extensive use of "artificial sweeteners in the desserts of this book went a long way towards making me believe cuisine minceur was diet cooking rather than a revolutionary approach to cooking. I'm not even sure this food was ever served in his main restaurant.

Okay, whatever. I'm loathe to let this thread go off topic so soon, so I'll just rephrase my original post: To what extent is innovation important and at what stage of a chef's career is it appropriate to innovate?

[Nick]

Okay, whatever. I'm loathe to let this thread go off topic so soon, so I'll just rephrase my original post: To what extent is innovation important and at what stage of a chef's career is it appropriate to innovate?

I'm certainly not a chef, but I've been cooking for awhile and have just started getting into innovation. Mostly with sauces at this point, but also with main dishes. I wouldn't want to try too much if I were cooking for guests, but when alone I'm trying out some stuff you won't find in any cookbook. Fairly tame, but so far edible if not tasty. Start giving it a try.

Not being a chef, I can't say at what point in one's career to start innovating. But, if you've been cooking for awhile and know some of your ingredients, why not start now? Just don't try it on your guests the first or second time around. Get it down first.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

This is it. What do you need to know before you can innovate?

[Suvir Saran]

Not being a chef, I can't say at what point in one's career to start innovating. But, if you've been cooking for awhile and know some of your ingredients, why not start now? Just don't try it on your guests the first or second time around. Get it down first.

That is exactly what needs to be done.

Innovation is very important. A natural course of life and certainly of the arts. Why should one treat the culinary arts in any different way.

I agree with you about first getting the new trends ironed out before sharing with guests.

My problem is with the chefs doing homework on guests. That is a mockery of what restaurant dining is all about.

[John Whiting]

There is a serious problem for artists and craftspersons of all sorts when, as in our modern society, novelty becomes an end in itself. Of course there has always been a thirst for changing fashions, but what is new is the accellerating pace which marketing demands and mass communication makes possible. It's not surprising that successful hi-profile chefs are expected to revamp their image as regularly as auto designers change their contours and their colours.

[Steve Plotnicki]

To what extent is innovation important and at what stage of a chef's career is it appropriate to innovate

Innovation is important relevent to what else is happening in the marketplace. If the marketplace is old and stodgy, then it will welcome innovation. But if hasn't yet exhausted the latest ideas, it could ignore innovation. As for when it is appropriate, I thunk chefs have to be innovative near the beginning of their careers. I don't see many 50+ year old chefs being innovative now if they haven't been innovative in the past.

[Nick]

This is it. What do you need to know before you can innovate?

You're giving me something to think about. I don't know, I really don't. I pretty much just started. I've done some stuff, but now I'm branching out.

I've always cooked fairly simply - or at that's what I think. I think that's a good place to start. And, don't use too much of anything in the way of herbs or spices until you know what they'll do - then don't use too much. Learn the proportions of the meat and vegetables and grains when you're putting things together. Also think of the colors that will be on the plate. And the textures.

(Suvir) "My problem is with the chefs doing homework on guests."

If the chef is good enough, and has regular customers, there's nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be nice if the chef (who's cooking you knew) came to the table and asked if you'd like to try out something new and described it to you? And you could, without offense, demur. But, that would not be likely as the chef would know your tastes.

Well, I've wandered off into wonderland on that last bit.

[wingding]

The pat answer is that a chef should have a thorough working knowledge of classic techniques and a well educated pallette,before attempting to break new ground.That being said,some people have come in from left field-self educated and thinking different,and make fresh tasting,seemingly new food.There's a lot of horrid,pretentious dross too...Other innovations have come from mistakes made in executing a classic dish,which ended up tasting good...I admit to looking through a lot of modernist cookery books,and after initially being wowed,wondering how good the dishes really taste.Successful,innovative cooking filters down,bringing new techniques and flavor combinations to the restaurant biz,and to the home cook.I'm not going to get into arguments about what good and successful are,thank you....that's for greater minds here

[cakewalk]

Do you think there is a difference between "innovation" and "inventiveness" -- and does this matter at all in what you're asking? Are you asking when it's okay for a chef to be innovative (e.g., make changes) with an already existing dish, or literally to "invent" a new dish? And what's the distinction between the two? (Or is this just completely off the mark because I'm tired and punchy from reading the snobby thread? In which case, never mind.)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

The pat answer is that a chef should have a thorough working knowledge of classic techniques and a well educated pallette,before attempting to break new ground.

A "pat" answer, but perhaps a good answer?

[Peter B Wolf]

I am a chef, practised for 49 years, now retired. When does one become innovative? Probably as the profession becomes a love affair vs. just a paycheck. The only prerequisit is to have an understanding boss, or when one is on their own, i.e. selfemployed.

I for one was never the proud owner of my own establishment. Very few places/businesses/restaurants let their chef stray afar from the concept/theme/menu of the owner's "Posession". The chef may have the luxury of suggesting something new or different, but with so many bosses/owners not chefs themselves, succeeding with those desires is rather rare.

I was quite lucky for some time (and some time ago) where my boss, the owner of an established family owned restaurant very much ecouraged me to come up with new ideas. Monday nights were good times to experiment, as the boss and his girl Friday (the seven day week twelve hour secretary) sat down together for dinner with a shout into the kitchen "Ok "Peter, let's roll it". So, many Monday nights I thought I had something good, something 'gooder' than another time. Not always, but often, something was innovative, and to my pleasure and satisfaction, we adopted it into our daily routines and methodology.

I never bacame as good as the celebraty chefs of the past or the ones of today. But some of my innovations were "sold". But again, non good enough to write about, but good enough for me and my boss. Thanks Rupprecht.

[Nick]

Do you think there is a difference between "innovation" and "inventiveness" -- and does this matter at all in what you're asking? Are you asking when it's okay for a chef to be innovative (e.g., make changes) with an already existing dish, or literally to "invent" a new dish? And what's the distinction between the two? (Or is this just completely off the mark because I'm tired and punchy from reading the snobby thread? In which case, never mind.)

Jeez Cakewalk, I don't think this is a snobby thread. We're talking about doin' shit. But, you know maybe it's neither innovation nor inventiveness - maybe it's just soul.

[wingding]

I wrote 'pat answer' 'cause it seems so obvious.You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk,and then run.One of the things that have gone awry in cooking today is the belief of many people that recipes,not technique,are the basis of cooking.It's an easy trap to fall into...

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Shaun Hill, a chef whose work I rate highly, said, on the topic of Molecular Gastronomy:

I don't want to create combinations solely because they are possible. It's difficult enough as it is.

[Jinmyo]

I was pleased with Shaun's response on that topic as well. Concise and practical, coming from a deep sense of the realities and virtues of the craft.

[cakewalk]

Jeez Cakewalk, I don't think this is a snobby thread. We're talking about doin' shit. But, you know maybe it's neither innovation nor inventiveness - maybe it's just soul.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. No, this isn't a snobby thread. In truth snobbery gets cut down to size pretty quickly around here. I was referring to the "are you a food snob" thread. Which is not a snobby thread, either (it's just a little, um, repetitive?). I was just being lazy and playing with the word "snob" in the title. Sorry.

[Suvir Saran]

(Suvir) "My problem is with the chefs doing homework on guests."

If the chef is good enough, and has regular customers, there's nothing wrong with that. Wouldn't it be nice if the chef (who's cooking you knew) came to the table and asked if you'd like to try out something new and described it to you? And you could, without offense, demur. But, that would not be likely as the chef would know your tastes.

Well, I've wandered off into wonderland on that last bit.

That is the wise thing to do. And I have done that in my restaurants. With my food and also encouraged chefs that worked in the kitchen to do the same. But it was nothing written on a menu, nothing announced to the public. We selected a very few regulars who were told these tastes were nothing more than "mere" trial and error play.

And for giving us that feedback, I would pick their tab that night. So, even if our trials turned disastrous, which most times they were not, the guest was able to enjoy what they came for. And felt they got much more. A win-win situation.

And no, you did not wander off... you got it right.

There is a huge distinction between what you suggest here and what is loosely understood and innovative and inventive cooking. It is often given a home even before it has a body. Does it have a soul? That would take even longer to fathom or find. But that could be an endless search for many an artistic creation.

[Suvir Saran]

Shaun Hill, a chef whose work I rate highly, said, on the topic of Molecular Gastronomy:

I don't want to create combinations solely because they are possible. It's difficult enough as it is.

Beautifully said!

[Suvir Saran]

I wrote 'pat answer' 'cause it seems so obvious.You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk,and then run.One of the things that have gone awry in cooking today is the belief of many people that recipes,not technique,are the basis of cooking.It's an easy trap to fall into...

thanks for another great post wingding.

[John Whiting]

And for giving us that feedback, I would pick their tab that night.

Suvir, if you ever think of hiring a full-time taster, I'd be prepared to consider moving to NYC.