The Ontology of the Shun Ken Onion Chef's Knife

[paulraphael]

I'm not sure how a knife can be stupid, and the wide variety of styles out there would suggest that different people have different needs. There are lots of different ways, for example, for someone to hold a knife, and facilitating one over another is a design decision, not an acknowledgment of ineptitude. 

In most cases I agree. This isn't one of them.

There are several efficient ways to hold a knife. And there are many more inefficient ways. The Ken Onion knife is designed to encourage (enforce!) one very inefficient way. Better knife designs allow you to choose from among any of the efficient ways (standard western or wa handles, gyuto shaped blades, etc.).

Additionally, it costs close to twice as much as many knives that will outperform it in almost every way. This is more than stupid enough for me!

[JAZ]

I'm not sure how a knife can be stupid, and the wide variety of styles out there would suggest that different people have different needs. There are lots of different ways, for example, for someone to hold a knife, and facilitating one over another is a design decision, not an acknowledgment of ineptitude. 

In most cases I agree. This isn't one of them.

There are several efficient ways to hold a knife. And there are many more inefficient ways. The Ken Onion knife is designed to encourage (enforce!) one very inefficient way. Better knife designs allow you to choose from among any of the efficient ways (standard western or wa handles, gyuto shaped blades, etc.).

Additionally, it costs close to twice as much as many knives that will outperform it in almost every way. This is more than stupid enough for me!

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I don't understand. Which grip does it encourage, and why is that grip inefficient? I own a smaller Ken Onion, and for my hand, it's one of the most comfortable knives I have.

[Octaveman]

We can lead the masses to water but we can't make them drink. It takes a leap of faith to step out of the box (or the store stocking Shun) and to venture into the sometimes very confusing and nerve wracking world of Japanese knives. For many, a Shun is a HUGE difference to the knives they've been using and are so astounded at how well it cuts or holds an edge that there is no way anyone can think there is a multitude of Japanese knives that are significantly better available. A Shun is not by any stretch of the imagination a viable representative of what a Japanese knife is. The only thing that can be compared is the steel used. Forget about geometry, profile, efficiency, blah blah blah... it still comes down to convenience to the buyer and the ability to "hold" it first.

While not very tactfully stated in posts above, it is true. It's also true that people find different handle styles more comfortable. It's also true that most of the people don't use the knife long enough at a time to cause carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, or whatever. Which leads to it's also true that people don't need to care about devine technique. It's also true that people just want something to cut the damn onion with regardless if it takes them 10 seconds or 30 seconds. So how someone grips a knife is irrelevant to the person using it. Anyone can USE a knife well enough if it's a comfortable fit. As it's been said...90% skill and 10% equipment.

I don't like Shun for a few reasons but I do recognize that it's certainly a step up from Euro knives. The Classic line is affordable and a good knife value. All the other lines are not given the Japanese knives that are easily attainable online. The KO is definately not a knife I would ever own or recommend. Sure it might be more comfortable if you hold your knife by the handle but if you pinch grip it, then you've just negated the whole purpose of the ergo handle and spent a lot of money for it too. I've held the knife. Yes, the handle is comfortable but I don't hold a knife like a tennis racquet. It became awkward for me with a pinch grip.

...and facilitating one over another is a design decision, not an acknowledgment of ineptitude.

This is a prime example of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Did Shun recognize that millions of people around the world hold their knife wrong so they make a new design to cash in on their ineptitude or are they doing these people a service by making a design to help them. I vote the former. It's nothing personal, just business.

Regardless of what I think of a knife I have no problem people using whatever they'd like simply because it doesn't matter what I think. And unless people turn into knife nuts and buy and sell various knives over the course of a few years they will never no the difference and understand what we're talking about. A few here on eG have contacted me and as a result have taken that leap of faith with 100% satisfaction. None of them ultimately bought a Shun.

[paulraphael]

I don't understand. Which grip does it encourage, and why is that grip inefficient? I own a smaller Ken Onion, and for my hand, it's one of the most comfortable knives I have.

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it encourages you snug your fingers around the handle, and hold it tight, with your knuckle pressed against the blade.

this does indeed feel comfortable and natural; it's why shun is able to sell a lot of these knives to home cooks. but if you've practiced good cutting techniques with more conventional japanese knives (ones that require a very loose grip, and allow the handle to pivot with a loosely held wrist) you'll find the ken onion design will fight any attempt at using those techniques. it will just be in the way.

If a knife is sharp and if your technique takes advantage of the sharpness, "comfort" becomes a non issue. You won't be holding the knife firmly enough for one knife to be more comfortable than another. The design of the knife just needs to let it get out of your way.

compared with the Ken Onion, there's a long list of superior performing knives with much more versatile designs, for the same money, and even for much less.

[manton]

It takes a leap of faith to step out of the box (or the store stocking Shun) and to venture into the sometimes very confusing and nerve wracking world of Japanese knives.  For many, a Shun is a HUGE difference to the knives they've been using and are so astounded at how well it cuts or holds an edge that there is no way anyone can think there is a multitude of Japanese knives that are significantly better available.

This pretty much describes me.

[JAZ]

Sure it might be more comfortable if you hold your knife by the handle but if you pinch grip it, then you've just negated the whole purpose of the ergo handle and spent a lot of money for it too.  I've held the knife.  Yes, the handle is comfortable but I don't hold a knife like a tennis racquet.

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it encourages you snug your fingers around the handle, and hold it tight, with your knuckle pressed against the blade.

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Interesting.

I don't hold a knife like a tennis racquet. Neither do I hold it tight with my knuckle pressed against the blade (not exactly sure what "snug your fingers around the handle" means, but I'm pretty sure I don't do that, either). I use a pinch grip, and the Ken Onion handle works well for me with that grip.

To each his own, I guess.

[Human Bean]

[...]  The KO is definately not a knife I would ever own or recommend.  [...]  It became awkward for me with a pinch grip.

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A great example that people are different. I reported a few posts above that I tried the KO with pinch grip expecting it to not work well, and it felt perfect, much to my surprise.

This is why I'd never buy a knife without trying it first.

[hawkster27]

First off, through the magic of Photoshop, here's a direct comparison of the Shun Classic and Shun Ken Onion (the Onion has been bumped up just a bit so you can see the Classic below) and yes, they are very similar.

But here's my reason for reviving this interesting thread. I got a KO for Christmas from a generous friend, and I've been quite impressed by it. It's a freaking razor, and is quite comfortable for me. Aesthetically, I'd prefer a Bob Kramer [especially a handmade one], but that's another story. After five months, I've used the KO enough to start thinking about sharpening it. I'm aware of Shun's lifetime sharpening offer, which they recommend, but that means being without the Onion for one month out of every year. I have a Japanese whetstone, but I've only gotten middling results on my cheap-o yanagiba with it (my fault, not the stone's). What I have been happy with is my Chef's Choice 15XV. I've converted all of my Henckels to a 15 degree edge with it, and they've never been better. Now I'm tempted to run the Ken Onion through it. Do you have any opinions or cautions about this blasphemous thought?

[Chris Amirault]

Interesting that this should pop up. In packing up the kitchen, I'm realizing that I almost never use this knife now. Truth be told, the grip in the end just doesn't quite work for my hand....

[Dakki]

A couple of years ago I bought the Shun KO 10" to ship on to a friend who lives in a country where it was unavailable. I kept it and used it for a few days before shipping it along. The handle didn't do a lot for me either but I liked it just enough that I got a block full of Alton's Angles when Woot had them for a ridiculous price one day - cheaper than Foschners, even.

Most cost-effective knives purchase I ever made, although they don't hold a candle to the gyuto from an unknown maker purchased at a store in Kappabashi - the one with the suit of armor outside whose owner speaks fluent Spanish.

Anyway my opinion is that Shuns are about halfway between a really good Western knife and a "pure" gyuto/Japanese Chef's and combine many of the virtues and some of the vices of both. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Shuns to people who want to try Japanese steel but are shy about changing their technique, although the price point is a bit high for a stepping stone if they're going to go full Japanese later.

[PaulDWeiss]

Missed this topic the first time around. (It's interesting how apparently dead topics come to life again.) Anyhow, the original story reminded me about one I'll bring you from the motorcycle world. (That's another passion of mine, and a much older one for me, having bought my first bike back in 1963.) Anyway, the story is from a guy I've bought both a Honda and a BMW from, over the years. 25 years ago or so, he sold Hardly Ablesons. One day, a retired California motorcycle cop came into the shop, and bought an HD for cash. After the bike was prepped, he asked the shop staff to roll it into the parking lot. He then proceeded to straighten the bike up, and to drop it over onto its right side. He asked the shop guys to pick it up for him. He then proceeded to straighten the bike up, fold the sidestand, and drop the bike onto its left side. He asked the shop guys to pick it up for him again, said "Well, now that's over with," got into the saddle, and drove away.

Paul