Le Bernardin

[winemike]

To me it seems like LB is trying to maximize its profits by booking to many seating and simply failed in the service aspect.

Exactly the problem. Thanks for putting it that clearly.

3 servings + maximum number of tables in the room ->

seeing so many waiters around - running - makes you dizzy. Or at least, stressed me.

And of course, implies that sometimes, service screws up, especially for the late serving

... which is unfortunately what happened to me...

Now, I must say that I am not used to dine in NY and that I'm more familiar with how

diners are treated in France. Of course, you got the problem of the bloody arrogant

French waiters there

But maybe this extra parameter emphasised the negative vibe ?

Many of you have got an amazing knowledge of France, would you think the cultural difference

has played a bigger role than I thought ?? (I thought not...)

[Scott]

I've always been amused by the philosophy of cooking at Le Bernardin.  As I recall it was something to the effect that they believe in letting the delicate flavor of fresh seafood come through without overpowering the dish with overly assertive sauces spices or preparation.  Well fine, you serve me a simple seafood dish without a lot of distracting sauces or seasoning, then charge me $40 for the plate?

Sorry, but when I am dropping $150 on a meal I expect you guys to be back in that kitchen breaking a sweat and rattling those pots and pans.

Also I found the austere, cavernous cafeteria-esque dining room to be a put-off too.

This is much closer ot my experience.

I left plenty disappointed. The cooking was not exceptional, and was frankly a little underwhelming. I hated the room, though being in what must have been the worst table in the house couldn't have hurt.

my starter is one the worst haute cuisine dishes I have ever been served. It wasn't flawed or actually badly prepared it was just so ill conceived.

Foie gras ravioli in foie and black truffle sauce. It was too rich and it was unbalanced. it was just piling on luxury ingredient after luxury ingredient, it was not a 'whole' or complete dish - rather than being artistic it was a finger painting. the ravioli itself was seriously undercooked - nb. not al dente, far from it. I wouldn't have minded but it was virtually assailed upon me by the waiter, i just had to have it. The atlantic bass with orange and ginger asian broth was technically a finely prepared dish but a little bland.

the wine list was vastly overpriced.

service? we'd have had more luck spotting the lochness monster than our waiter.

But what made it worse? it was below freezing outside, with enough windchill to create the original brass monkey, and they refused to order us a cab at the end of the meal. No sorry sir, we can not, suggest you try to hail one in the street. Mild protestation, followed by complete dismissal, I would have made a scene, but I was in shock. thinking back I still am.

In no way a bad restaurant, and albeit based on one meal only, in no way an exceptional one either.

Edited March 2, 2004 by Scott (log)

[Bux]

Can one call a cab in NYC? I did it once in 1973. I haven't done it since. Can one still do that. I looked for taxi companies in the yellow pages, but it seemed that all I found were car services, liveries and limousine services listed under "taxis." If it can be done, it seems to be unusual. NYC is a peculiar place that way.

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

[Bux]

winemike, I think I understood your points fairly well. My comment about the extensive red wine list was in support of your shock at the waiter's comment regarding wine choices. It was years ago, but I recall having a tasting menu there. One of our party knew Eric Ripert and was very close friends with a chef friend of Ripert's. We were treated well, although I don't mean to imply I have ever not been treated well there, both before and after Ripert took the helm. As we approached the final savory course, we also ran out of wine. The sommelier countered our choice of wines with the suggestion that the next course would go well with a red wine. Actually, it could have gone with either a choice of red or whites, but following our other wines, red was really the better choice for contrast.

My bouillabaise comment was just a comment at large and not a criticism. I also sensed that you enjoyed most of your meal very much and that with better, or should I say proper, service, you would have come away pleased. I don't know how close the tables are these days. We travel a bit and use most of our discretionary funds to dine when we are traveling, although le Bernardin has been on our short list for a return visit for some time. I have good memories of it.

[Scott]

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.

heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.

this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Yes, a high end end gastro temple does need to show creativity, technique, and sympathy for the produce.

Also Bux you are fundamentally wrong if you state it requires greater talent and technique to present a simply prepared fish. It might to some require greater empathy of produce, but this isn't rocket science - and if you're not providing rocket science do not claim to be NASA. which is my beef, pardon the pun, I did not feel it lived up to it's reputation.

I would not accept this meal at Le Divellac and wouldn't be expected to either.

[jogoode]

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.

heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.

this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Scott, sorry if I'm not understanding you, but Bux tried to emphasize that Le Bernardin is NOT a simple seafood place that, as you say, "rings the best wholesaler in town." Further, that list bit trivializes, in my opinion, the task of the chef's developing relationships with fisherman and wholesalers. As far as I know, Esca, for ex, serves very simple seafood, but if you think that all Pasternack is doing is calling a wholesaler and ordering some fish, you are way off.

Secondly, I do believe you're experience at Le Bernardin was underwhelming. I don't think anyone is doubting that. But I would recommend returning, despite the expense -- maybe for lunch. The barely cooked salmon at LB, and the bass in peking duck bullion, are dishes I'll remember for a very long time.

[Fat Guy]

Le Bernardin's menu runs the gamut from minimalist presentions to intricate creations, and from "Almost Raw" to heavily reduced and extracted. It would be a mistake to characterize it as focused on one of those styles -- http://le-bernardin.com/menu_dinner.html

The restaurant has perhaps the most versatile seafood kitchen in America. It takes a few meals there to find the parts of the rather large menu that match one's preferences, but I don't recall ever having a bad dish there.

[Scott]

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.

heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.

this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity.  I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Scott, sorry if I'm not understanding you, but Bux tried to emphasize that Le Bernardin is NOT a simple seafood place that, as you say, "rings the best wholesaler in town." Further, that list bit trivializes, in my opinion, the task of the chef's developing relationships with fisherman and wholesalers. As far as I know, Esca, for ex, serves very simple seafood, but if you think that all Pasternack is doing is calling a wholesaler and ordering some fish, you are way off.

Secondly, I do believe you're experience at Le Bernardin was underwhelming. I don't think anyone is doubting that. But I would recommend returning, despite the expense -- maybe for lunch. The barely cooked salmon at LB, and the bass in peking duck bullion, are dishes I'll remember for a very long time.

Jo,

You may very well be right. If I am honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to come, as It would be hard pressed to have gained it's reputation on that one night.

I probably am trivialising the relationships between restauranteur and supplier, and If so it's because I understand how hard and important it is to do so. I do in turn get snuffy if the suggestion is that this is all that's required. Maybe I have misunderstood the premise here.

Neil Perry at Rockpool in sydney is obsessive about his fish sourcing, to the extent a large amount of his fish is sourced of the frozen waters off Japan, where specialist trawlers immediately 'brain spike' the catch to induce rigamortis. It is then flown in to Sydney.

I don't know anyone who goes further, but I still find the restaurant itself variable. I think at times, they over-egg the pudding. regardless, I wouldn't go to a seafood restaurant of the highest order to marvel at their produce, that's a given - now elevate it.

Given their status I just didn't see enough attempt to elevate the produce at Le Bernadin to something even greater still. Though as I have said I appreciate the imperfect nature of conclusions formed on one visit.

[robyn]

But if they can't make it, they should just have two servings. I will not go back there for

any serving now. Early, "normal" or late ...

Le B apparently isn't the only restaurant with this problem. I recalled this article from the Wall Street Journal:

Fast Food Meets Pricey Spots As Restaurants End Lingering

June 21, 2002, The Wall Street Journal, 2117 words

Janet Kleinman recently spent $400 at New York restaurant Cello, feasting on lobster and foie-gras risotto -- and left with a sour taste in her mouth. The waiters, she says, hustled her family out in ...

PURCHASE THE FULL ARTICLE FOR ONLY $2.95*

I ate at one of the restaurants mentioned in the article - not Cello (before I read the article). The restaurant clearly didn't want us to take more than 5 minutes to order - and it delivered our main course before we had finished our appetizer! Needless to say - I won't be returning to that restaurant. Robyn

[JMayer]

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

Is it me BUX or are you contradicting yourself in this post? Does LB serve simple fish or not? And what are these other "fish houses" you speak of (are they the ones preparing complex seafood or are they simply preparing seafood)? Most seafood type places I have went to (i.e) Joe's Stone crab, Shaw's etc...serve their fish unsauced much like a traditional steak house. The emphasis at these places is the seafood, and little else; the side dishes are simple and the atmosphere is simple However, these places do not serve haute cuisine (which is what makes LB unique in my opinion). Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

Thanks,

Justin

Edited March 4, 2004 by JMayer (log)

[Bux]

Justin,

I thought I was clear, but perhaps not. Le Bernardin serves haute cuisine preparations of great sophistication. I hate to use that word as it implies that there's something unsophisticated about simply prepared fresh fish, but I trust people understand what I mean. Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't.

Perhaps I should have written "never" rather than "ever," or "le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense of those which serve simple unsauced seafood." My sentence was sloppy, but I think everyone knows what kind of place le Bernardin is. Apologies for any misunderstanding. Le Bernardin is anything but the seafood equivalent of Peter Lugar.

[Bux]

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.

heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.

this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Yes, a high end end gastro temple does need to show creativity, technique, and sympathy for the produce.

Also Bux you are fundamentally wrong if you state it requires greater talent and technique to present a simply prepared fish. It might to some require greater empathy of produce, but this isn't rocket science - and if you're not providing rocket science do not claim to be NASA. which is my beef, pardon the pun, I did not feel it lived up to it's reputation.

I would not accept this meal at Le Divellac and wouldn't be expected to either.

I'm uneasy with your reply as I didn't criticize anything you wrote. I was quite critical of the post you chose to quote to open your post.

[As a New Yorker I'm delighted to see "well sourced fish" in a thread that also mentions "well sauced fish," by the way. I shall always think of le Bernardin as a place where the fish are "well sawced" or something like that.]

Whatever you've heard before, isn't what I said in my post. I did not eat your meal and can't comment on what you ate. It may well have been underwhelming and lacking in creativity. I have not always found le Bernardin to be the most creative restaurant. I've not been there in a while. I value creativity very much, but there's more to haute cuisine than creativity and I value traditional food that's well cooked to "in your face creativity" at the hands of a chef and kitchen brigade that is lacking in technical ability and experience. For all my shlepping out to eat chez Gagnaire or Adria, I am the kind of guy, as I mentioned somewhere recently on the site, who gets sent pork belly or tete de veau from the kitchen when I eat off the menu. I go back to my point and that is that you picked a poor quotation to lead into your message as it did not lend credibility to your post. That quote was of someone who apparently didn't understand what le Bernardin was about on a good day.

And you sir, are fundamentally wrong if you think I said what you think I said. Seriously, there was a misunderstanding and maybe I cleared it up in my reply to Justin and maybe JJ's already done some work on that score. If I have had a weakness in my appreciation for food, it's that I've valued the work in the kitchen over the raw product in my time. I have never been a fan of the American steak house or the American fish house. Oddly enough travel in Spain, in search of the most creative kichen handiwork, has also given me great insight into the appreciation of simple seafood and roast meat. I am less likely to dismiss simple cooking that I used to be, but yes, at le Bernardin one expects the finest seafood available in NY plus the greatest skill and saucing where appropriate. An oyster needs nothing more than a bit of lemon juice and a grind of pepper--but I wouldn't go to le Bernardin for oysters. If they didn't elevate the product in your eyes (or mouth) you have a right to be disappointed.

[JMayer]

Thanks BUX, I understand what you mean now. I just got confused with the wording a little bit, but now that I went back and read your posts they make sense. I like what you have to say. Thanks for the informative responses.

Cheers,

Justin

Edited March 4, 2004 by JMayer (log)

[winemike]

Following my disappointing experience at Le Bernardin, I have sent a letter to the owners of the place explaining why I was not satisfied with my dinner there (the waiter's attitude being a big part of the problem).

I have left my e-mail, phone numbers and, of course, address and almost 3 months later, I still have not heard anything from them. No mail, no call, no e-mail.

It seems like they really don't care about their customer's comments ...

[robert40]

Michael Laiskonis is the new pastry chef.

Link. Scroll down.

http://andreastrong.com/brain/brain_view_brain.php

Good luck with your new position Michael.

[Andy Lynes]

Le Bernardin's menu runs the gamut from minimalist presentions to intricate creations, and from "Almost Raw" to heavily reduced and extracted.

←

Reading down the menu headings on the website from "Almost Raw", "Barely Touched" and "Lightly Cooked", I was disappointed not to see a final section titled "Really messed about with in a highly intrusive manner."

[flinflon28]

My birthday is in December and my girlfriend has asked if I would like to go to Le Bernadain to celebrate. We are in our mid twenties and have been on a gourmet "gorging" as of late because I am starting culinary school in January. This year we have hit Daniel, Balthazar, wd-50, 4 Seasons, Pace, Peter Lugers, Blue Hill, and Emeril's in Orlando.

I have loved each of these places for different reasons but feel the food at Daniel has been tops so far. I also liked the fact that it was a formal experience but all the patrons looked like they were having a good time. I hear dining at Le Bernadain is a fishlovers nirvana but have also heard that the environment is a bit tomblike and that diners tend to act like they're in a library.

We are not in the least bit raucous but definitely want to feel comfortable and smile through the meal. Any thoughts or recent experiences you'd like to share?

[jogoode]

I hear dining at Le Bernadain is a fishlovers nirvana but have also heard that the environment is a bit tomblike and that diners tend to act like they're in a library.

We are not in the least bit raucous but definitely want to feel comfortable and smile through the meal.  Any thoughts or recent experiences you'd like to share?

←

Hi flinflon28,

I'm about your age and I've found the atmosphere at Le Bernardin to be a bit "tomblike" (very apt!). It is not a high-energy room, for sure, and the chairs are so big that when I've eaten there I've felt like a kid at the grown-ups' table. But once the salmon rilletes hit the table, you forget that you're the only one there under 50. Some still call Ripert the best chef in the city -- where did I hear that recently? -- and I have found his food to be excellent. So, go.

And Michael Laiskonis, who used to host eG's Pastry and Baking forum, is the new pastry chef! I'd love to check out his desserts.

[flinflon28]

Thanks so much for your imput! Don't you all find it difficult to pick a place to dine when someone ELSE is paying? I feel like it's Sophie's Choice for a meal!

[Suzanne F]

I'm about your age and I've found the atmosphere at Le Bernardin to be a bit "tomblike" (very apt!). It is not a high-energy room, for sure, and the chairs are so big that when I've eaten there I've felt like a kid at the grown-ups' table.

←

JJ-- that's because you ARE the size of a skinny kid!

flinflon-- nothing new to add on leB, since I haven't eaten there in a few years. But I did my externship there (1996). Besides being a fabulous place to learn, it has always seemed one of the most civilized places to eat. Meaning that they are gracious to all who are there to enjoy the experience.

[32rueduVertbois]

I had lunch at Le Bernardin about two weeks ago. Disappointing. The room is nice enough but has no real style or character. The menu was dull. I found myself searching for something that sounded special rather than struggling to choose among several enticing offerings. The monkfish, which I ordered at my host's suggestion, was dull too, in both taste and appearance. The tuna paillard appetizer, however, was very nice, and the service was fine.

It was just one meal, but my impression was that Le B has become a tired restaurant that is not really in the game anymore. For fish, I would choose Aquagrill, though I have not been there in a while. For haute cuisine, La Grenouille, Ducasse, and Jean Georges are all better.

[Pan]

I remember that their desserts were terrific, though it's been a few years. And of course, Michael Laiskonis is now the Pastry Chef there. Did you get any dessert when you were there?

[silentryan]

I'm coming down to NYC in March, and I'm trying to decide what my first 4-star dining experience should be. Since I'm living on the somewhat meager budget of a graduate student, I think ADNY and Per Se fall outside of my price range, so it's between Le Bernardin, Jean Georges, and Daniel. I'm also an aspiring seafood chef, so part of me feels like I ought to try Le Bernardin, but from what I've read on the forums, there seems to be a general consensus that this would be the least fulifilling of the three in terms of overall experience. I would feel especially bad if I went to Le Bernardin and this was the case, since I'm bringing friends that want to try 4-star dining, but aren't necessarily so partial to seafood. Any suggestions for me?

[chefseanbrock]

i had lunch in august and it was one of the best dining experiences of my life.....

the fluke dish served with a progression of flavors was one of the best dishes i have ever experienced>>>>>>>>

[docsconz]

Of the three my best memories are from Le Bernardin, although it has been awhile.