The Seattle scene

[mamster]

Over on that Herbfarm thread, there was some discussion about how the food at the Herbfarm compares with top restaurants nationwide and beyond. tighe argued that Traunfeld's cooking is, in its own way, truly world-class.

Let's broaden that discussion to top Seattle restaurants in general: in terms of service, decor, and above all food, how do they measure up to the best that Vancouver, Portland, New York, and other cities near and far have to offer?

I have a strong opinion on this matter, but it's largely uninformed. I've eaten in maybe half a dozen "name restaurants" in town and almost always come away unimpressed. I'll give an easy example, easy because the place is closed. A couple of years ago I had a birthday meal at Saleh al Lago, a place locals seemed to adore, and I went with my whole family on the strength of these testimonials. The food wasn't actively bad, but it was crushingly mediocre--boring, in fact. Sure, it could have been an off night, but nothing suggested that: the service was fine and people around us seemed to be enjoying their meals. (Incidentally, my parents have since had several meals at Nell's, in the same location and retaining some of the same staff, and report that it's much better.) I've had similar experiences with restaurants that are still open, but because my feelings are based on single meals taken over a year ago, I don't want to name names. If I revisit them, you'll hear about it.

On name we've named is Cascadia. Clearly it's possible to have a good meal there--I trust Laurie's judgment, bien sûr--but I trust nightscotsman's judgment too, and his criticisms track those of some of the posts on Chowhound and Citysearch. Cascadia holds itself out as among the best Seattle has to offer (3.5 stars from the Seattle Times), but it's possible to go there and pay big bucks for an underwhelming, underflavored meal.

At the same time, I've had dynamite meals (and reports from people I trust) in Vancouver and Portland, and plenty in New York as well.

Who here has made the comparison and wants to back up my impression or blow it away? I'm particularly curious about Rover's, as it's the only other place in Seattle besides the Herbfarm that trades on a national reputation. How does it measure up? Portlanders, I want to hear from you, too: are your local heroes as good as they should be? (Laurie and I are going to Genoa this month; I can't wait to see how it lives up to the hype.)

If you agree with me about the state of Seattle, what's the problem? Are local critics not tough enough? Are our tastebuds dulled by too much coffee? Why are our neighboring cities eating us for lunch?

[Fat Guy]

One thing that's interesting about the Herbfarm and Rover's is that they both offer set menus only. What's up with that? Unlike our esteemed Robert Brown, I don't find set menus entirely objectionable, but it certainly is unusual to find them as the only option at a high-end restaurant.

[tighe]

OK, so now I've let this rattle around my head for a while, I may have a cogent answer, but don't count on it. I've had to surgically remove my insecure reactionary native Seattleite, "we're as good as any place else!" reflex, especially since mb70 blew our cover in another thread.

Like mamster, I've definately had my share of disapointing experiences in places that were supposed to be the next great thing in Seattle. However I've had equally disappointing experiences elsewhere in restaurants that had been elevated to the level of divine. Babbo in NYC stands out particularly for me. If you are comparing Seattle's entries into the category of haute cuisine, chic, big-name chef, all-beautiful all the time type places, there is absolutely no comparison. None of the places I've been in Seattle that try to play at that level are in the same ballpark as some places I've been to in SF, NYC and Boston. The food just doesn't have the level of complexity or creativity that you see elsewhere. Another area where Seattle restaurants are significantly lacking, and I would say this is accross the board, is in quality of service. In larger cities there is a level of professionalism in the service that you virtually never encounter here. Probably in part because there are almost no truly professional servers in this city. I think there might be some hope for us on this front. About three years ago, I was in SF and picked up a local food magazine. One of their writers had an article about her recent visit to Seattle. She said that the Seattle restaurant scene reminded her SF about 10 years earlier, so we only have 7 more years to go!

Now, I would counter this argument with the fact that I think Seattle's dining scene is particularly strong in terms of what I would broadly term as neighborhood restaurants. Granted that some of the places that I'm thinking of draw customers widely, but they are, at least environmentally, closely tied to their specific location. The fact that if I were make a list of places I would reccomend to visitors, I would probably have to get down to at least #10 before hitting a downtown spot is evidence of where this market's strength lies, at least according to my palate. Maybe others that are more intimately familiar with other cities can comment on comparitive situations, but I know that in Boston for example, the advent of high quality neighborhood restaurants is a pretty recent phenomena.

Edit:

Rereading my ramblings now, I see that I basically whiffed on actually offering any answer to the question that was posed. Good thing I don't have to write for a living like mamster, I'd starve.

Why is Seattle the way it is....hmmm...whether you want to blame it on bad critics, provincialism or simply an inexperienced dining public, it seems to me that the answer is a lack of expectations. If its never been demonstrated to you what truly exquisite food tastes like, how can you know that what you're eating now doesn't qualify?

I wish I had enough experience eating in Vancouver and Portland to compare them to Seattle, but I too have heard that they offer better depth of dining quality than Seattle. My caveat there is that one of my most disappointing dining experiences took place near Portland, in the Willamette Valley. My wife and I went down there for a long weekend and had read about the Joel Palmer House in probably 3 national and regional food mags. These write-ups made the place out to be mushroom nirvana, but the quality of the dinner barely rose to mediocre and didn't compare to some much-less hyped places in the area.

[nightscotsman]

I also wanted to think a bit about this topic before posting a response. Either that or wait for someone more eloquent that I to say everything for me (thanks tighe ).

I especially agree about the level of service. Except for a very few places (like Canlis), it seems like Seattle diners prefer the chummy-but-sloppy, overly-friendly style of service over professionalism. Maybe it's that whole discomfort with formality thing that causes people to think it's OK to wear polarfleece and hiking boots to the opera. Some might call it being unpretentious, but I think it's just immaturity.

There's a great word. That pretty much sums up my impression of the Seattle dining scene: immature.

I also agree there are some really good neighborhood places, but I sure would like to see a few more at the high end that might be worthy of two or three stars - if for no other reason than to boost the ol' civic pride.

[nightscotsman]

Oh, and since we now have good bread in this town, can we please have a decent, european-style pastry shop? Thanks.

[Fat Guy]

Tighe, have you started a thread on the Palmer House? I was there and thought it was quite good. If you have a good enough recollection, and you've never posted about this before, go ahead and start a new thread. Ditto for all these restaurants everybody mentions in passing. I could actually jump onto a few.

Also, I promise, if you had a bad meal at Babbo it was an off night.

[mamster]

Maybe tighe's meal at Babbo was on a night when that clumsy New Yorker writer was puttering around in the kitchen. nightscotsman, boy are you right about a European patisserie, although I'd argue that the Dahlia Bakery is a very good American bakery.

The ubiquity of good bread seems like an auspicious sign.

I agree with those arguing that our neighborhood restaurants help make it worth living here. If we didn't have more than our share of good ones, I would have quit the Neighborhood Deals beat in disgust a long time ago. It would be so nice to have a place like the Madrona Eatery on my street--they have great salads, and the flank steak entree I had last time was inexpensive, perfectly cooked, and on a plate with some good starch and veggies. Their burgers and pizza were kind of weak, but most of the time, at least, you got the sense that the cook was asking, "Is this the best possible food that could be leaving my kitchen?" and answering with an honest yes.

[tighe]

Tighe, have you started a thread on the Palmer House? I was there and thought it was quite good. If you have a good enough recollection, and you've never posted about this before, go ahead and start a new thread. Ditto for all these restaurants everybody mentions in passing. I could actually jump onto a few.

Also, I promise, if you had a bad meal at Babbo it was an off night.

My meal at the JPH was a few years back and I've forgotten most of the details, so if I started a thread it would probably sound like a lot of non-specific whinging. I do recall an undercooked portobello with swiss cheese melted over it and thinking that I was entirely capable of doing that at home.

As far as Babbo, I would hesitate to call it definitively bad. My wife's entree was bad, mine was merely ordinary, but not offensive. Our starters were actually quite good. Given all the fabulous places in NYC that I haven't been to yet, the chances of giving Babbo another shot are slim I'm afraid.

I second the bread discussion. I would say that Seattle is "world-class" in that arena at least. I rarely find better bread when I travel that most of what we get here.

[Blue Heron]

I second the bread discussion.  I would say that Seattle is "world-class" in that arena at least.  I rarely find better bread when I travel that most of what we get here.

Yes, three cheers for Seattle bread!

Can you even imagine the sorry state our bread would be in if Grand Central Bakery had not set the standard, what... maybe 10-12 years ago? It's only gotten better and better with all the additional bakeries that have followed suit.

I will also say that the Dahlia makes a very delicious crusty house bread that can stand up to any bread in Seattle . However, it seems like he (Tom Douglas) needs to get off his book tours and travelling, etc. and get back in the kitchens of his restaurants, and work on his food again, eh?

[tsquare]

What type of pastry shop is it we are talking about? There are a number of places for fine pastry:

Cafe Besalu in Ballard - croissant/brioche/fruit tarts

Le Fournil on Eastlake - same plus fancy cake type things

Le Pain du Four in Belltown - bread and croissant

Essential Bakery in Wallingford - no longer just bread - some remarkable pastry and cakes/cookies

Hoffman's in Kirkland - Austrian?

Dahlia's

Le Painier in the Market

No doubt I've forgotten some.

[Schielke]

Where in Kirkland is Hoffmans? I am new to the eastside and would love to know where to get some decent pastries.

Thanks a bunch.

Ben

[nightscotsman]

Le Fournil on Eastlake - same plus fancy cake type things

Le Fournil used to be close to what I mean by a "good european-style pastry shop", but their quality has really gone down lately. A couple things I got there recently were pretty much inedible. Most of the other places you mentioned have a very limited product line geared mainly to breakfast-type pastry (I would rank the Essential Bakery in Wallingford highly here).

I'm talking about a patisserie that would be up to the standards of a good neighborhood shop in Paris or Vienna. They should have a mix of croisants, puff-based pastries, cakes (multi- and single-serving), mousses, tarts (sweet and savory), custardy things, and cookies all made from scratch with the best incredients, refined and elegant rather than rustic and homey. A line of house-made chocolates would also be nice, but that may be asking too much. Closer to home, I think that "Senses" in Vancouver hits the mark.

Can you even imagine the sorry state our bread would be in if Grand Central Bakery had not set the standard, what... maybe 10-12 years ago? It's only gotten better and better with all the additional bakeries that have followed suit.

I would also credit the cooking school at Seattle Central Community College for emphasizing artisan breads in their pastry program. You can purchase their products at a pastry case inside the school at rediculously low prices - if you can get there before they sell out.

[tsquare]

Hoffman's in Kirkland - in the shopping center with TGIF? It has been awhile since I looked for it. Not sure if it was all that special, but believe the baker had excellent training.

Essential has moved beyond breakfast. They have beautiful tarts, cakes, cookie - and I recall - a line of house-made chocolates! Lots of seasonal items too.

Thanks for the update on Le Fournil - haven't been there in awhile either, though I continue to hear good reports as well.

Add to the list - Le Boulangerie in Wallingford? Wondering if anyone has been to Animal Espresso? I am guessing that they have some pretty wonderful baked goods, but haven't made it there - south of Capitol Hill, maybe Central District?

[nightscotsman]

Thanks for the tip on Hoffman's - by the way, Google says the address is 226 Park Lane in the Park Place Center shopping center. I'll check it out this evening while I'm over in Kirkland picking up booze on Schielke's advice.

I'll also revisit Essential this weekend and report back.

Oh, the things I do for you guys...

[Johnathon]

Being from Vancouver, I have had the good fortune of dining in neighboring Seattle and Portland a number of times. It is very interesting to read the word immature being attributed to the Seattle dining scene but my personal experiences would bely that thought to the service and front of the house etiquette as opposed to the food. I have had many very good meals in Seattle made less memorable by the service provided. But where does the fault lie? Would it be so difficult to send a general manager and a sommelier to a restaurant well known for it's service and front of the house staff? Has no restaurant owner ever heard of Charlie Trotter's book on Service?

In my mind the fault lies in the management of the restaurant for not raising the level of the client education factor. Show the client what service is supposed to be like and they will always appreciate the extra attention given to even the slightest of details. From there the general diner has an expectation which must be met by the restaurant to have the guest return. "The food is good, but the waiter was an..." I have heard this too many times for comfort, and worse, I have experienced the same frustration.

Food critics will always criticize. And diners will always eat. I have seen rave reviews for bad restaurants which are empty almost every day. And I have seen restaurants packed every day regardless of the critics summation. One meal does not make a restaurant and neither does one bad experience with the staff.

I may be off the mark here, but I would warrant that service (or lack thereof) is rarely pointed out in any way other than the size of the tip.

Example:

Babbo NYC, I must agree with The Fat Guy here, any medoicre meal was an off night. They set a bar for food and service that is rarely met so consistently. I took the time to tell the on shift manager and Mario Batalli himself (who was lounging outside with a glass of wine) what I thought of the food and service.

DB Bistro NYC, food was good but definitely not stellar. The waiter was one of the worst I have yet to experience, typifying everyone's worst nightmare of the stereotypical horrible French waiter. I took the time to tip in cash to the bus boys and the hostess while walking with the manager. As I was leaving, I told the manager that there was no tip on the bill for the waiter bacause of his service but felt that everyone else should not suffer from their share in the tip pool because of this fool.

Extreme? Yes. I later learned that this was echoed by a number of other diners and that "steps were taken" to prevent such an occurance from happening again.

The point? I probably do not really have one other than we cannot lay blame on anything later on if we are unwilling to share our thoughts at the time.

[girl chow]

Did any of you live here 10 years ago? Even 5 years ago?

If you did, then perhaps you're sitting here reading this thread with a smirk like I am. Seattle and Eastside restaurants have come such a long way in a very short amount of time. It's embarassing, I think, to see the snippy criticisms of such a fledgling industry. Nightscotsman makes an excellent point that the scene is most definitely immature (although I would have phrased it differently)... but at least it's a developing landscape out there... I can only imagine some food lovin' poster from some Midwestern town getting pissed to read that we're criticizing a restaurant scene that offers really top-notch places like The Flying Fish, Brasa, Cascadia, Waterfront ......and no fewer than 50 different family-owned Thai restaurants in the greater Seattle area. We have choices. We have great restaurants. World class competition for New York or London? Probably not even close, but it's getting better.

Areas where we are close to world class: neighborhood finds, ethnic eateries and exquisite seafood.

So I guess what I'm saying is kwityerbitchin. What we've got is good and getting better. Geesh.

[Johnathon]

Lived there? No. Visited countless times for over twenty years? Yes.

Could not agree with you more that is a growing dining environment. Fledgling? Far from it. There are fantastic spaces and tastes in Seattle (one of the many reasons why I keep going back).

Remarks were made which echo yours, albeit not as pointedly. As anything is in the state of growth, there has to be a certain amount of attention given to the art of listening and sharing of thoughts. This is not bitching. This is constructive criticism and pats on the back for areas of concern and delight. Any and all of this will always be subjective to the individual palate and dining experience.

What is world class anyways? In my mind you are speaking the likes of Alain Ducasse, Charlie Trotter and Thomas Keller.

Can anyone really compare with these people and their food? Rarely. But some will and they will take their place. They may already be in Seattle, Vancouver or any other growing city. As we grom we need input. There is no growth without change.

As far as neighborhood finds, ethnic eateries and exquisite seafood are concerned, Seattle ranks very, very high. So does Vancouver, in every respect.

One thing you missed though was the public market in Seattle! Now that is world class in every respect.

[tighe]

Did any of you live here 10 years ago? Even 5 years ago?

Yes, I did! You have a good point gc, but I hope the things I had to say weren't construed as bitching. I was really just trying to respond to the questions that mamster threw on the table.

Overall I'm very happy with the current state of and trajectory of the Seattle restaurant scene. Like most natives, I would hate to simply try to replicate what has been done in other places. A lot of what has evolved here more or less organically, is the best of what we have. I'm sure this evolution will continue and 10 years from now we'll look back and talk about what schlock used to be served at places like Cascadia. Wait a second, some are already doing that I guess....

[girl chow]

Sure there are some established restaurants that have been here for ages (Canlis comes to mind), but the bulk of the restaurant landscape here is really quite young and inexperienced (thus my descriptor of fledgling), especially if you consider that the Belltown explosion didn't begin until late 1995. And that's not a negative thing, it just means the scene here is young, but growing (as I said before).

If you drove down First or Second Avenue in 1993 on a Friday night, the scene would have been completely different. There were few great restaurants and, well, a lot of undesireable people urinating openly on the street. Now, it's a thriving restaurant and retail district (and some might start shouting things about the gentrification of the 'hood, but that's another topic). And that transformation has been all within the last 7 or 8 years, really. And maybe that's why this whole discussion of an immature service climate is ping ponging around in this thread... the industry here is really, really, really young. We don't have the depth or duration of the New York restaurant industry and I think it's unfair to draw a comparison with a town that is known worldwide for its dining culture. Give us another decade and then come back and revisit this discussion. Right now, it's unfair to criticize an industry this young, in my humble opinion. Take that for what it's worth. I'm no restaurant expert, just a restaurant watcher.

[Johnathon]

Very well said. I for one am looking forward to experiencing the continued growth of the Seattle Scene, in whatever guise it may manifest for itself.

Please don't confuse suggestions and comments as criticism. We all learn from input from others, positive and negative. And I must maintain my argument about the status of "fledgling" for Seattle. I travel a lot and Seattle is miles ahead of many large cities for dining and appreciation of fresh local products. If you want fledgling, go to Memphis. It pretty much summates the descriptor of a pre 95' Belltown.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and pride for Seattle within this thread. It exactly this type of open dialogue that creates a great appreciation of comments from those that just plain enjoy good food.

[mb7o]

That was the point I wanted to express on the other thread:

Seattle has many excellent restaurants.

Few are in the 'almost-perfect' category others found in other cities. The most famous places, like Rover's and the Herbfarm, are defended locally even when they have faults. This is an insecure passive-agressive city (hey, I fit in). Very different from, say, Philadelphia, notorious for being overly critical.

Many restaurants feel expensive, in terms of value. Maybe it's from all the taxes and the fact that the server minimum wage is not discounted for 'expected tips'. But it sure doesn't help when you think "I could have cooked that at home", you're paying a lot just to have something cooked and cleaned up for you.

[MsRamsey]

I was afraid that the "kwityerbitchin" comment would really cut this discussion off at the knees. I'm glad to see that it hasn't. I'd like to see people continue to bitch, criticize, and praise to the skies, and everything in between. I'm from the Midwest, but I don't intend to take some Iowan's feelings into account when discussing our restaurant scene.

[nightscotsman]

I want to clarify my "immature" statement above after reading the latest posts. I was referring mostly to the front of house experience with this label, but even more so to the dining public. As evidence I point to the Cheese Factory getting the "best new restaurant" nod in the Weekly with people standing in line to get in, while tables are empty on Saturday night at many of the best independant places. To our credit we have surprisingly few of these chain places in the inner city. I think that alone gives us an advantage.

Is it fair to compare Seattle restaurants to those in New York? Not really, but if I were a restaurant owner and/or chef that is the level I would want to aspire to, so the comparison might be useful. On the other hand, I do think it's entirely fair to compare our scene to Vancouver, and in that case I think Seattle is a little lacking in both front of house service and culinary creativity.

Many restaurants feel expensive, in terms of value.

I think I agree with this. It seems like we get charged top-level prices for an experience that would be closer to mid-range in San Francisco or Chicago.

[col klink]

Recently, in Minnesota, I was discussing the Seattle scene with some locals and their friends. The host mentioned going to Singapore and being absolutely dazzled by the restaurants. I mentioned that though Seattle has some fantastic places, it doesn't hold a candle to say, Vancouver and other larger cities. At which point one person said: "Fuck you. I live in bumfuck North Dakota. We don't have shit for restaurants."

Touche.

I can't imagine living in the sticks, unless I'm raising goats, pigs, sheep and lamb for bbq. I can easily see myself raising livestock if I can eats 'em!

[girl chow]

Yes, by all means, bring on the discussion.

Maybe I shouldn't have posted that shitty little remark about bitching, but I'm coming from a seriously defensive place at this moment after reading these posts. I really have felt an underlying current of attack on our culture here. When I read criticism ranging from our dress at the opera to our preference for "chummy-but-sloppy, over-friendly style of service over professionalism," well dammit I take offense. If you want that level of elitism, you go to New York. In Seattle, that style of service won't fly (at least not now). I think the scene is progressing nicely and I'd hate to see -- really -- a trend toward a more stuffy, pretentious style of dining because I just don't WANT that to fly here. I like that our fine dining establishments are accessible to people from all economic spectrums and one wouldn't feel that showing up at Cascadia or Kaspar's or Rover's wearing dockers and a polo shirt would get them kicked out of a restaurant... while I know on the East Coast that underdressed diners are turned away with a scoff.

I rather prefer our style of doing things here. I like walking down the street and not knowing if that guy in the Levi's is a dot com billionaire or a dude on his way to his job at a warehouse. That's what I love about the Northwest, we're more accepting here and perhaps not so quick to judge on appearance.

And let me talk about fine dining service and what my expectations are for those restaurant owners who may be lurking out there ...

I don't care much if the waiter folds my napkin while I visit the restroom, but it's a nice touch. I don't expect that they'll wipe the crumbs from my table between courses, but I'd love it if they would (although I wouldn't be offended if they didn't). What I do really appreciate is this: a server who brings my drink within a reasonable time frame, a check back after the entrees are delivered and removal of dishes promptly after a course is completed. A chilled plate for my salad is always greatly appreciated.

What I think is unacceptable: more reservation policies like that of the Herbfarm (ridiculous), dress codes (please, I hope that never flies), automatic gratuities added to a check no matter the party size (silliness) and servers who constantly interrupt the table conversation. Rude.