Buying Wine on 'Futures'

[Swicks]

Hey all,

I will try and give you as much info as possible and limit my questions to specific things because I know this is a very broad field.

Backstory.... a close friend of mine was recently telling me about some Bordeaux futures he had bought and while I was familiar with this practice I hadn't gotten into it with too much depth until recently. I am a definite newbie to French wine and have only in the last 6 months really set out to learn more about it, my passion for wine really has only come into its own the last three years and up to this point my focus has been California reds, Pinot Noir first, then moved into Zin, and lately into both CA Syrah and Australian Shiraz.

At this point my experience has been limited to some French Reds from the Southern Rhone region, Cote du Rhone, Chateauneuf du Pape, Cote Rotie specifically, and most have been recent vintages, nothing very old. Additionally I had a decent glass of Bordeaux a few weeks ago which was my first experience with this style.

A few questions...

-How do you all feel generally about wine futures? Taking into account that my personal goals are just to learn more about French wine and perhaps get in on some good vintages at reasonable prices. I am aware this isn't something to make money on.

-Are futures done typically just with Bordeaux wines or are all types typically offered?

-Can you all recommend any sources for information on finding some good wines to look at? Are there any specific labels or vintners that would be good to look at for someone new to this?

Obviously I know palates and tastes are extremely individual so what you all like may not necessarily be something I like....with that being said I am very open to a variety of things on the red side and always looking to try something new.

Thanks for you help.

Cheers!

[dinwiddie]

I wouldn't buy futures unless it was a wine that you did not think you would be able to buy at a reasonable (meaning reasonable for the wine in relation to others in its class) price due to high demand or scarcity. There are plenty of great French wines that are easily purchased in good shops. It makes sense to buy futures of wines that will be much more expensive when they are finally released, or to get a wine that is so well regarded that it is impossible to buy in a shop, but otherwise, get more familiar with wines first.

[melkor]

For the most part, buying on futures is limited to Bordeaux. It offers two advantages over traditional channels - you can specify how the wine is bottled (anywhere from 375s to 6liter or larger bottles) and you guarantee access to the wine. Futures can be a good way to pay less for wine, assuming it isn't available on closeout a few years down the road for less... I buy some futures most years, though I see no reason to buy any 06 Bordeaux futures and the 05 prices have already gone through the roof, so I'd suggest you wait at least another year before you decide to jump in.

[Swicks]

Thanks for the info.

[Rebel Rose]

Swicks, there are plenty of small and new California producers that offer futures buying. If you are new to this kind of investment, I recommend that you experiment with California pinot and Rhone producers first. If you physically visit some of these producers, you can taste the wines in barrel, which is very exciting. Also, there is less likelihood of your middleman-merchant losing his allocation or futures order.

There are plenty of threads on this board about members who paid for Bordeaux or Burgundy futures and their merchant never received the wine (or claimed they didn't.) Years go by . . .

Another advantage to starting with domestic producers is that you will have the opportunity to learn first hand how wines change from their in-barrel profile to their finished and bottled personality.

[JasonZ]

In addition to wines (California and France), there are futures on port, mostly sold in the UK. I had been interested in purchasing some, but have really been unable to find anyone in the US who participated in this market. In the UK, the practice also appears to be dwindling, as most of the bottling is now done in Porto and bulk shipments to the UK for bottling there, have diminshed or ceased.

In two recent visits to Portugal, with visits to the lodges of port producers and distributors in Porto, I was unable to get more information.

If anyone has any information on port futures, I'd love to know more.

Regards,

Jason

[melkor]

In addition to wines (California and France), there are futures on port, mostly sold in the UK. I had been interested in purchasing some, but have really been unable to find anyone in the US who participated in this market. In the UK, the practice also appears to be dwindling, as most of the bottling is now done in Porto and bulk shipments to the UK for bottling there, have diminshed or ceased.

In two recent visits to Portugal, with visits to the lodges of port producers and distributors in Porto, I was unable to get more information.

If anyone has any information on port futures, I'd love to know more.

Regards,

Jason

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Port is frequently cheaper after it's released than it is on futures.

[melkor]

Swicks, there are plenty of small and new California producers that offer futures buying.  If you are new to this kind of investment, I recommend that you experiment with California pinot and Rhone producers first.  If you physically visit some of these producers, you can taste the wines in barrel, which is very exciting.  Also, there is less likelihood of your middleman-merchant losing his allocation or futures order.

There are plenty of threads on this board about members who paid for Bordeaux or Burgundy futures and their merchant never received the wine (or claimed they didn't.)  Years go by . . .

Another advantage to starting with domestic producers is that you will have the opportunity to learn first hand how wines change from their in-barrel profile to their finished and bottled personality.

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Uh. What's the deal with the fear mongering about 'foreign' wine? You posted this complaint about a domestic producer on the parker board a couple of weeks ago:

...now I am experiencing your pain. Your frustration. Your desire to grab the nameless, faceless, voiceless, digitless person that took your order, charged your credit card for overnight delivery, didn't deliver it at all in 3 days, didn't return your phone calls, didn't provide tracking information even after abject, groveling pleading and didn't answer your email.

The reality is that there are bad vendors selling domestic wine as well as imported. There are a handful of domestic producers that sell on futures, most like Phelps do so at a comically small discount from retail. The rest sell through closed mailing lists (Kosta Browne, Harlan, etc). There are examples of good deals to be had buying in advance in California - David Coffarro is one of them. They're out there domestically, but most of the time the only futures worth buying (from a financial standpoint) are red Bordeaux.

[Rebel Rose]

Dave,my 'complaint' was not about a producer. It was a frustrated tongue-in-cheek riff on a store. And I wasn't buying futures, just trying to get a $36 bottle of Copain. Which never materialized, by the way . . .

If you read Swick's first post, he said he has far more experience with other (primarily California and southern Rhone) styles and has only recently begun to taste Bordeaux.

To say that other people are screwups, too, doesn't negate the fact that sometimes futures orders go unfulfilled. That's something that any futures neophyte should be aware of. It's not always the fault of the merchant--as I have already pointed out, sometimes they simply don't get their promised allocations. The buyer invariably gets his money back, but one can expect a long wait.

I still feel the best way to get one's feet wet in a futures market is to learn about wineries and productions close to home, and follow the wine's development from barrel to bottle. There are more than a few wineries offering this option. Some wineries advertise that the option is available on their websites or at events, and some don't, but discreet inquiries will turn up opportunities to purchase.

I agree that domestic futures are not always as great a deal as they initially present themselves to be; but the opportunities are often fun, educational, and cheaper than release price.

I guess one's approach would depend on one's focus: are you interested in the hunt for new productions and the pride of owning something first, or are you interested in saving money on acclaimed selections? There are opportunities either way.

[DaleJ]

At my age I don't buy futures.

[MattJohnson]

At my age I don't buy futures.

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Hah!

I just can't afford that level of wine, and I don't have a place to store it correctly. From what I've seen of futures the last couple of years, they don't exactly seem like bargains.

[melkor]

At my age I don't buy futures.

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Hah!

I just can't afford that level of wine, and I don't have a place to store it correctly. From what I've seen of futures the last couple of years, they don't exactly seem like bargains.

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Futures aren't limited to high-end bottles. A number of the more reasonably priced wines I bought during the 03 futures campaign have moved up in price enough that I wouldn't buy them. 03 Branaire (duluc-ducru) and Pontet Canet both sell for around $80/bottle now, I paid $28 and $40 for them on futures a couple of years ago. 2003 Leoville Barton and Leoville Poyferre are both around $150/bottle now and I paid $58 and $49 on futures. Others like Pipeau, Moulin-Haut-Laroque, Cote de Baleau, and La Tour Carnet are selling for five to ten bucks more than they cost on futures, but La Tour Carnet was the most expensive of that bunch at $20.

The 04 futures haven't gone up as much, but they also haven't all been delivered yet. I only bought one case of 05 Bordeaux and haven't bought any 06 - I'm not happy about being priced out of the market. Hopefully there will be some good sales down the road so I can stock up on the wines I missed.

[MattJohnson]

At my age I don't buy futures.

←

Hah!

I just can't afford that level of wine, and I don't have a place to store it correctly. From what I've seen of futures the last couple of years, they don't exactly seem like bargains.

←

Futures aren't limited to high-end bottles. A number of the more reasonably priced wines I bought during the 03 futures campaign have moved up in price enough that I wouldn't buy them. 03 Branaire (duluc-ducru) and Pontet Canet both sell for around $80/bottle now, I paid $28 and $40 for them on futures a couple of years ago. 2003 Leoville Barton and Leoville Poyferre are both around $150/bottle now and I paid $58 and $49 on futures. Others like Pipeau, Moulin-Haut-Laroque, Cote de Baleau, and La Tour Carnet are selling for five to ten bucks more than they cost on futures, but La Tour Carnet was the most expensive of that bunch at $20.

The 04 futures haven't gone up as much, but they also haven't all been delivered yet. I only bought one case of 05 Bordeaux and haven't bought any 06 - I'm not happy about being priced out of the market. Hopefully there will be some good sales down the road so I can stock up on the wines I missed.

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Huh, well thats good to know. I won't just write them off as too expensive then. Once I have better cellaring options, I'll see what I can find.

[budrichard]

I've been purchasing futures since the 1970 vintage. First you need a reliable wine merchant that will be around to deliver your wine and won't try to increase the price on you at delivery.

Second, you need a long term strategy of what you want to spend and what you want to purchase.

Third you need to peruse the 'Experts' opinions of the vintage, keeping in mind that today's vinification has reduced the variation of vintages but conversley we will probably never again see vintages like 1959 and 1961.

Fourth be prepared for the hype associated with each vintage.

Fifth, if you think that you are going to make money, think again!

That said, I started with 2nd, 3rd growths and have over the years found some non classified Bordeaux available that I like. Chateau Gloria is one of my favorites and the cost is not prohibitive. I only chose the 'best?' years figuring that the lessor years will go unpurchased and probably available for less at delivery.

I purchased two cases of 2001 Sauterne futures from Sams in Chicago based on vintage reports and by the time of delivery, the price had doubled. Sam's delivered as they have for all the futures i have purchased from them. One defunct merchant held me up for a few $'s because of currency fluctuations and since the wine had esculated in price so much, it was still a good deal but no more futures from that dealer.

All in all, I find it enjoyable and the investigation and expectation 50% of the total enjoyment.

Have fun!-Dick