"Asian Dining Rules" -- Fat Guy's new book

[Fat Guy]

I can't imagine it would ever be a blunder to say a few polite Japanese words and phrases to a Japanese-restaurant employee, even if that employee is a 7' tall and black. Seems to me it's always polite, always a sign of respect, always appropriate. But if you're afraid you might insult a Japanese-restaurant employee by saying "domo arigato," you can always just ask, "So, where are you from?"

[annecros]

I've found that when dealing with other people who have a different cultural background than I do - that they are generally nice and understanding. In fact, human nature has at the very core a bit of patience built in that skeptics wish to deny.

I have always been treated warmly when using clumsy Spanish, and goodness forbid French or Haitian Creole.

As long as it is presented with respect, my silly optimist personality perceives that I get respect in return for my efforts.

My German husband loves it! He hugs me warmly and corrects my pronunciation, patting me on my little pointy head. In fact, I may be so goofy with my German, that I am cute. Not sure yet.

The dignity and grace that is inherent in any Asian culture, would lead me to believe that they would understand and appreciate the effort. I would respectfully, with all good intentions, and a sincere spirit, feel good with the ability to say "Thank You." I would bet I would receive a smile in return. These are often individuals who are dealing with English as a Second Language. They know and understand if it is a bit off.

[herbacidal]

Fat Guy,

I love the book idea, and those Asian stats are fascinating. Somehow I always assumed that there were more Koreans in L.A. than in New York, considering the quality of the food out there vs. NY; it's interesting to learn that they simply make up more of the population.

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I'm 2 pages into this 7 page thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but I wanted to post this before I forgot.

A few Koreans have recently told me that many Koreans consider the best Korean food in the world to be in LA. I haven't heard that from enough Koreans yet to consider that very solid, but I just thought I'd pass that on.

Separately, I don't know when the idea of fried noodles with takeout orders began,

but if I understand the psyche of Chinese restaurant owners at all, it is done that way because it's the cheapest way of giving customers something extra, since those noodles are often the corner of the egg roll wrapper cut off and fried for a few minutes. No extra money spent, just a little extra time and effort.

[herbacidal]

I think it might be useful to have a section on the myths and realities about MSG.  It seems that there are so many people who feel the need to avoid MSG or have self-diagnosed themselves with MSG sensitivity, when it's probably something else.  It seems to be a contributor to some Asian food phobias.

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I'm wondering if KFC uses more MSG than Asian restaurants.

I was so thirsty after my last KFC meal a week ago.

[Fat Guy]

I'm going to be interviewing Betty Xie, the editor of Chinese Restaurant News, in the near future. I've already got so many questions that I may not even get to all of them, but if you all have anything you'd like me to ask her I'll see if I can squeeze it in.

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I'll be incorporating some of the information from the exchange I had with Betty Xie in the book, but I thought you all might be interested in the uncut version.

Betty (editor of Chinese Restaurant News) Xie's responses to Steven Shaw's inquiries

SS: I've noticed that, more and more often, Chinese restaurants are serving other Asian cuisines in addition to Chinese food. In particular, sushi and Thai food. Do you have any statistics about this trend? Is there a reason restaurateurs are giving you for the decision to serve these other kinds of food?

BZ: The recent years, we have heard about Chinese restaurants are shabby, out-dated; Chinese food are oily, salty and cheap. The bad reputation, to some degree is very true, has deeply hurt the Chinese restaurant industry. Despite the increase rate of Chinese restaurants is almost 150% since late 90s, many new restaurants are operated by new immigrant families who still strive to make a living. A lot of Chinese restaurants are competing with themselves solely on price point. And they are ultimately left with no margin to improve. (There were under 30,000 Chinese restaurants in 1996, and more than 43,000 in 2006, according to our own database)

At the same time, Japanese and Thai cuisines are getting more and more popular among mainstream consumers.

It could be because of this, many well-established Chinese restaurants have to expand their menu and add more Asian dishes, just to be more appealing to diners.

SS:It seems that many Chinese restaurants have the same or similar menus. Is there a company somewhere that provides a Chinese restaurant starter kit that includes a standard menu? If not, do you know how this menu developed and is distributed?

BZ: No, not likely. The “standard menu” scenario is an interesting phenomenon to even Chinese people themselves. Mostly, chefs or staff would open a new restaurant of their own after working a few years at a Chinese restaurant, and keep the same menu. Other guess is that Chinese restaurant people would not want to risk investment by changing the menu and selling dishes that Americans would not eat. The safe way to go is to copy some one else’s menu. 

The menus are similar, but the dishes by no means get to a standard.  It could read the same “Chow Mein” on the menus, but the noodles can vary from thin to thick to crispy ones from restaurants to restaurants. The color of shrimp fried rice in the east coast can be dark, while in SF, it can be white. 

Promoting Chinese cuisine and trying to set standards for Chinese restaurants have been a common wish among insiders of Chinese cuisine. The annual Top 100 Chinese Restaurants in USA awards, organized by Chinese Restaurant News, aims at the goal.

SS: Do you have any information about what percentage of Chinese restaurants are family-owned and what percentage are part of chains?

BZ: We have some estimates. Based on CRN’s database, 80%+ are family-owned, 15%+ are part of small regional chains run by families, relatives or partnerships (not franchised). We see more of these regional chains that owns 3 – 10 locations. Some have 20-30 shops. Big chains like Panda Express, PF Chang’s, Manchu Wok, Hy-Vee Chinese Express, Leeann Chins, Mark Pi’s Orientals, etc, take up less than 5% of the segment.

SS: And do you know what percentage are buffets? Also, what's the total number of Chinese restaurants in America?

BZ: Total number of Chinese restaurants in US is 43,139, per our database in Jan 2007.  Chinese Buffets are definitely on the rise. First Chinese buffets started in Canada, and to New York. The fastest growing area for buffets were in Texas in late 90s since the rent was cheap there. One of our advertiser who sells buffet tables actually moved the entire company from NY to Texas in 1999 because so many of their customers came from Texas.

We don’t have exact percentage of buffets safe estimate could be around less than 10%.

SS: There was recently a series of news articles about Chinese food being unhealthy. How have restaurateurs reacted to those articles? Have there been any strong public responses I can quote? (I think the claim that Chinese food is unhealthy is absurd, by the way!)

BZ: Please see attached CRN press release in this regard. [sEE BELOW]

SS: Do you have any information about declining use of MSG in Chinese restaurants? It seems more and more menus say "no MSG." Are there any statistics about this?

BZ: Definitely the trend of “no MSG” is continuing. In 1998, we had 3-4 companies advertised their MSG product in CRN. Now all of those companies seem vanished. Chicken powder replaces MSG.

One Japanese company . . . was a big profit-maker on MSG, now faces real crisis as how to switch their products to more healthy options.

SS: What are the top trends in Chinese food in America right now?

More authentic in menu and food; bigger operation in scale; family operated regional chains increasing; international chains (China, Taiwan, HongKong chains) expanding to US market, more American-operated Chinese chains; buffets and Chinese takeouts are increasing while dine-in restaurants shrinking; more Chinese restaurants aware of fusion food trends; more high-end fine dining Chinese restaurants than 20 years ago.

SS: Can you tell me a little about yourself and Chinese Restaurant News, so I can familiarize my readers with you and the magazine?

BZ: My title here is the Editor-in-chief of Chinese Restaurant News. The monthly publication started in July 1995, and printed in Chinese. Over the decade, it has become a must-read information source for Chinese restaurateurs.

Chinese Restaurant News (c-r-n.com) was founded in 1995 to inform the owners and operators of 43,000 Chinese restaurants in the U.S. of industry news and trends. Its sister publication, English-language trade magazine Asian Restaurant News (a-r-n.net), is also published by parent company Smart Business Services, Inc. (s-b-s.net).

SS: Do you have a list of the most-ordered dishes in Chinese restaurants in America?

BZ: Eggrolls, Pot Stickers, Wonton Soup, BBQ Pork, Hot & Sour Soup, Sweet & Sour Pork, Broccoli Beef, KangPao Chicken, Mushoo Pork, Mongolian Beef, Cashew Chicken, Orange Peel Beef,

General Tsao’s Chicken, Lemon Chicken, Sesame Chicken, (mostly sweet, sour, spicy taste profiled dishes sell well). Fried Rice

Recently, Peking Duck, Siu Mai, Har Gao (Chinese dim sum), Cha Siu Bao (BBQ Pork stuffed steam buns), Lettuce wrap with shredded chicken, MaPo Tofu, Summer roll (steamed egg roll), etc. More authentic dishes, more health-watching dishes.

CRN press release on Chinese food and health

Chinese Restaurants, Celebrity Chef, and Registered Dietician Suggest Guidelines For Chinese Restaurant Dining

Fremont, Calif. - March 29, 2007 - Chinese restaurants, celebrity chef Martin Yan, Chinese Restaurant News (C-R-N.com), and registered dietician Dr. Jacqueline Newman encourage diners to follow nutritional guidelines or suggestions established by restaurants and health-related associations in order to select, order, and eat healthier at Chinese restaurants. 

“There are thousands of Chinese restaurants in the country offering a diverse menu with healthy choices for diners.  It is important for a diner to order wisely.  For instance, when I bring my friends and family to a Chinese restaurant, we avoid eating deep fried dishes and order healthier alternatives such as steamed dishes, vegetables, and tofu.  Every ethnic cuisine has healthy and unhealthy choices.  The decision lies within the consumer to order a healthy variety of dishes,” said Martin Yan.

In response to an increased awareness for healthier dining, noticeable efforts have improved menu offerings in Chinese restaurants. National Restaurant Association's healthydiningfinder.com includes several Chinese restaurants that spell out the nutritional make-up of the dishes that they offer. For example, a stir-fried dish (from one of the featured restaurants) offers chicken, beef, shrimp with broccoli and Chinese peas, and steamed rice, has 275 calories, 13 g fat, 3 g saturated fat, 110 mg cholesterol, 505 mg sodium, 10 g carbohydrates, and 31 g protein.

“A typical Chinese meal is meant for sharing by a few diners at the same table and most Chinese restaurants serve their meals in such traditional fashion. Also, diners will realize that the sodium intake level is lower when they eat the dishes with steamed rice,” said Dr. Jacqueline Newman. “Most people order dishes that will appeal to them rather than based on the health values. So it is important to encourage diners to make the healthy choice.” 

[Gastro888]

I can't imagine it would ever be a blunder to say a few polite Japanese words and phrases to a Japanese-restaurant employee, even if that employee is a 7' tall and black. Seems to me it's always polite, always a sign of respect, always appropriate. But if you're afraid you might insult a Japanese-restaurant employee by saying "domo arigato," you can always just ask, "So, where are you from?"

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Just my 0.02 cents:

Careful how you ask the, "So, where are you from?" question.

I am often asked that question out of context (ie, in a business situation where my ethnicity has no bearing on discussion at hand) and quite honestly, it irritates me to no end.

Not that any eG'er would need this tip but please engage in polite small talk before jumping straight to that, "So, where are you from?" question.

Regardless, you might get the smart ass like me who might say, "From my mother's womb."

[Fat Guy]

Well, I'm pleased to say that the first draft of the manuscript is now complete and we're moving into the editing/rewriting phase of the process. Sometime in the next couple of months I should know the publication date, which should be a year or so from now.

[raji]

I can't imagine it would ever be a blunder to say a few polite Japanese words and phrases to a Japanese-restaurant employee, even if that employee is a 7' tall and black. Seems to me it's always polite, always a sign of respect, always appropriate. But if you're afraid you might insult a Japanese-restaurant employee by saying "domo arigato," you can always just ask, "So, where are you from?"

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Just my 0.02 cents:

Careful how you ask the, "So, where are you from?" question.

I am often asked that question out of context (ie, in a business situation where my ethnicity has no bearing on discussion at hand) and quite honestly, it irritates me to no end.

Not that any eG'er would need this tip but please engage in polite small talk before jumping straight to that, "So, where are you from?" question.

Regardless, you might get the smart ass like me who might say, "From my mother's womb."

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I don't think it's rude to assume that a person is of the ethnicity of the restaurant they work at. It's not like Asians have a Rosetta Stone to telling who is Chinese, Korean or Japanese. There are Japanese people who like Chinese and Koreans who look Japanese etc. etc. etc.

While "where are you from" is more of a nightclub pickup line and a bit too direct, if I can't tell by looks and accent, if I've been there I'll ask, for instance "What part of Thailand are you from?", knowing that the North, South and Island culture are all pretty unique in their own way... I guess this is only useful if you've been to that country.

In terms of Japan, I am always very curious as to where people are from, and they are usually very very gratified that I know where they are from, can speak their dialect, or perhaps have been to some obscure temple or restaurant. I think in general it's good to let people know that not all NYers and Americans think that New York and the USA are the center of the world. It would certainly result in better government!

[Gastro888]

...While "where are you from" is more of a nightclub pickup line and a bit too direct,...

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Nightclub pickup line...nice!

It's rather direct and for me, it's just a question you don't ask unless you actually care. Most people ask that question because they're trying to catagorize individuals. I'm not the only one who shares this view on the question. I would suggest people to try and figure it out on your own or try to ask after establishing yourself as a loyal patron.

[Peter Green]

I dunno....after many years in Asia, and having been asked "where you from", "what's your name", "How much you earn", and, my personal favourite from Saigon cyclo drivers "how much you weigh".....it doesn't seem that unfair.....

(A fair question, if you can tell which country they're from, is to inquire as to which part....having come across waitresses at the Army & Navy Club in London that didn't have Seoul accents.......)

[Gastro888]

I understand what you're saying, Peter. But it's all in the context. 'Sides, you're on their turf (bike).

I can top your experience. At the first strategic planning meeting I had with the consultants for our company, one of the senior consultants asked me point blank where I was from fifteen minutes into the meeting.

Anyways, I don't want to get off topic - it is FG's thread. Just wanted to shed a bit of light on the infamous question.

[Shanti Rae]

Not sure if this is the right place, but I thought I'd let you know how well your sushi bar tactics worked for me this evening.

I've been eating sushi for decades, ever since the dinner when I snagged a piece of my mom's tuna maki and got hooked. In Honolulu I had a standing dinner date with my favorite sushi chef and ate whatever he put in front of me, some of it quite adventurous. But that was in a state where good fish and basic knowledge of the food was just assumed, so I don't think my experience there was extraordinary. Now I live in a culinary wasteland where I can get good Mexican, but not any form of decent Asian cuisine and the only local veggies I can get are grown in my backyard. I had noticed a sushi place close to my house tucked in a run-down strip mall and decided to give it a shot tonight, but i wasn't expecting much.

I was early, and the only person at the bar, right across from the older gentleman behind the counter. I asked if they had Toro, which surprised the chef. He smiled, said he did and mentioned that he also had A-gi, just flown in from Japan. I didn't remember having that before, but he said "If you know to eat Toro, you will like A-gi." Which is how I ended up with a whole (small, thankfully) fish skewered on bamboo, with the sashimi sliced and laid out along the body, topped with fresh ginger and scallions. It was really, really good. I had started in on the Toro, when an older gentleman walked out from the back and towards the front of the restaurant.

My chef called out that I had liked the A-gi, and the gentleman, the owner, pivoted around to me. He saw the Toro and noted that I liked sashimi, which obviously pleased him. Then he grabbed one of the small dishes and started asking for things from behind the bar, including sesame oil and bits of seaweed. He built a sauce, took my chopsticks and fed me a piece of Toro the way he likes to eat it. Needless to say, I didn't touch the soy after that. Also needless to say, it attracted an audience, but I didn't care.

The chef behind the counter then decided to make me a "French-style" sushi, which was four types of fish, each in a different preparation that was perfectly matched to the fish. The presentation was nearly as good as the food. I'm afraid that's as far as I got through your guide, because there was no way I could have eaten a piece of sushi, much less a roll after what I had just eaten.

In the meantime, I learned that one or two people in a given month come in looking for Toro and that even fewer wanted sashimi. I got the entire life story of the chef (Laotian) including his escape from the Communists in 1976. It also turns out that he's only recently been living in south Texas and we had several points of intersection thanks to my Navy travels. We exchanged names, I tipped well (because they didn't charge me for the additional dish) and I expect I will be back in the next week or so.

I probably would have had a lovely meal even if I hadn't set aside the menu and ordered the sashimi right off the bat, but I suspect it wouldn't have been this good. So, thanks Fat Guy, I think it's safe to say that after my first visit, I'm officially a regular.

[Fat Guy]

This makes me happy.

[Fat Guy]

The manuscript came back from my editor with comments a few weeks ago. I spent three weeks doing revisions and adding some new material, and now it's back with the publisher. I hope to have the production schedule soon. And, we have a new title -- but we need to tweak it a bit before I can share.

[Fat Guy]

Just got word on the production schedule. The book will be on sale in November 2008.

[Fat Guy]

It's official. The book will be titled

ASIAN DINING RULES: Essential Strategies for Eating Out at Japanese, Chinese, Southeast Asian, Korean, and Indian Restaurants.

It will be on sale in November. I just got the first pass galley proofs and the first draft of the cover and they look great.

[kathryn]

Congrats!

[Fat Guy]

This is the basic cover design. There are still some changes coming, like an endorsement quote across the top, but this is close:

[RAHiggins1]

If the staff is Japanese, they will know from your accent alone how good your Japanese is. My accent is nearly native, and the situation Robin describes has happened to me, where I am spoken to as a native Japanese, and my vocabulary is just not that good anymore.

Keep in mind that even Japanese owned and run restaurants, japanese-"looking" waitress who are chinese and korean are employed. They usually learn some basic Japanese phrases to deal with the Japanese clientele, of which a good Japanese restaurant should and will have many.

Robin is for the most part right, but at the same time, but you will get major brownie points by applying well-timed phrases. It's not just out of respect to Japanese culture and culinary practice, but it shows that you are well-heeled in the ways of Asian dining. korean restaurants will be blown away if you know any korean whatsoever; it's just not a language studied by non-koreans much at all... my anyanghaseo and yoboseyo are good enough by now...

Key japanese phrases would certainly be greetings:

"Konnicha, konbanwa - good day, good evening"

"Mata yoroshiku onegaishimasu" - is a good one as you're leaving, meaning kind of, please do your favor next time, it just kind of indicated, hey, I'll be back... "jya mata ne" might be a little course for that situation

think of "itadakimasu" as something you'd do at a temple when receiving your bowl of rice - it's just your little way of saying grace

"gochiso sama" is a standard good one as hiroyuki indicated.

Girls can be cute and say "oiichi" instead of oishii, said lolita-style, that might get a kick out of the chefs

If you can proncounce all these phrases and they understand you, you are ready to learn Japanese. If not, then it's time to dig up some youtube instructional videos and practice the Japanese vowel sounds (there are only 5) as this will increase the understandability of your Japanese phrases by leaps and bounds.

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I was going to suggest a quick pronunciation key.

A = Ah

I = ee

U - oo

E - eh

O - oh

Although, mispronunciation while attempting to speak a foreign language could be found as more endearing to your host/chef/server.

The chinese place I frequent usually responds shay shay she-in (your welcome?) when i say shay shay ( Thank you?) as I leave.

Edited June 17, 2008 by RAHiggins1 (log)

[robyn]

My husband is the "Mr. Language" person. I am not. One of the saving graces when he studied Japanese is that - at least for people who speak English - Japanese - like Spanish - is a phonetic language. You speak it like you spell it.

Since this thread started - a not-so-great Japanese "buffet" place here in town (Jacksonville FL) - which was/is run by people from China - has turned into - among other things - a real dim sum place - complete with carts. The dim sum is fresh - prepared by a chef from Los Angeles. Like I wrote in a thread in the Florida forum - who would have thunk it? A large percentage of the clientele is Filipino (people who work at Mayport Naval base and our various health care facilities among other places). When we were there for lunch last Saturday - there was a (Filipino) birthday party for about 100 people. And who would have thunk that? Anyway - the really nice thing about dim sum with carts is it's "point and click". No need to worry about anything except how good the food is. And - at this place - it is good. Robyn

[RAHiggins1]

My husband is the "Mr. Language" person.  I am not.  One of the saving graces when he studied Japanese is that - at least for people who speak English - Japanese - like Spanish - is a phonetic language.  You speak it like you spell it.

Since this thread started - a not-so-great Japanese "buffet" place here in town (Jacksonville FL) - which was/is run by people from China - has turned into - among other things - a real dim sum place - complete with carts.  The dim sum is fresh - prepared by a chef from Los Angeles.  Like I wrote in a thread in the Florida forum - who would have thunk it?  A large percentage of the clientele is Filipino (people who work at Mayport Naval base and our various health care facilities among other places).  When we were there for lunch last Saturday - there was a (Filipino) birthday party for about 100 people.  And who would have thunk that?  Anyway - the really nice thing about dim sum with carts is it's "point and click".  No need to worry about anything except how good the food is.  And - at this place - it is good.  Robyn

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Dim sum is my absolute favorite type of Chinese food. YUM! We have an all you can eat on sunday Dimsum place here in the heart of the Atlantasian community (Doraville) or at least we did.

I bought a "Learn Japanese in 10 weeks" workbook back in 1986 when I went to Okinawa for a year. That was fun, I got engaged to an okinawan girl and found myself cooking for her family all the time. They ate simple country food as they were farmers. It was quite daunting when her brother in law speared a yellowtail tuna and they expected me to cut it into sashimi. But that's there and not North America or in a restaurant.

[Village Idiot]

This sucks. I'm now really craving some good asian food. I haven't gotten sashimi in forever. Maybe that or some Udon.

[Fat Guy]

So the release of the book is getting ever closer. There's now a usable page on the HarperCollins website, complete with some video we shot in-studio (there's also B-roll from the Heartland gathering in Chicago).

http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780061...ules/index.aspx

Look for the pace of updates here to increase in the coming month.

[MaxH]

... I’d bite off the top of the steaming egg roll, pour the soy sauce and duck sauce onto the exposed innards, and gleefully chomp ...

I don't know if you addressed this in your writing, but the quotation illustrates a reference potentially confusing to a US-wide audience. Because (unlike soy sauce) "duck sauce" is regionally specific, within the US. It is a more localized tradition than many other "overseas" Chinese-cooking elements like the fortune cookie (the focus of Jennifer Lee's book on east-Asian restaurants published this year).

Growing up in the SF region (where maybe half of all restaurants are Chinese, some of them very authentic and competitive with each other), I first encountered little pouches of "duck sauce" only in the eastern US -- never in previous decades eating around SF, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, etc. Little pouches of lightly colored syrup (whether or not actually related to plums) are far from universal in US Chinese restaurants, though they seem to be so familiar in some places that people grow fond of them, and miss them when dining elsewhere.

[mcohen]

I can't wait for the book to come out, although I'm not the biggest fan of the cover or the title. (I thought 'Turning the Tables' was a wittier title, although perhaps the antagnostic sounding title was not reflective of the material inside that book).

One interesting thing I found in Harper Collins' description of the book was the statement "dining expert Steven A. Shaw proves that you don't have to be Asian to enjoy a VIP experience". But, after the sturm und drang of the sushi etiquette thread, I'm curious if it will prove to readers that you don't have to be Asian to write such a book. I'm sure that there will be some readers who will believe that such a book will not be 'authentic' because Steve is not Asian, but we won't know how big of an effect it will be until the book is released.

Edited September 30, 2008 by mcohen (log)