China Becoming One of the Largest Buyers

[Don Giovanni]

China is becoming one of the largest buyers of

ultra premium Bordeaux wines

China is becoming one of the largest buyers of ultra premium Bordeaux wines, Wu said. ?Unfortunately, the Chinese are drinking them with seven-up and ginger ale.

continued controversy by encouraging the establishment of a classification system of Grand Crus growths in the Napa Valley.

Click On Me

I found the second installment of the Robert Mondavi Winery's taste 3 ...very interesting...

[mike volker]

Why do I have such a problem envisioning Rothschild and dim sum?

Mike

[Don Giovanni]

Why do I have such a problem envisioning Rothschild and dim sum?

Mike

←

Because they just do seem to go well together ...lol

[JohnL]

Interesting.

When the Japanese were noted as buyers of fines wines they too were slandered by tales of their mixing Lafitte with Coca Cola or brandy.

I find this piece of conventional wisdom an inelegant blend of wine snobbery--envy and racism.

This whole article is an indication of how the industry is a font of wrongheaded conventional wisdom.

[Rebel Rose]

This article is merely reporting on what the speakers at this Mondavi-sponsored event were saying:

San Francisco food journalist Olivia Wu informed that there are 1.3 billion Chinese who are becoming interested in wine. ?Presently, they are looking to France for the old wines, and to Australia for new world wines, she said.

Urging the attendees to realize and understand the potential of the Asian market, Wu added: ?While China is buying up Bordeaux brands, these wines are the least compatible with Chinese food.? She said there are no ovens in Chinese homes, there is no baking or roasting, so America needs to consider wines that will accommodate the Chinese style.

China is becoming one of the largest buyers of ultra premium Bordeaux wines, Wu said. ?Unfortunately, the Chinese are drinking them with seven-up and ginger ale.

And it looks to me, from the complete list of speakers, that they were going more for crowd-pleasers and attention-getters than true industry experts. They have Leo McCloskey, for pity's sake, beating the drum about establishing a cru system in Napa. But not elsewhere?

Leo McCloskey continued controversy by encouraging the establishment of a classification system of Grand Crus growths in the Napa Valley. He believed only Oakville to be worthy to be a first growth, with Rutherford listed as a third growth. St. Helena and Yountville would be relegated to fourth growth status, and the remainder of the present appellations would be either as fifth or unclassified growths.

And Randall Grahm complaining, again, that terroir will never be found in the "new world." Like he expects it to come up to him and kick him in the shin?

[Fengyi]

I'm sorry, but I have heard this 'Chinese just mix sprite and coke with their premier cru wine' SO SO SO Many times (and have NEVER witnessed it) that it just plain infuriates me!

I think that you, JohnL, have hit it on the nose. It's such a pandering blend of snobbery and envy combined.

Perhaps the noveau-riche of the early 90s did this, but certainly now, I doubt that this exists. The Chinese themselves laugh at such behaviour!

Last Wednesday I was at a Chateau Loudenne dinner here in Beijing and nobody mixed coke with their wine(!). In fact, many perceptive and intelligent comments were made about the wines' balance and structure.

When I have taught wine tasting seminars in Chinese, I find that, contrary to the coke-mixing stereotype, most Chinese beginner-level tasters are generally more sensitive to acid/structure balance and taste than the UK entry-level tasters that I have taught. They do respect the flavour and tastes that the wine has on its own. Perhaps this is due to a food culture where perceptive comments on food tastes and mouthfeel are expected from an early age.

They also have a bee in their bonnet about ageing wine - so I suspect many rich Chinese who are buying young Bordeaux are actually ageing them (being that a wine cellar is becoming de rigueur in many new houses nowadays!).

And as for "there are 1.3 billion Chinese who are becoming interested in wine" WHAT garbage! There is NO one product in China that has a market of 1.3 billion. Not even rice! On this basis, I totally agree with you, Rebel Rose, that these speakers were going for attention and crowd pleasing.

grrrrr

[Rebel Rose]

Fengyi, what do think of Wu's comment that Bordeaux "are the least compatible with Chinese food"? Isn't there a wide range of food that would pair well with Bordeaux? In fact, I would think the emphasis on quality ingredients, and the frequent use of fruit sauces in Chinese cooking would actually go well with Bordeaux, and perhaps blow our girdled Western cuisine of steak and potatoes out of the water.

[JohnL]

I think there are a few issues at play here.

Some of this is fueled by a resentment that an ever expanding market for fine wines is really the key factor that is driving prices and scarcity.

The elites in the wine world are looking for scapegoats (a favorite seems to be some wine critics--well really only one) and so the "Russians" or the "Japanese" or the "Chinese" or nuveau riche from any place are at least partly to blame for the fact that their "anointed" wines are harder to find and more costly.

Then to add insult to....

The insidious claims that "these people" do not really understand or appreciate these works of art!" So we have the stories of swimming pools filled with Petrus and Coke Cola and Cheval Blanc and Romanee Conti served with ice and Montrachet spritzers etc.

Really, I personally don't have a problem with anyone anywhere enjoying any wine in any manner they chose! (ok maybe swimming in Petrus is taking things a bit too far).

The upside of all these new wine drinkers is there is room for more wine to be produced. Wine Makers have new markets for their wines and many can get better prices for their hard work. A thriving wine industry is a good thing. For everyone. Unless of course, you only drink first growth Bordeaux and limited production Burgundy or...

[Fengyi]

Fengyi, what do think of Wu's comment that Bordeaux "are the least compatible with Chinese food"?  Isn't there a wide range of food that would pair well with Bordeaux?  In fact, I would think the emphasis on quality ingredients, and the frequent use of fruit sauces in Chinese cooking would actually go well with Bordeaux, and perhaps blow our girdled Western cuisine of steak and potatoes out of the water.

←

Hi! Acutally, I would argue that the term 'Chinese food' is completely useless here. It's likes saying 'all wines go with European food'.... yep, from lutefisk to quiche, they all match wines perfectly

"Chinese" food is SO limited in its variety outside its native country that I can understand where the idea of 'Chinese food' comes from. But it is such a gross simplification....

Here, in Beijing, we can dine at restaurants from every corner of China and it is just a diverse as going to Italian one night, French the next, German the next, etc... and that is without even getting into subtleties of sub-regions. Of course, techniques are similar but only to the extent that European cooking techniques are all similar as well.

So, for instance, with the hearty northern grilled meats (yes, the northerners DO have charcoal grills and all that!), a bordeaux (or cs/merlot based) wine would go nicely. Claret is also nice with the simple beef stews of Dongbei. It's pretty good with Beijing roast duck and also, great with roasted or 'lu'd (it's a type of stewing) goose. I really want to bring a bottle to my favourite Uighur restaurant that does a killer roasted leg of lamb as I reckon it would go excellently.

Claret would have gone nicely with the slow-cooked venison that I had last weekend at the 'Imperial Cuisine' restaurant of Fangshan. In fact, it would have gone better with that than the Pavillon Rouge de Ch. Loudenne with Dorade pairing that we had at a French Restaurant later in the week!

I myself am still discovering new types and styles of Chinese food (I had a lovely surprise of trying some LI River minority food the other week - they use jasmine flowers in their cooking...it was like eating Muscat wine or somethng like Gewurtz!!).

Anyway, the upshot of my rant is that, yes, there is plenty of food within the Chinese tradition that would good well with bordeaux. There is plenty of food which wouldn't as well. It would be harder to match it with Hunan, Sichuan and that sort of cooking, but then again, Claret wouldn't go that well with a lot of big gusty southern Italian food either

I've whittered on for far too long, but it's something which I feel quite passionate about.

PS EDITED to agree with JohnL's points about resentment turning to condescension...and also to say that I think swimming in Petrus would be REALLY painful....just think of all that acidity...OUCH!

Edited May 19, 2007 by Fengyi (log)

[Rebel Rose]

Anyway, the upshot of my rant is that, yes, there is plenty of food within the Chinese tradition that would good well with bordeaux. There is plenty of food which wouldn't as well. It would be harder to match it with Hunan, Sichuan and that sort of cooking, but then again, Claret wouldn't go that well with a lot of big gusty southern Italian food either   

Exactly. China is a huge country, geographically, with many different styles of cooking. And some regions which are affluent . . . or not. Just as in America. To those of us who are unfarmiliar with China, which regions would be the most affluent? The most likely to have Bordeaux collectors? What are those regions/cities like?

[dinwiddie]

Anyway, the upshot of my rant is that, yes, there is plenty of food within the Chinese tradition that would good well with bordeaux. There is plenty of food which wouldn't as well. It would be harder to match it with Hunan, Sichuan and that sort of cooking, but then again, Claret wouldn't go that well with a lot of big gusty southern Italian food either   

Exactly. China is a huge country, geographically, with many different styles of cooking. And some regions which are affluent . . . or not. Just as in America. To those of us who are unfarmiliar with China, which regions would be the most affluent? The most likely to have Bordeaux collectors? What are those regions/cities like?

←

Not only are both of these statements correct, but remember that China has an extremely fast growing middle and upper class and they do not limit themselves to eating "Chinese food" any more than we limit ourselves to eating "American food."

Edited May 21, 2007 by dinwiddie (log)

[JohnL]

There was (is?) a Vietnamese restaurant in Paris that has been celebrated for its list of Bordeaux most notably Pomerols.

I have never been there but have read a number of times that the wines compliment the food very nicely!

I can "see" where Chinese cuisines (most New Yorkers know there is not one monolithic cuisine of China) would work nicely with red wine (and white).

There are several restaurants serving Chinese cuisine in New York that do have good wine lists. Both Shun Lee's and Chin Chin for eg.

The cooking of many chefs who are strongly influenced by not just Chinese but the Pacific Rim cuisines -- Ming Tsai and Joel Robuchon as well as Asian chefs whose cooking is influenced by Western cuisines are all helping to blur the lines and also create some interesting and exciting food and wine situations. I know of a few wine "nuts" who regularly bring great Bordeaux and other wines to some of the top Japanese restaurants here.

I would add that even Americans are stereotyped by snobs. "We are supposed to have palates influenced by years of drinking Coke and therefore we crave sweet wines."

"We have no tradition of drinking wine with our meals so we don't get the wine and food thing."

and on and on and.........

I would welcome anyone from anywhere who discovers and enjoys wine just as I would hope to be welcomed when I discover and enjoy something rooted in another culture.

[wkl]

i think, johnl, you are referring to tan dinh. they have (or had when last i was there, about 7 years ago) an excellent wine list.

[JohnL]

That's the one!

Thanks.

It seems odd but I would put this place high up on my list of

gotta visit restaurants in Paris!

I have read and heard good things about both the food and the wine.

[wkl]

bring lots of euros!

[Peter Green]

I've been to a lot of wine events in Asia, and I find their palates are as good (or better), and their enthusiasm is far higher. Part of it is that these wines are significantly more expensive in many parts of Asia, due to abusive tax structures (such as Thailand), or oddly canted (such as Singapore where you are far better off amortizing your tax load by buying expensive wines). So, those who enjoy wine have to be committed to the pursuit.

For China, I saw very well stocked wine cellars with a good range of wines; the very expensive to the serviceable. And several of the Chinese whites that I had (The Dragon Seal Reserve, the Grace) were very good matches for the cuisine (but I'd like to see a Gewurtz). About me I heard what may have been local diners (but that is an assumption) carefully choosing their wines, and making far better comments than I could make about the flavour pairings.

Sheesh! No one's excited that the Americans are buying high end sakes from Japan, nor are they making comments about "how they must be putting shots of sake in beer".....although that does sound sort of interesting......

[Peter Green]

As a side comment, there is a very big push by Indian and Asian restauranteurs in the West to develop a wine culture around their cuisines. This came up when I was talking with Cyrus Todiwalla a couple of years back. This is in part simply a matter of "wine is good", but also in part is very much a matter of economics. If you can move a lot of wine, you're going to be looking at a much bettter balance sheet at the end of the night.

[Fengyi]

Sheesh!  No one's excited that the Americans are buying high end sakes from Japan, nor are they making comments about "how they must be putting shots of sake in beer".....although that does sound sort of interesting......

←

and no one says 'boy, look at those Westerners! They're all so crazy and unappreciative that they add MILK to their tea! Even SUGAR'

OK, so that's a bit crazy, but I liked the point about sake so much I had to add one of my own...

Beijing is nowhere near as sophisticated a dining place as Shanghai, but you can eat from the whole myriad of Chinese cuisines here as well as enjoy just about any other world cuisine. These, of course, serve a much higher proportion of ex-pats than Chinese locals, but the wine dinners at european restaurants always seem include a good mix of Asian/Western.

BTW, Rebel Rose, I think you'd be surprised at where some of the big collectors are - some of them are in cities most people have never heard of! They may have made their money there in mining or some other local industry and stayed. In fact, I just heard of a wine-importing friend who is going specially to one such obscure place just to personally entertain one client who's a big customer. So they must be buying big.

But you can put most of the big players along the (mainly Southern) coastal cities (though I hear Dalian and place like that are really picking up) and in Beijing of course.

As regards margin, however, Peter - I would say that beer is far more profitable for most restaurants. You can sell a Yanjing beer here (which is about 3 RMB in the grocery store) for up to 45RMB in a nicer restaurant and without the storage overheads, training or nice glasses costs needed for wine.

Perhaps because we're a load of Northern cheapskates it is quite hard for people in the F and B business here to move wine with big margins in restaurants. People notice and make rather nasty comments (I've heard quite a few about certain places around town). Somehow, maybe because it's only 45RMB (in places where a cocktail is about 55RMB), beer attracts a lot less negative comments about its markup. I mean, a few places like Tiandi Yijia and Aria can move a lot of high-end wine because of the expense-account business, but I think even the nicer-end places here don't shift it as much as they want to.

Moving profitably priced wine is apparently much easier in Shanghai and places further south.

Funnily enough, I have noticed that Chinese people shopping at IKEA tend to drink wine with their meatballs and set meals. But a glass of wine is cheap there, and because they don't sell by the bottle, the initial outlay is low enough to entice. And heck, if you're in IKEA to get your house furnished, maybe a glass of wine is neccessary to face the horrors of the 'warehouse level'!!!

[Peter Green]

As regards margin, however, Peter - I would say that beer is far more profitable for most restaurants. You can sell a Yanjing beer here (which is about 3 RMB in the grocery store) for up to 45RMB in a nicer restaurant and without the storage overheads, training or nice glasses costs needed for wine.

Perhaps because we're a load of Northern cheapskates    it is quite hard for people in the F and B business here to move wine with big margins in restaurants. People notice and make rather nasty comments (I've heard quite a few about certain places around town). Somehow, maybe because it's only 45RMB (in places where a cocktail is about 55RMB), beer attracts a lot less negative comments about its markup. I mean, a few places like Tiandi Yijia and Aria can move a lot of high-end wine because of the expense-account business, but I think even the nicer-end places here don't shift it as much as they want to.

Moving profitably priced wine is apparently much easier in Shanghai and places further south.

Funnily enough, I have noticed that Chinese people shopping at IKEA tend to drink wine with their meatballs and set meals. But a glass of wine is cheap there, and because they don't sell by the bottle, the initial outlay is low enough to entice. And heck, if you're in IKEA to get your house furnished, maybe a glass of wine is neccessary to face the horrors of the 'warehouse level'!!! 

←

Fengyi,

My apologies, I wasn't clear on the margin thing. I was actually referencing the London (West in general) market when it came to wines, rather than China. That had arisen out of talks with an Indian chef from London. While I wouldn't say wine was cheap, I was pleasantly surprised to see the wine lists covering a wide range, offering reasonably priced Australians and Kiwis in addition to the odd bottle of Petrus. There's a good realization there of the local market.

And, for that same reason, I thought the wine by glass offerings were better than a lot of other places. People that aren't big wine drinkers will still pay out $5 to $8 for a glass, as opposed to $50 or $100 for a bottle. I feel that the wine bars in Bangkok in the late 80's early 90's (along with a lot of foreign travel) helped develop the taste there for good wines (it's just the taxes are so, so bad).

My favourite spot in Asia is still Phnom Penh. But that isn't a matter of the local palate, it's just such a great bargain, and I like sitting out on Sisowath Quay feeling like John LeCarre.

Cheers,

peter