SanFran88

Besides California Grill and Flying Fish, I would recommend Artist Point, Blue Zoo (the new Todd English restaurant), and Shula's (for steak). We were there in April and tried Blue Zoo and Shula's for the first time -- they're totally different, but both very good. Think about doing some of the dinner and show combos: Fantasmic with Brown Derby or Illuminations with Bistro de Paris, etc. Saves standing in line. California Grill is a great place to watch the fireworks at MK as well.

Comment on the "old town crackers" and the level of service. I e-mailed Meesha and asked her if I could come in to eat in the Bistro at 1730 last Wed. with my wife and three year old. She said that would be fine, they love children; simply call and she would get us a booth. We live on the seam between Old Town and Del Ray, and often eat with child at Evening Star around that time. She's usually very well behaved, and if not one of us takes her for a walk. Lots of families eating at Evening Star early anyway -- of course I didn't consider the slightly different demographics of Old Town and Del Ray (oops). Not only no kids, no patrons under 50 at that hour besides us. Oh, and I blew off calling ahead, so we were seated in the middle of the restaurant. I think every customer in the place was cringing inside waiting for our daughter to announce her presence with authority, as it were. The wait staff, however, was wonderful and managed to very discreetly keep Lily entertained with a non-stop barrage of questions, comments, and requests for drawings. Meesha came by herself to chat Lily up and request a flower drawing, which she promptly displayed at the hostess stand. End result was a wonderful evening for us and no "issues" for any of the other patrons. The food in the bistro was terrific, easily the best of its type/level in Old Town, but what will make us regulars was the discreet, kind and gracious hospitality that prevented a potentially awkward and embarassing situation for us -- or anyone else. I will definately remember to call ahead next time so the staff can hide us if we are there with our daughter, or we will get a babysitter (certainly a necessity for the upstairs), but we will go back. Often. And as I said, the food was wonderful, but almost secondary to our experience. The ravioli stuffed with shortrib appetizer was particularly good.

Neil, thank you so much. Couple of questions. Could I also use corn syrup in place of the honey? Is the flour AP or cake? I'm assuming I could still bake this on a sheet pan for say 10-12 min at 350 (I'm using this as an easy "cake" to make with a child and then build mousse cakes). Any other flavorings you have tried besides the obvious use of citrus rinds?

Does anyone have any recipes for Financiers they can recommend (preferably with weights). I made the chocolate one in Sherry Yard's book (baked in a sheet pan, then layered it in 3 inch rings with chocolate creme chiboust and port-soaked cherries and glazed it with chocolate ganache), but it uses volume and I was guesstimating (turned out fine, but still...). I'm baking this with my three year old, since it is a pretty simple-stupid, dump it all in the KA kind of cake, and she is fascinated by the whole process. There is a chcolate financier recipe in the Bau book, but I'm not sure on how I would substitute cake flour for the cocoa to do something other than chocolate. (I'm also assuming in that recipe that almond flour and almond powder are the same thing). Thanks for any help.

Restaurant Eve is now open on South Pitt in Old Town. Has anyone tried it yet?

I've really enjoyed using this book and recommend it to anyone. In the tart dough discussion she does give the weight she is using for a cup of AP flour at 5 oz.

I got an e-mail from them saying they are now looking at mid-March.

We live on the seam between Old Town and Del Ray and absolutely agree the best places to eat in Old Town are Majestic and Vermillion. Also worth going to are Evening Star (I believe they are owned by the same people who own Vermillion) and (in a Five Guys vein) Taqueria Poblano. Both are on Mt. Vernon Avenue just a few blocks northwest of the King Street/Braddock Street metro area. Evening Star is next to a wine shop (again, I believe under the same ownership), and they let you bring wine over. Does anyone think that getting a Jaleo in Crystal City will have a cascading effect into Alexandria? On a separate but Jaleo-related note, we were fortunate enough to (repeatedly) sample Steve Klc's take on rice pudding at the EPCOT Food and Wine Festival was amazing. Really amazing. The "apple pie" was good too, but the rice pudding was the best single thing we ate the whole week we were there.

Mary, I've been playing around with chocolate as well and trying to learn as much as possible with the thought of taking it up professionally in a few years when my current "day job" is done. Rather than spend the money for a tempering machine, why not spend a similar amount for a class at Notter's school or some other "advanced" type course? Last I checked the three day course at Notter's school was around $800. I'm not sure what the Chocolate Loft charges (and the website says they are still relocating to Providence. Note also that Notter is relocating to Orlando). Might be a better investment in the long run though to do some hands on work with a real pro if you plan on doing this as a business.

lorea, I am kind of in a similar situation and have been going through a number of books. You should consider Paula Figoni's How Baking Works: Exploring the Fundamentals of Baking Science. No recipes, but very informative and more focused than Cookwise. I also am going through Sherry Yard's The Secret's of Baking, and I think you might like it as well (though for some reason it only has volume measurements -- still worthwhile though). I would second (or third Dessert Circus). I also really like Cindy Mushet's Dessert's: Meditarranean Flavors, California Style, which I think Steve Klc mentioned in another thread.

I can second the Jaleo with kids recommendation. We've gone early a several times in the last couple of weeks with our daughter (2 1/2) in the group and it has always gone very well. Lots of things for her to try, staff was very nice, and she had a blast when all the desserts came out (no reason not to do dessert tapas too). This is a very affordable option as well. There are quite a few kids at the Bethesda location for early dinner and lunch any time we have been.

Paula, No California Grill?

I would love to see something along the lines of Bakewise. There are several books coming out in the next few months that may also be useful along these lines: Paula Figoni, How Baking Works: Exploring the Fundamentals of Baking Science (Sep 03) From the Publisher "Accessible coverage of the science of baking Underlying the artistic considerations involved in baking is science, and no other text offers as in-depth coverage of the "whys" of baking as How Baking Works. By helping bakers and pastry chefs better understand the major ingredient groups and reactions ingredients undergo during basic baking techniques, this insightful book is an essential key to mastering skills, effectively adapting to today’s quickly evolving trends, and understanding a wide array of ingredients from different cultures. In a clear, easy-to-understand format, How Baking Works explains how sweeteners, fats, leavening agents, and other ingredients work, as well as how to apply scientific knowledge to answer such questions as: By doubling the sugar in a pound cake, how does that affect the appearance, flavor, and texture of the end product? Each chapter concludes with helpful review exercises and lab experiments, making this book an engaging learning tool. Complete with dozens of informative illustrations, How Baking Works is a versatile instructional book for students in culinary and baking programs and professional bakers and pastry chefs. " Author Biography: PAULA FIGONI is a food scientist and associate professor in the International Baking and Pastry Institute in the College of Culinary Arts at Johnson and Wales University in Providence, Rhode Island. She also has more than ten years of experience in product development and food science at The Pillsbury Company and Ocean Spray Cranberries, Inc. Cathy Burgett and Lou Pappas, Williams-Sonoma Essentials of Baking (Oct 03) From the Publisher Every generation has its standard bearers-and for today's cooks, it's Williams-Sonoma. Second in the "Essentials" series, this is the ultimate "everything you need to know" baking resource from America's favorite expert on all things culinary. From the simplest muffins to artisan-style yeast loaves, it covers the ingredients, equipment, and fundamental techniques for successful baking. In addition to step-by-step photos and baking tips and tricks, this informative volume offers insights on baking traditions all around the world. Over 130 recipes include sumptuous photography, straightforward directions, and multiple variations-in short, everything a cook needs to know to rise to the top. Sherry Yard, The Secrets of Baking: Simple Techniques for Extraordinary Desserts (Nov 03) From the Publisher "a comprehensive primer that guides the cook through the world of baked goods and other desserts, from time-honored classics of the French patisserie to the inspired and fanciful creations that made Spago the famous restaurant it is today. At the same time, it advances a radically new understanding of these recipes, one that will give the baker greater flexibility and confidence in the kitchen. Instead of grouping desserts into traditional categories (pies, cakes, cookies), Sherry Yard arranges them around crucial master recipes. Starting with these recipes -- simple, basic guidelines for making caramel, chocolate sauce, lemon curd, pound cake, and brioche, to name just a few -- Yard shows the cook how to create dozens of variations. Knowing how ingredients interact opens the door to a multitude of baking possibilities. For example, cream puff dough forms the foundation for éclairs, profiteroles, and the caramel-coated tower the French call croquembouche, but understanding how and why it behaves the way it does allows the cook to create deep-fried beignets, mascarpone-filled cannolis, or simmering-hot dumplings. This authoritative, friendly bake-shop bible contains fascinating mini-lessons on food science, illuminating bits of baking history, and time-saving tips. Newcomers to the world of baking will feel at ease with such simple, homey desserts as Banana Bread and Mississippi Mud Pie, and elaborate show-stoppers like Chocolate Brioche Sandwich with Espresso Gelato and Blackberry-Lime-Filled Doughnuts with Blackberry Sorbet and Berries will transform amateur bakers into expert pastry chefs." I caught Ms. Yard on an episode of Wolfgang Puck's FTV show a couple of weeks ago; I tuned in when I saw she would be on since I knew the book was coming out. Left me quite hopeful for the book. She came across as someone who was really trying to teach/communicate. Unfortunately the show was not the best forum for her to express herself in this manner. She was trying to explain how she was using three different flavor/textures of almonds in a pear tartlet (dough, pastry cream, and slivered on top), why she was adding lemon peel with the sugar while creaming (so the sugar's crystal structure would help release the oil from the lemon zest), etc. and Wolfgang, was trying to keep things pumped up for the audience and moving along. I would have loved to see her face when he literally dumped a half cup (at least) of caramel sauce (which it looked like he nearly killed himself making when he dumped dry sugar into what was apparently a rocket-hot pan-- he looked quite startled and they immediately cut away to a commercial) right over the top of her finished tartlet; I'm sure he is a wonderful chef, but he just drowned the poor thing, threw a couple of raspberries on it and there it was. Somehow, I think she would have plated it differently. She also made Tart Tatin in a way I'd never seen before: making a cutout of the puff pastry to fit the pan she was doing the apples in and baking it separately, then placing it on top of the finished apples and inverting. She was again careful to try to explain things as she went (such as carefully folding the cutout puff into quarters before moving it to the baking sheet so as not to stretch it).

Paula, Where did you go besides Norman's? Is it worth breaking away from the F & W festival for (we'll be there the first two weeks in November)?

Steve, Went to Jaleo for Saturday lunch (hoping for Vermilion later in the week); loved the play with textures in the two desserts you recommended. (The server recommended the Basque cake and something else -- white chocolate maybe -- but seemed genuinely happy when we ordered the gelee/berries). The intensity of the gelee was amazing. And my daughter (2) devoured the entire Basque cake. She did a number on the berries and the granita as well, but I tried to steer her off the gelee (though the wine might have contributed to a nice long nap...hmmm). I'm going to definitely add that one to my simple fruit dessert repertoire; as you pointed out, the recipe from the starchefs site looks pretty doable for even the most pastry challenged among us.

What about something like Citizen Cake in SF? I've only seen the work, I've never actually been there.

Are there any "world class" pastry shops in the US (I ask this having no idea of the answer, but suspecting not)? If not, are there any in SF, NYC, Chicago, DC, LA, etc., that are doing very good, if not world class, work? Is it possible to do world class work in a pastry shop in the US?

Nightscotsman, I've read McGee; but I was focused on cooking savory. I clearly need to re-read it now. I have to get it back from my mother-in-law

A basic familiarity with techniques and why things happen is what I'm trying to get an understanding of. Brownies are probably the extent of my baking skills right now. It seems to me that even a lot of the "beginner" books, while they stage recipes in increasing levels of difficulty, don't necessarily explain why things do or don't happen (RLB is kind of an exception), nor do they have pictures to guide you through a technique (say like Pepin's technique book). Malgieri's How to Bake kind of lays things out in an easiest to hardest structure, though that may not always be the best way to learn, but his books don't seem to be well-liked by some of the more knowledgeable members here. Hence my interest in Lesley's book or the Yard book when it comes out. I'm not worried about jumping in, I just don't like jumping in without a plan and I like to see and know why. I've had similar questions before about beginning chocolate books when I was starting to play around with making truffles at home; Bau was in many ways the most informative (ganache discussion, etc.)

Eeek. Steve, I didn't mean to send you off on a mini-rant! Thanks for the info on Vermilion.

Actually I am very interested in what you got at Vermilion, as we will probably be going this weekend. We live within walking distance, having another neighborhood "go-to" place besides Majestic, especially since it is such a different menu, would be nice. Since I have followed the threads here -- and on the pastry board -- I am shocked, shocked, that you not only liked dessert, but that it was a berry cobbler! I seem to remember one of your complaints about Majestic being that the desserts were essentially slices of cake and pie; excellent slices of cake and pie, but kind of lowballing it or mailing it in from what you thought Susan and/or her pastry chef were capable of. We are also going to be in Bethesda this weekend and plan on going to Jaleo; if you could only order two desserts...(or is that like asking you to choose your favorite child ). Tony

Has anyone tried Vermilion in Alexandria (Old Town)? We live in walking distance and normally go to either Majestic or Bistrot Lafayette (or 5 Guys, but that's a different thing). Tony

I have a slightly different, if related, problem than pattimw. I am awash in books and don't know what to do with them. I'm a fairly decent mid-level amateur cook, but I haven't done pastry or baking to speak of. I am very interested in learning, however, and I've decided to make this my project for next year. I've now come into quite a few books, but I'm not sure how to proceed in a systematic way. I've got the following: Friberg, the two volumes on pastry Walter, Great Pies and Tarts; and Great Cakes Ramsey, Just Desserts Silverton, Desserts; and Pastries Child, Baking with Julia Leach, Sweet Seasons Braker, Sweet Miniatures Rodgers, The Baker's Dozen Berl, Classic Art of Viennese Pastry Stewart, Pies and Tarts RLB, Cake Bible; and Pie and Tart Bible Greenspan, Paris Sweets Herme, Desserts and Chocolate Desserts Payard, Simply Sensational Desserts Shere, Chez Panisse Desserts Roux, The Roux Brothers on Patisserie Bergin, Spago Chocolate Gand, Just a Bite Gonzalez, Art of Chocolate Malgieri, all of them Yosse, Dessert for Dummies Rubin, Book of Tarts Fleming, Desserts of Grammercy Tavern (And no, I did not buy all of these new!) I also have Herme's Patisserie, and the Bau and Boulanger books, which are frankly the most interesting and informative (and expensive), but a little intimidating for me to think about executing. My goal is to be able to execute out of these three books by the end of next year. I am, as I said, unsure where to begin. I have signed up for a 20 lesson continuing education pastry class starting in January at the local cooking school (L'Academie in DC). I thought I might get a head start and try to teach myself the basics over the X-mas holidays. I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get a copy of Lesley C's book to do this, or I thought I might wait for the Yard book mentioned earlier in the thread. I could just wait until January, but I kind of wanted to start trying to nail down some basics earlier. I don't like the idea of just jumping in without a coherent plan and I don't know which of the above books is lousy and which ones are great -- and Lord knows they contradict each other quite a bit. There don't seem to be any courses yet in the e-gullet culinary institute (I'm saving bread for another year -- one white whale at a time). Also, I obviously have no technique, hence my interest in Lesley's book or the Yard book; the Friberg books would also be an option, but they didn't really set me on fire when I went through them. Do any of those who have taught pastry have any ideas on this? I am loathe to just jump in and start "trying things." It's not in my personality to not have a plan and I also have limited time due to my day job. Just trying to pick up this particular craft at a decent amateur level is going to be an enormous investment of my rather limited free time; something I definately want to do, but not in an inefficient way. I really don't want to try ten different genoise recipes right now to see which one works for me, (though I realize someday I may want to do that). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Tony

Love: Jacques (and Claudia doesn't bother me) Julia (in every incarnation) Tyler Mario Sara Moulton (it takes a cold, cold heart not to love Sara. She brings on chefs. She'd watch your kids. She'd bring you chicken soup. She's the warm, caring older sister I always wanted) Irritated by: The America's Test Kitchen Crew (I watch and I read, but they can come off like they've just discovered Cold Fusion and the recipes often turn out kind of soulless) Emeril (too much) Bobby Flay (too cocky too soon) Rachael Ray (she's the pain-in-the-ass, annoying kid sister I never wanted) Graham Kerr (sober) Miss: Two Hot Tamales Two Fat Ladies David Rosengarten Tony

Paula, I would say Emeril's, Coq au Vin, and Manuel's on 28th are all worthwhile visits outside of Disney, probably in that order. Chez Vincent is nice if you are going to be in Winter Park. That being said, I stand by my earlier post that I personally haven't found them any better than California Grill, Victoria and Albert's, Flying Fish, or Artist Point, and so not worth the hassle of driving to them if you are doing Disney anyway. There is something to be said for a total immersion in the Pixie-dust fantasy for a period of time that can get trashed when you spend an hour in traffic on I-4 or I-Drive. If you want to combine it with music, there are clubs on the Boardwalk or at Downtown Disney. I do think D'Antonio's, in Celebration right outside of Disney is worthwhile, especially for the price/value, and downtown Celebration is kind of interesting in a Norman Rockwell kind of way. The only caveat I would make on the Disney list is with V&A. If you have eaten at places like The French Laundry, Daniel, etc. (a level and style it is at least attempting to mimic) it is not that good and you may be disappointed. As I said, I would do the Chef's Table, but I find that interesting. If you haven't eaten at those places, however, and you can afford it and don't mind dressing up, go for it. California Grill, FF, AP, etc. are trying to pull off high-end casual, and are more successful. BTW, I have friends who have said very good things about Shula's Steakhouse (in the Swan or Dolphin near EPCOT), though I have never been. I just got my reservations for Party for the Senses on Nov. 1st, so I'm pretty psyched. Still hoping someone cancels out of one of the Reserve Dinners so we can sneak in while we're there (Oct 29-Nov 12). For anyone planning on going, the Disney rep I spoke with said to start calling in October to snag cancellations. Again, highly recommend the Food and Wine Festival. Hope this helps some, Paula, and have a good time. Tony