Bux

John, your words are well spoken, but would you think less of me if I told you that I seek the company of people who are not my friends as well as those who are and even at times with people I know I'd not like to call a friend. Imagine how little I would have learned in school if I only chose the company of my friends. I may not be a Cabrales, (who I trust appreciates this reference as a compliment) but I find restaurants and meals can offer intellectual stimualtion as well as pleasure, or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I derive pleasure from the intellectual stimulation of an interesting meal in the same way as I might from a person with something interesting to say.

It seems to me that every one is making this much too personal. It's not about what interests any one person. The large tree that falls in the forest may well be of less interest to me than the little one that falls on my car, but the large tree makes more noise whether I'm there or not and whether I have any interest in it or not. I believe that some things are inherently more complex and therefore capable of greater analysis, whether or not they interest me.

What was the publication date of that book and are you interested in the chefs themselves or only of the restaurant? L'Oasis is not an uncommon name for a restaurant, but I'm pretty sure the one below is the one you want. Restaurant de la Pyramide (Vienne) The late Fernand Point is the legendary chef who put Vienne on the map with his restaurant. Currently back up to 2 stars under Patrick Henriroux Charles Barrier (Tours) Currently 1 star. Current chef is Hervé Lussault L'Auberge du Pere Bise (Talloires not far fron Annecy) Still owned and operated by the famility of the now deceased Bise. Currently 1 star. L'Oasis (La Napoule) L'Oasis is not an uncommon name for a restaurant, but I'm pretty sure the one below is the one you want. If I'm not mistaken, the orignal chef was Louis Outhier, or at least he's the one who brought fame to the location. Two brothers, Stéphane & François Raimbault, are chef and pastry chef now. Currently 2 stars. L'Oustau de Baumaniere (near Les Baux-en-Provence) Currently 2 stars. Current chef is Jean-André Charial who is, I believe, a grandson of the chef who earned the 3 stars. Le Moulin de Mougins (in Mougins) Currently 2 stars. Roger Vergé is still the chef

Cabrales, my guess is that few people have done the research you've done when they first visit a three star restaurant. Lizzee, it is nice not to have to think the meal though and let the chef serve you professionally. I will also admit to having ruined my own meals by trying to cram too many of the wrongs dishes into one meal. I've been educated by waiters and chefs in my day, but it's still hard to improve on a chef's selection as an abstract selection of courses to make a meal.

I guess raising a kid in NYC has it's upsides. You rarely had to chauffer kids around. I didn't have to go to MacDonald's. They could go on their own at a fairly early age. It saves face, defuses the issue and allows you to make the point without making it an issue. It also drops the ball in the kid's lap early about making their own decisions. I didn't like the food. It wasn't a moral issue like drugs or cigarettes. Wine was a different thing. We liked wine, you want to drink wine, "fine," but you have to mix it with water until you're older. A teaspoon of wine in a goblet is already an illicit pleasure and may have helped defuse the issue later on, but that's hard to say.

Oh goody, because I beg to disagree. Even here there's often less interest in the really interesting topics.

I'm not sure if I should do something about this or not, but it seems worth quoting. Hell, I'm even at a loss to pick the correct icon.

Sure, and still have time for lunch. Once again "interesting" has many relative positions along the scale and maybe not all of them are related to "capable of analysis." Scrambled eggs are among the most abused of all the techniques of haute cuisine. Then again I don't know that I always want the finesse of haute cuisine in my breakfast scrambled eggs. At a certain point I just notice the absence of truffles or caviar. Nevertheless for the all the talent and dedication to excellence required to produce great scramble eggs, it is a limited topic for discussion. Is a great haiku more or less interesting than a great novel? I'd suggest not, but I'd also suggest there was more to analyze in the novel. This is not to argue that one couldn't write about either for the rest of one's natural born days. What we're discussing perhaps is just how much we'd like to hear about different things. Haute cuisine is "high" and apart from plain old French food. I would argue that Mexican home cooking can be every bit as complex as cuisine grandmere in France and every bit as worth of analysis, but the analytical cooks are doing the haute cuisine and not the other two. I'm not sure of my point other than to clarify the rules of the game or the boundaries of the playing field. We may not all be playing the same game here, however.

Indeed that's all it takes for this thread, and many others online, to go on endlessly--and I mean that in the best possible way. It may keep us from reaching a conclusion and it may drive guys who need to win arguments absolutely nuts, but it's probably a factor in what keeps eGullet so interesting. Seriously though, I think that was a good part of Plotnicki's point, even if he may have been quoted out of context by another Steve who loves a good argument--excuse me I meant to say discussion--the potential for analysis make one subject better than another for an analytic discussion. That doesn't mean we're all of the same eagerness to find that sort of discussion interesting. Afterall, Wharhol made a career out of his interest in "boring."

I've just touched on this subejct in the I'm Mrs. Inkling thread with two separate posts. To a certain extent you need to make it a non issue to defuse food as a tool of rebellion. To a greater extent you need to set an example of wWhat do you eat, how and when do you eat it. Our daughter was an avid eater of most things. All people have some dislikes and some favorites. Don't force the issue when you come across a dislike and don't pander to it. Dinner was the highlight of our day and we avidly looked forward to restaurant meals, although that usually meant Chinatown in the first decade of her life. We were broke most the time, but she took chicken sandwiches on homemade challah to school and there were always a few cornichons in the bag with sandwiches made of homemade paté. By the time we could afford an occasional meal in a really fine restaurant when she was in her early teens, we made it a point to include her. For all that, she still referred to us as the food snobs and hung in the fast food joints with her posse in high school as appropriate to the age. Perhaps it was telling that for all that, she rarely turned down an invitation to join us for a good dinner out. Lizziee's advice not to force the issue is absolutely critical. It may, in fact, be applied to as many issues that arise in raising a child as you possibly can. It's curious that both Lizzee's son and my daughter have both elected to pursue careers arising out of an interest in food. Be careful about how much of an interest you instill in your kids.

Lizziee, I didn't mean to paint you into a corner on the issue of ordering degustatcion menus. We're probably of similar minds on this issue. I tend to assume the tasting menu is a special work of the chef's art, whether or not it has a house speciality. In fact I harbor a parallel fear of Marcus' about tasting menus, but mine is about specialties. If Marcus worries that "the menu allows for advance preparation and establishing mini-assembly line processes which take away from the ultimate perfection of the dish," I worry that the chef's specialties have become boring for both the chef and the kitchen to prepare and may suffer as a result. Certainly the regular client is less likely to order them and the critics as well are likely focused on the new and thus it may be easy for a kitchen to allow these dishes to slide. Of course this depends on how "specialties" is defined. Nevertheless, whether or not a "menu" (in the French sense of menu) has the specialty of the house or not, I think it's an expression of the chef's art of preparing an integral meal. Another reason I'm loathe to ask for substitutions. I find it just a bit like asking for a substitution of garnish. As I see the plate as a whole, I also see the menu as a whole work. In any event, that's not a rule either. Ideally, I'd like to sit down and converse about food in the abstract with the chef and then have him feed me. I don't think I've ever quite done that, but I suppose I've approached that situation in the abstract on occasion. I've been fed by a chef who knows me once in a while and of course what he sends out is more influenced by what excites him rather than my tastes if he's an artist.

Puff pastry would not be a good example in my case for several reasons, but that's not the point. I am as interested in reading about boiling eggs as anything else and would eagerly read good advice on the subject, but would I care to listen to a bunch of food professionals (articulate chefs in particular) disucss boiling eggs as much as I would like to hear them discuss the making of gratins. Sure you can analyze anything if you're bright and articulate, but why bother. What I think Steve P. is saying is that some things lend themselves to analysis better than others. I suspect there's some subjective element in all this, but on the whole it seems rather obvious. This is an odd thread in that Plotnicki is defending a view that makes so much sense to me as it's almost based on a textbook definition of the terms, and most everyone else is going to great lengths to find loopholes and stretch the terms to find an issue to take. Admittedly there's some poetic justice perhaps.

I believe it's because of a post that contains a very long line without a space. My guess is that if the "formula" had placed a space before and after each "*" we'd not have that problem. It's not too late for the poster to edit his contribution and see if that fixes things.

I think you prove Plotnicki's point by noting that to make an analytic post on corn on the cob you want to bring in the "whole subject" and histories of cultures and civilizations. Steven doesn't claim the history of the French Revolution--which may be responsible for restaurants as we know them today in the western world--is necessary to analyze potato gratins. It's in the food and in the preparation of what's in the cooks hands.

I've often found crème fraîche so nutty and cultured that I had suspected there was cheese in a dish. I often prefer a red wine with hot foie gras unless the garnish is very sweet. Would your choice be sweet or dry and red or white. I've had some nice Jurançons, so I assume it's not just a preference for Sauternes, although it could be. Having recently returned from a trip where I experienced a level of sweetness not entirely to my subjective taste, but at the hands of chefs talented enough to make me attempt to put my subjectivity on hold, I may understand your position. I know you haven't dined at El Bulli or any of the starred places in Catalunya, but I seem to recall you writing about the Fat Duck in the UK. Did you find the food there to be sweet?

The burger may have helped forge a common identity and the export of MacDonald's franchises may be part of that identity, but one shouldn't overlook the infiltration of ethnic foods in our culture. In many parts of the world they crave New York pizza, not Italian pizza and I've heard of a few Italian restaurants in Spain that make the connection to NY's Little Italy rather than directly to the big boot across the Mediterranean. I'm not sure if this makes a point and maybe that all American burger is just a German Hamburg steak on a bun. I guess it's the bun that makes the frankfurter an American hot dog as well. Maybe deepdish Chicago pizza is like pizza on a bun. The Earl of Sandwich might roll over in his grave if he thought I was suggesting that adding bread, made it American.

An interesting point and one upon which I'd like to reflect. I'm not sure when I convey my displeasure and when I chose to suppress it. There's the issue of being sure I'm right and then there's the issue of not caring to make a scene (especially if I have doubts about my own opinion). This doesn't even apply to those restaurants where, in spite of the solicitations of the staff, I don't expect they really care much about what I think. Cabrales, I'm curious to know if you finished your portion of foie gras. It doesn't sound as if it was a large portion and I suppose you could have finished it in the few bites it would have taken to ascertain your reaction. Had you not finished a dish so early in the dinner, I'd have been very surprised if no one asked if it pleased you or not. I agree that it's an odd situation. If the restaurant agrees it was off, you're going to get excellent attention from that point on, but it they don't agree, it may work against you in subtle ways even if they're unintentional ways. I think you'd agree that the restaurant would prefer to have a diner confront them with the opportunity to explain, defend themselves and otherwise please the diner rather than avoid the direct confrontation and suffer the ill effects of bad word of mouth later. Nevertheless, many, if not most, of us would find it easier to avoid the confrontation and feel free to speak our minds later--so understand that I'm not being too critical of your actions. Cabrales and Lizziee have both written well and frequently here and I read their posts with some picture of the individual and their background. Marcus, you write knowledgeably and convincingly about fine dining in France here. I hope we see more of your posts and I look forward to the time when I can appreciate your perspective better. I noticed your comment that "one obtains the best of most restaurants in France by ordering from the carte not the menu." I seem to recall that Lizzee recently suggested the opposite was true at three star restaurants and you indicate that your position on this is controversial. Steven Shaw has said that he avoids degustation menus on a first visit unless they feature the chef's signature dishes. I rather felt he was speaking about North American restaurants when he said that however. I don't know if I have a strong position on this. I'm inclined to play it be ear and my mood may have more to do with how I order than a set philosophy, but it's an interesting question. We might start a separate thread on this issue if anyone has more to say or good reasons to offer in support of either position, or even good questions to raise on the issue.

More or less the right place. I mean this is the right board on the site, but it would be best to start a new thread so your comments will be more likely to be noticed by someone interested in morrocan joint in bay ridge.

Discussing doesn't have to be analyzing, but that's precisely the argument shaw was seting up by quoting Plotnicki. It doesn't discount the interest on other levels. I think the references to green tea and potato gratins were misleading and probably introduced because Plotnicki had certain specific points on his mind. I think "level of subtlety and variance" is what is the context that separates "fine" from "cheap" and that's the essence of the point. How many can really say there's as much to analyze in foods that lack sublety and variance as in those with considerable subtlety and variance.

Alas, like the bargain priced oranges at the store next door to the one with the high priced oranges, the luncheon menu that's less expensive is often far cheaper in terms of quality or "bang for the buck" than it is less expensive. While I can't say that's always the case with great conviction as I've only had both the the degustation and "bargain" luncheon menu at one restaurant in Paris, I can say that although the prix fixe lunch was less than half the price of the degustation, it had about half the number of courses and little of the finesse or pizazz of the high priced meal. I thought most of the bargain price went towards covering overhead and I've been less than keen on those bargains since. I wonder if they're not best left for the tourists who are more interested in saying they've been there than in actually enjoying the chef at his best. On the other hand, many years ago, we had a superb prix fixe lunch in Nice that was easily worth twice what we paid at the Chantelcler. I suppose we will always get in trouble making hard and fast rules about this sort of thing.

Lizzee, I just finished reading Michael Ruhlman's account in The Soul of a Chef of the night The French Laundry had fifty-six different dishes listed on the menu. That didin't include VIP canpés and other dishes the kitchen may have been prepared to send out that night. 100 dishes over a season doesn't sound so formidable after that. The couple with whom we had dined managed to get to El Bulli the week before as well. They were concerned about possible duplication of courses and were assured the menu changes every week--or it might have been that they were assured there'd be a completely different menu by the time they returned in a week. Nuances get lost as messages get repeated. I guess we shared three out of the ten "snacks" with the Browns. I only spot a single repeat among the eight tapas and another duplication of a "plato." Our two desserts were different from theirs. Nevertheless one finds duplication of technique and perhaps of concept. The fish flavored chips Robert had, call to mind our fried pork skins. Robert used the word "frivolous." I implied a family resemblance to snack food. Of corse that's the resemblance Bernachon's Palets d'Or bonbons have to candy bars. I was sorry to hear that Robert found the concept behind Tagliatelle de Consome a la Carbonara better than the actual taste. I found the idea of tagliatelle of aspic just fantastic and the execution was stunning to the eye and mind. My friend with the fish allergies had this as a substitute dish in 2000 and although I begged for a taste and loved the bite I got, I didn't have enough to offer an informed opinion. How one takes to this dish may depend on how one regards aspic. At the time, I thought the tiny cheese cubes were cut from young parmegiano, but it's possible that my memory is based on what I expected from a la Carbonara.

At the book party for Pierre Herme's chocolate dessert cookbook (the one written with Dorie Greenspan if there are any others) they were serving a rosé Champagne and a Banyuls. I grabbed a glass of the bubbly and thought I'd have an aperatif before the desserts came out, but the chocolate goodies started coming fast, and furiously. I couldn't get rid of the Champagne fast enough. As for the Banyuls, I recall having refills. I'm not sure if I should blame the chocolate for making me drink too much or the Banyuls for making me eat too much. Herme, on the other hand, touted the Champagne highly and urged guests to try it with the chocolate.

I thing I've said just about the same thing often enough online. It's just so much more interesting to talk about excellence and refinement. The food of inspired and creative chefs is so much more likely to inspire me to think about and consquently to discuss what I have eaten. Plotnicki, on the other hand, shoots himself in the foot when he waxes so rhapsodical about sliders from White Castle. Okay, he's not so analytical. Then again those holes in the patties ...

Pan Am used to be very generous about offering free first class tickets to travel agents. Remember Pan Am?

John, I can't recall using a fresh pig's foot for cooking. I know we've used calves' feet and ham knuckle and I have scraped some meat off the ham knuckle to add to split pea soup for instance. Jon, I'll have to look out for stuffed trotters. As Pierre Koffman is getting credit for inventing this dish, am I as likely to find stuffed trotters in France as well as in the UK? I am more likely to find myself in the former country, although I must say I found the UK quite hospitable in my brief stay.