Bux

Fat Guy wasn't writing a guide book and he wasn't censoring one. He job was to edit. It would strike me that he would be overstepping his bounds if he were to edit out recommendations on subjective grounds. I think his note was the proper way to handle it. Most of the comments here should be directed to the author who didn't ask for anyone's opinion.

When was Fat Guy denied permission? When did he ask for it? He was calling--and I can only assume he was calling to verify phone numbers and address as Shopsin hung up on him before he could ask any question. Since when do we need to interpret rudeness as a request for anything? I hate analogies too, but let's assume I notice that the young woman next to me has left her purse on an adjoinging bar stool and that it's open. I turn to her and get as far as saying "Excuse me, but I couldn't help noticing .." when she blows smoke in my face and says "Fuck off." Where do we go from here. Should I care about her purse or the potential loss of her privacy from the guy who's eyeing her wallet and credit cards? Maybe she thinks he's much more attractive than I am and that blowing me off is her way of letting the other guy know she's discerning. Maybe the open purse is her way of offering her phone number.

The RTR was never really my kind of place, but I have some fond memories of the few occasions I happened to be there. I missed the RTR I knew and I missed it most when I set foot into the place Leroy had created. By now I'm used to not having it around. It's a subjective thing. Someone could create an exact replica of the old RTR in New Jersey and it might work for some and not for others. Here we had the same location and name, but a different feel and ambience. Jack Trout, president of Trout & Partners, a marketing strategy firm hit it squarely on the head when he was quoted by Asimov as saying "My feeling is, they had a well-known name that had no meaning anymore." Asimov himself had these words to say. "Mr. LeRoy's error, many say, was to try to reinvent the Russian Tea Room along Tavern's lines." [That's Tavern on the Green, another of Leroy's restaurants that be and large drew a different crowd than the old Russian Tea Room, in my opinion.]

And I remember the days when a good cigar was just a smoke.

No surprise that this was a place I passed on many occasions without a need to feel curious about. Then I read Trillin's artcle and had to stop and read the menu posted outside, which was much like the label on a bottle of one of Dr. Bronner's liquid soaps. I was curious if the menu on the exterior was posted as an inducement or warning. From what I've read [Note: Tony Bourdain will appreciate that I've never actually eaten there, nor would I let that stop me from commenting here] Kenny Shopsin needs people to complain about more than he needs privacy. I'm willing to bet he really enjoyed hanging up on Fat Guy. It probably made his day. Misanthropes open restaurants all the time. Hermits do not. People go to bars all the time and they frequently just go for a drink, but they never go for privacy. Fat Guy, is this an all inclusive listing of restaurants like the yellow pages or a selected list of restaurants? If the latter, does the restaurant meet the criteria for selection?

Well at least they got the accent down pat. Sshhh, I won't tell them if you don't.

The problem with reviewers is that sooner or later I find a review that seems so far off the mark that I loose all interest in going out of my way to read that person's reviews and pay scant heed to them when they're in front of my face. I can still remember some of the restaurants that made my lose faith in one reviewer or another. I can't place my loss of faith in Patricia Wells on any single review, it's been a cumulative thing. I am looking forward to Eric Asimov's reviews in the NY Times. He's certainly paid his dues ferreting out cheap places.

The restaurant doesn't serve tea friendly food, but do you have any idea of the markup on tea?

Most restaurants are unique. Certainly the multistarred and especially the three starred restaurants are unique and one could not substitute for another, but many of us trying to decide on a two week trip will not get to eat at all the restaurants we'd like to and have to make some selection. There's no question in my mind, that in terms of general value, one does better in the provinces than in Paris and far better in Spain than in France. However the three star restaurants are few and far between in Spain.

Well, I have mixed feelings here as I'm as cheap as the next guy, and my intentions are to raise issues as much as argue for one side--I think the marketplace will decide what lolicies restaurants will take on this. What I believe I said was that restaurants have to establish consistent policies. If they don't, they chance running afoul of the law on discrimination charges as well as risking bad publicity. So yes, after the policy is set, the motivations of the diner should matter little. There are always exceptions. In determining the policy however, the restaurant should consider all the ramifications of the policy and the reasons diners might want a corkage policy.

I've been to wine bars in NY. The suck you in with bargains on the bottles and then charge outrageous prices for little tasting plates. Now if I could bring in my own food and pay a nominal charge for a clean plate and fork, it would be a different story.

You're starting to clarify a point and it's one I raised earlier. Does it make a difference why the diner wants to bring his own wine? Does it matter how the restaurant justifies it's policies on corkage? We're not all talking about the same thing and a restaurant has to establish a policy that covers all points. I think there's a great need for a restaurant to have a consistent policy. This means that the policy may not make sense to some from their perspective as their reasons are so much more compelling to them. If the restaurant has la Mouline '89, but not la Turque, would I be justified in bringing the latter? Just how unique must my bottle be?--or for those who don't appreciate degrees of absolutes--what makes my bottle unique? Leaving aside everyone's natural desire to beat the system and save a buck, a restaurant is a place of business selling food and drink. It will do what it has to do to make a profit and to maximize profits. It will do what it feels is best no matter what any of us says, unless we can provide a better model. If diner "A" won't eat at restaurant "X" whose loss is it? I've long argued that a restaurant with better wine pricing would encourage me to dine there more often and spend more money on both food and wine. Both Gramercy Tavern and Eleven Madison Park are perfect examples of that. Unfortunately I've seen the bottom rise considerably as of late at GT. The problem is that most diners are oblivious to the wine prices when deciding where to eat, while they consider the price of a main course or of a three course meal. So, we encourage high markups on wine by what we do as opposed to what we say. Obviously that's an editorial "we" and we may not be the "we" I'm talking about.

The Swiss view you as social sluts. Of course in Maine they regard the Swiss as "easy."

One other point. I've always been conscious of the fact the price of a bottle of wine in a restaurant is always way more expensive than a comparable bottle (same producer, same appellation, same vintage, etc.) in a wine shop. While that's always been a sticking point with me, recent posts here on quality and price have been quite convincing that the bottle in the restaurant is just plain better.

You want an honest answer? Actually the Wagyu beef issue is different and requires greater accommodation by the kitchen staff than a BYO Bottle will by the wine staff. Many restaurants will handle the BYO Beef and the cost to the diner will vary. If you're a regular and considered a friend of the restaurant, your dish may be free and garnished without cost by the restaurant--or you may be charged as if the restaurant supplied the beef as well as the service. I see no legitimate moral or ethical reason any diner should not feel free to bring his bottle and expect the restaurant to charge a corkage equal to what they would charge for the wine, if they had it on their list. This is capitalism at its best. Everyone gets sort of what he needs. The restaurant gets a fat profit, the connoisseur gets the ideal combination of wine and food and the cheap guy trying to beat the system gets screwed. I'm the judge of what everyone needs. I'm entitled. Everyone else seems to believe they have the moral high ground here, even those whose arguments are about the right to save a buck. This whole conversation is not exactly on a solid foundation. For all of Fat Guy's attempts to distinguish policies he feels are relevant at different types of restaurant, we've hardly begun to acknowledge what the court might speak of as community standards. Traditions (and overhead costs) are quite different in NYC than they are in suburban New Jersey or California. Thus I have the feeling that as I read posts, everyone has a dfferent model in mind for a very different situation. In fact I didn't drop in on this thread for some time as my general feeling is that BYO is just not very applicable to NYC. Perhaps it's just that I know people in the industry and have an inclination to see things from the restaurateur's side, but what bothers me about this thread is the contentious attitude some have towards restaurants. It's as if the restaurant industry owes us some right to demand it change. Some clothing shops charge for alterations. Some don't. Of course I'm free to take my pants and have them shortened elsewhere at my own expense, but I don't gripe that other guys are happy with off the rack lengths. I also don't expect them to let me use their sewing machines to do my own alterations. You know what? If I were to open my own restaurant, I'd think of some drastically revolutionary ways to price my meals to insure each diner paid his fair share and got a fair break (as I judge it to be fair). Odds are that my restaurant would fail just for breaking with the established pattern of business in my area. (Fat Guy has on other occasions already addressed the other reasons I'm unfit by temperament to host a restaurant.) Restaurateurs are working on a model that works for them. Expectations that they should succumb to any argument you see fit to make about BYO are just irrelevant. Beachfan's attitude seems more than fair. I can't believe any restaurant owner would be offended by what he's posted here and yet I can understand why a restaurant would not be willing to allow BYO at any cost. Any restaurant with a $35 bottle of wine on its list is not going to be ridiculed in the press because it also has wines in the upper four figures. On the other hand, the news that someone paid $200 to drink his own wine at a restaurant will make headlines someplace, regardless of the fact that the diner saved $500 and the restaurant can't move an inventory it's safely stored in air conditioned quarters in a very high rent district for a decade. When Daniel needs Plotnicki and Beachfan as customers, maybe they'll change their policy. The truth is that collectors of fine wine are a small market and only a very small percentage of those may not eat and entertain at home often enough to consume their collection at home. To the extent that Daniel allows those people to bring bottles to the restaurant, they spite themselves as there's a catering arm of the operation that will come to your home and cook for you or your guests. They are more than willing to fly across the country to serve a couple of diners and you may serve your own wines. For me, any restaurant is about its food first. For others the wine is foremost. I see no reason a chef can't write off the latter group. He's offering his cooking, first and his cellar next. If you really appreciate his cooking, you'll drink your wine at home and find a bottle in his cellar. If you can do better elsewhere, either you don't appreciate the cooking or you have no reason to appreciate it. Needless to say, the model for a restaurant, at least in NYC and France, is not a place where people drink their own wine. Where you find exceptions, enjoy them for what they are.

Any indication that the owner is a member of a family reputed to settle their arguments out of court?

I think it's probably more dependent on the nature of the guide. Will it hurt the guide's credibility not to have the place listed? My inclination is to let him have his privacy, if that's what he wants, but your first obligation is to the consumer who will pay the big bucks for your research. I believe MIchelin will not list a restaurant at its request.

Unfortunately some of demands of running a restaurant and a business drew Dan and Mike away from their computers at an inopportune time for this eGullet Q&A session. Dan has told me that he expects to return as early as this evening to continue replying to comments.

Well that's the thing about symbols, they tend to be more symbolic than real. It's like the presidency. How often is the office held by a significant person.

Apple pie. Apple pie is more American than hamburger. For one thing it's dessert. Popcorn is also a better candidate, especially as it's a snack food and can be eaten while watching television or in the movies

It was in Japan where I first encountered the starch sandwich. Potato salad (with mayonnaise) on a hot dog bun was not an uncommon snack. That would go a long way in explaining why the Japanese artist/journalist with whom we were having breakfast in Madrid, found the potato salad sandwiches a perfect accompaniment to his ham and eggs. It gets worse. In France there are all sorts of awful sandwich shops which serve French fries as part of the filling in the sandwich. My understanding is that the British need nothing other than fries and bread for a sandwich. While I have little but disdain for all of the above, inluding that which I've not tasted, one of my local bakeries, the Sullivan Street Bakery, makes a nice thin foccacia, which they call a pizza, with a topping of sliced potatoes and rosemary with no sauce. It's excellent. All of that is extraneous to what brought me here--why are we always so quickly off target? In-Flight Dining is an oxymoron.

Leslie Brenner's latest book, The Fourth Star: Dispatches From Inside Daniel Boulud's Celebrated New York Restaurant, is a behind-the-scenes look at every aspect of how a great restaurant is run, from how the reservationist decides what time slot to offer a caller, to how the waitstaff coordinates with the kitchen to send out perfectly timed courses, to how new cooks are hired and paid. Leslie will be happy to answer questions about how she came to write the book, how she did her research, what her intentions were in writing the book, and what chef Daniel Boulud's reaction has been, as well as any aspect of how a four-star restaurant is run. Gael Greene reviewed the book in last week's New York magazine, writing, "I gobbled the book in one sitting." Positive or negative, just about every critic agrees: they can't put the book down. In any case, for anyone interested in food and serious dining, The Fourth Star is quickly becoming the must-read of the summer. Leslie Brenner is the author of four previous books about food and wine, including the award-winning American Appetite: The Coming of Age of a Cuisine, as well as the highly acclaimed novel Greetings from the Golden State (Los Angeles Times Best Books of 2001). A finalist for the Prix Medicis, the coveted French award for fiction, Brenner has also received a James Beard Foundation Journalism Award for her magazine writing. Recently transplanted from New York City, she now lives in Los Angeles, where she is a Contributing Editor for Travel + Leisure. Newsday review. Barnes & Nobel page with Kirkus and Barnes & Nobel reviews. The author and publisher have graciously agreed to award five copies of the book to members. Names will be selected at random from those participating in the Q&A.

Agreed. On the road I go with the local consensus. In Japan and the UK, I will drive on the left, with nary a complaint about it not being the right side of the road.

Jaybee, I fear it's worse than that. The rise of the very popular and successful--in trms of sales--Zagat surveys, indicate a willingness to leave it up to fellow novices to judge what is good and bad by consensus.

In Paris, Ducasse has a special menu printed up for handing out--or was that just the take out menu I got?