Bux

Define your terms. Sometimes I find Balthazar a fascinating place and as you seem to indicate, the food is good--or at least okay--which is more than I can say for a lot of other places that charge as much. Perhaps the key words are "plan an evening." I kind of like it best late in the evening when the crowd is thinning out, or anytime I can get in without reservations far in advance. It's also a short walk from home for me. Would I make a reservation a month in advance and eagerly anticipate the evening to come? I doubt it. As for the scene, I really like that it's well lit and that you can see across the room. It's a very democratic crowd in it's way. Judging by the crowd, it appears that anyone can get in, but I'd also guess that when I spot a celebrity, their publicist knows who to call at the last minute. I like the young couples with infants in high chairs at tables stacked with platters of fruit de mer and the very unsophsiticated kids on dates as well as the tourists. There is a sense of relaxed pleasure at the table that is so much more French than the decor and the pseudo nicotine stained walls.

There will always be young turks and there will always be those who long for the good old days.

I thought it had quite a bit to do with the subject at hand, but I suspect you've made a convincing argument that we've gone around in circles long enough not listening to each other.

Throughout France, the multistarred categories are reserved for dining rooms of comfort and food of finesse. In Paris this may be even more the case. A two star meal in Paris is unlikely to be inexpensive. Consider that both service and taxes are included in the price and that many, if not all, the two star restaurants in Paris might well be four stars in NYC, the prices are not so unreasonable. Although Michelin warns diners not to confuse inexpensive one star restaurants with more expensive one star places, the same might be true of two star places, at least to some extent. Clearly at the upper ranges of luxury and finesse, there will be a point of diminishing return for all but the wealthiest diner. If one finds the food and service at the Bristol worthy of two stars, I suspect it will be considered a good value. The least expensive two star restaurant in Paris seems to be Les Muses in the Hotel Scribe. Have any of our members eaten there? Does anyone have information besides Patrice?

The old Hotel de la Cote d'Or first achieved fame and fortune when it was a convenient stopping point on the drive from Paris to Nice. Of course it wouldn't have become a three star restaurant if it were not for Alexandre Dumaine and his exceptional food, but it's also unlikely a chef of that talent would have stayed in a three street town if it wasn't so well conveninetly located to traffic. When faster cars eliminated the need for a stop and the autoroute left Saulieu off the main route from Paris to the south, there was little reason for anyone to stop there, except for the food, which was up and down, but never three star after Dumanine passed away, until Loiseau brought it back. When Loiseau got his third star, it was the first time that an inn that had fallen from three star grace, regained that rank. The problem was that the town was on the way to nowhere and had nothing in the way of resort facilities. It's not even a particularly charming place, although there is a church with incredible romanesque capitals. It was too far to drive from Paris for just lunch or dinner, but close enough for a romantic weekend with great food. It's also convenient enough to the rest of Burgundy to serve as a base for sightseeing or business. It was Loiseau's dream to remake the inn as a destination spot. To that end he sunk lots of borrowed money into building not only a larger dining quarters, but a new wing of luxurious suites and rooms. Some years back he still had a group of very inexpensive rooms that were not part of the Relais & Chateaux, but still under the same roof. The rooms were small and reminiscent of a monk's cell and the WC's were flushed with an electric pump, but they were clean and otherwise pleasant. I wonder if they are still available. With such a focus on being a weekend retreat perhaps it's understandable that traffic is light in the middle of the week. Looking at the R&C web page for Loiseau, I see there's a very significant difference in price for the rooms on the weekend and on weekdays. For the traveler passing through Burgundy, there's a good savings in planning on stopping here in the middle of the week.

I see..... why didn't someone explain this sooner? Bigbear, Welcome to eGullet.

I've run across my "notes," from May 2000. They are little more than the menu with brief description of the dish, but they may be interesting to compare with the more recent meal enjoyed by thelastsupper. We had lunch. I don't know if that makes much of a difference. There were eight savory courses and two desserts to what was listed as the Gran Menu de Chef. There were other set menus available. I don't know if this was the grandest menu, but it may have had more of his specialties than any other menu. I won't make many comments as the details are apt not to be clear enough for me to embellish the notes. 1. Aperatif of celery root puree with bacon "chips" and parmesan cheese. 2. Soft boiled (coddled) quail egg with a delicate curry cream sauce and a foam, and fresh broad beans. 3. "Ravioli" of gambas with a ragout of cepes. The gambas were flattened to the thickness (or thiness, if you will) of a sheet of pasta and used to form the "ravioli." This seems to be the signature dish still served. I seem to recall being taken by this dish. 4. Giant spider crab (buey de mar) layered and flanked by a puree of peas with creme fraiche and then a stripe of crab bisque at the left and right edges of this composition. A bowl of intensely green puree of fresh peas was served separately alongside the dish. I remember thinking the stripes of sauces were very painterly. 5. Gambas a la plancha (plancha is a flat iron or cast iron griddle). The grilled prawns/large shrimp were served on a bed of sofrito--concasse of tomatoes and cooked onions. It was interesting to have simple preparations interspersed with the more creative and complex dishes. The two styles highlighted each other quite successfully for me. 6. Sea cucumber (espardenas) with deep fat fried chips of thinly sliced artichoke hearts (crujiente de arcachofa). Elsewhere on this board, it's been expalined that these delicate and somewhat rare Mediterranean sea creatures bear no resemblance to the sea cucumbers we see in Chinatown in NYC. They are more like shrimp and tender squid in texture and flavor and something to look out for in Catalonia. 7. Rouget (salmonetta) with scallops a la plancha on a bed of mashed potatoes. 8. Foie gras with summer mushrooms and a reduction of port wine sauce. I distincly remember this dish as the foie gras was an impressive hunk rather than the slice I expected. The exterior was charred and the center just short of liquid. Pre-dessert. Cream topped with a caramel sauce served in a small wine glass Dessert. "Orange salad" composed of skinned orange sections with orange sauce served with orange fritters with a molten chocolate center. Petits fours followed dessert. I was a bit left out of the wine discussion as my wife conferred with the sommelier mostly in Spanish. She made the point that she liked albarinos, but preferred to have alocal wine and did not like oaked whites. The sommelier recommended the Torres Fransola which I believe is largely sauvignon blanc. This was followed by an Albet i Noya red from Penedes. I recall cabernet, but the notes say tempranillo. The producer was one that had been recommended to be me by others and I was happy to see it recommended by the sommelier. We enjoyed both wines and, as I recall, thought they were very reasonably priced. I regret we were not able to include a return visit this spring, but El Raco de Can Fabes has to sit at the top of my list of restaurants to which I must return along with Gagnaire, Veyrat, Roellinger and a few others.

Assuming he can get a reservation for dinner ...

I thought that was an old Catskill's hotel, prison, summer camp, etc, joke. The food's terrible and the portions are so small.

Vesuvio sells bread. It's on Prince Street between West Broadway and Thompson Street. It's decent bread, but no match for the new boys in town. I haven't been in there in a while. The bread sticks and pepper biscuits were good. Tony Dapolito was very active in the local community board for many years. I believe he was chairman at one time, and always a staunch member of the community who was as approachable by those who were moving into SoHo when it was still industrial, as he was by the older South Village community.

Espai Sucre and not yet listed in Michelin. There was a big article on this place in the NY times last spring by Amanda Hesser. I believe the translation would be Sugar Space. The French regularly use the word space--espace--for a open gallery in which exhibits are held. If you're registered at the NY Times, click for the Espai Sucre article by Amanda Hesser and see if this link works for you. If not, In Barcelona, One Has Dessert and Then Dessert was published in the NY Times on April 17, 2002 and perhaps you can do a search. Gaig (or maybe El Gaig, but "Gaig" in the Michelin) 1 star.

El Celler de Can Roca? They didn't require a credit card to reserve my table. We made our reservations well in advance, but I don't recall exactly how far. We tried to change our reservation from dinner to lunch, about a week or so in advance and they were already full. That was for a Saturday. El Bulli is the tough one. I don't know when they start taking reservations for the coming season, but it seems they are sold out early for the season which lasts from April to October. Both of these places are out of town and neither have rooms.

I would suggest a stay in Girona, both for sightseing and the two Michelin star Celler de Can Roca. I would also suggest a few typical Catalan meals--or at least one--for background. Hispanya in Arenys del Mar seems to come up frequently as the classic place for old fashion Catalan dining. The room was packed for lunch the day we ate there. The crowd was local. Barcelona, of course, is a whole trip in itself. We pretty much did this trip last June. It was hot as hell in the middle of June. Early May would be better and April probably even better Is there a serious interest in this?

As much as I hate to shed any image members may have of me as someone who goes to great lengths and pains to avoid a buffet, I have taken a fair number of breakfasts at better hotel buffets. Some have been fairly rewarding, at least in Europe. Even so, I generally restrict participation to those hotels where the breakfast is included in the price of the room either as standard procedure or as a "perq" for my wife the travel agent. The vast variety of offerings at the top tables will ensure a decent breakfast even if one has to avoid the eggs. A special award has to go to the Palace Hotel in San Francisco, for the quality of the poached eggs on the steam table, however. They looked unbelievably superb so I took one. I went back for two more. Normally, I'd skip the reasonably expensive buffet and have a cup of espresso and a roll somewhere, but we had an early plane to catch and thought it would be wise fo fill up before boarding. By the way, I've also learned that, at least in much of Europe, they will be happy to bring you an espresso in lieu of the standard breakfast coffee if you ask and as often as not, you can get a freshly prepared egg and not have to deal with the mess on the steam table. I am amused and enlightened by your use of the buffet as a defense mechanism.

You've been in the neighborhood quite a while. I've almost forgotten about those onion focaccias. Sullivan Street Bakery makes nice biscotti.

My understsanding was that the Buffets de la Gare were real restaurants with table service and did not serve "buffet" style. I believe this is just another example of words changing their meaning as they come from France to the US. I don't recall exactly how a buffet differed from a restaurant or brasserie in France, but I suspect one generally took a three course meal ordered from the carte and brought to the table by a waitress. Some how, I have a recollection that perhaps one could eat non-stop--most restaurants in France served lunch for a few hours and then closed until dinner when they repopened for a few hours again. This would have served train travelers who might have reason to eat at odd hours. Can anyone verify this?

Adam, you're reading the wrong books or eating in the wrong homes.

A professional chef usually has some idea about the difference between the two. A serious home cook is usually clueless about the differences.

There's no question that a discussion about who's "the greatest" and who's "the most influential" in any field might make for two very different discussion, although there are always those who will push their favorites without regard to the topic at hand.

I have not eaten at the Bristol, but I have eaten at the little neighborhood restaurant that Eric Frechon owned and in which he cooked before coming to the Bristol. Assuming Frechon has the command of his Bristol kitchen in hand as well as he controlled his tiny kitchen at his earlier restaurant, I have no doubt you'll eat superbly well there. I have also loved the tasting menu at Carre des Feulliants, but have not been there in many years. Both of those would be high up on my own list for a two star meal in Paris.

In this thread of long and overlapping posts, let me quickly add that we've reached an understanding here, even if we differ on the likelihood.

Nonsense, and when you make state thse opinions as fact, you close the door on meaningful discussion. There you go again. Of course this is not a satisfactory asnwer. It just says your mind is made up and you're not open to new ideas on the subject. According to Showalter: Why should we believe you and not Adria. My guess is that Adria has had Robuchon's potatoes and understands them quite well. As for Robuchon's effect on what we all eat, my guess is that it's not had a great effect on the majority of eGullet members (as opposed to just those participating in this thread). My guess is that, even in this rarefied membership, a majority of the members will prefer Italian food to French and will regard Robuchon's potatoes as a dish in which the essence and flavor or potato is masked by the richness and taste of the butter beaten into them. Describe Robuchon's potatoes to the average diner in American and see how many people will react with an opinion that he's gone down a decadent path leading to an irrelevant dead end. To suggest, at this moment, that Robuchon's influence will be the greater one in ten years is silly. The super rich potato puree has probably had its day. My bet is that more French, American, Canadian and Spanish chefs have already been through Adria's kitchen than Robuchon trained; there has been more written about Adria than about Robuchon; and Adria is just beginning to influence the mainstread directly with his projects for NH Hotels. I wouldn't even have to like his food to acknowledge the direction of his career at this moment. To not appreciate his food is quite another thing. One should always be able to keep one's own preferences and to decry trends they can't deny.

Adria's food is an interesting subject of conversation, both at the table and afterwards among those who have had his food and those who haven't. The food drives conversation, but that conversation can also be a force that removes the food from it's primary sensory pleasure. That may be why the hikers I described earlier may have enjoyed their meal as much as, or more than, I did. I'll bet they didn't sit around the table taking the meal apart. That's also why my wife expressed an interest in eating there alone (or presumably, the two of us alone). Even more to the point for those who are interesting in the duscussion, but have not eaten there, we can share our thoughts, but we can't share the direct experience. You aren't really going to satisfied if I state that dinner at El Bulli was delicious even less than you will be satisfied by an account in full that only said dinner at la Pyramide in 1956 was delicious, but you will better understand the 1956 meal because its description will deal with foods you understand because they were precursors to what you eat today. In 2035, the description of dinner at El Bulli will make more sense to more people.

My favorite pastas sauce at this time of year would be fresh tomatoes (preferably peeled, seeded and roughly chopped) tossed in lots of butter for about five minues. Toss over hot pasta with chopped basil and grated romano cheese, but if you don't like raw tomatoes, that's another story. You might want to try some more interesting and very flavorful extra virgin olive oil, from a small producer, with garilc or without and some good quality parmesan cheese. Can't get anything faster than that. Most meat sauces really improve with long simmering, but you can freeze them to help amortize your preparation time.

I think all chefs try to make food taste better--better than everyone else, better than it did before they came along, better in some way. You might say all cooks try and make food taste better, or at least as good as they can. The problem I have with your post is that somehow you believe Adria isn't doing that as well. Were you complaining when chefs started to plate the food so it was more attractive? None of those chefs were saying "if it looks better they won't notice it tastes worse." I don't believe Adria is doing anything that is not about taste first. All of his food is about mouth sensation--or taste. He's just working in his laboratory on new ways to excite your taste buds. The target of his work is your mouth and not your mind. When a chef beats in garlic, butter, cream, olive oil and more butter you understand the process and the taste in one discription. I describe the process and you know how it tastes. Not so with Adria. He's breaking too much new ground and we can't understand the taste until it's in our mouth and as Fat Guy notes, there's no one around who can explain it to us, if it can be explained. You're focusing on the technique, but the chefs who have trained with Adria may be focusing on the food in their own restaurants.