paul o' vendange

Thank you all. I hadn't tried the pork until tonight, only heard from him his trouble was "dryness" the last few outings, so I was a bit thrown. I also have to ascribe...gabapentin?...to the temp issue, which should have flagged me. I find it funny that in all the years, I've never gone by internal temp, but rather feel, more or less, when braising, so hadn't thought about the temp issue...though I did do a headslap that we are talking about a recipe calling for such a low internal temp with a "sept-heures" roasting period (and not a seared loin, say), supposedly, so I should have noted it as odd. As it turns out, having tried it, it wasn't dry at all, and was actually very nice, if not fall-apart tender. Spot on in your prescription, a simple longer period and higher internal temp would have done the trick, and I advised him accordingly. Thanks. Thanks, too, on the many ideas otherwise. It's a big hole in what I do that I've never done a dry-rub method...always some variation on mirepoix, herbs and braise...but now I'm very intrigued.

Hi all - I have to admit it: I've never done a dry rub, outside of an achiote-based dusting on rack of lamb from one place I worked, over 20 years ago. I braise all the time, but am at a deficit with the technique for pulled pork, so would appreciate some thoughts. Basically, a friend employs two pork butts, dry-rubbed, sets oven to 250F, probe to 170F. He's getting flavorful but dry meat (if it wasn't tender, I'd suggest taking it further to 180 or, simply falling off bone...but it's dry, not underdone). My thought is simply to at least tent the meat for a good part of the time, if not outright braise it - temp is low and slow, but I think he's simply losing too much moisture in the dry roast, over this long a time. I know, though, that plenty people who do this all the time simply dry rub roast, with good results. Am I making a sophomoric space, and missing something obvious?

Zac, glad whatever I could offer was a help - I really do want to thank Jackal here (and the folks over at the Fresh Loaf) for his tremendous thread, really started me on a love of inquiry I haven't had in decades. Here's to your enjoyment! Paul

Zacky, sure, and thanks for the kind comment - but so much of the credit goes to our very own sourdough clinic, for so much of this. If you haven't come across this, I found it a fantastic resource: EG Sourdough Clinic One key thing I learned from the thread is the value of not knocking back the dough during bulk fermentation. The stretching of both glutens and entrapped bubbles was very interesting, to me, and an entirely new technique from all I remembered as a kid. If anything - and I know this is debated - I tend to try for entrapping additional air when folding over - I stretch and then "fwap" the dough a bit, to create a pocket of air, if possible, at each fold. Could be my being a former brewer...with aerobic phase of yeast being the generative phase, before going into anaerobic fermentation. I like a lot of growth in yeast, as opposed to dosing heavier at the start, because it's in growth/yeast budding and daughter cells that so much of the flavor by-products are kicked into the mix. Sorry if this is redundant information. Anyway, once a week I take a couple of tbsp of my starter, and add enough flour and water to make for a fairly thick, renewed starter (thin for a first feeding, but I toss a final amount of flour and refrigerate whenever I feel the starter is renewed appropriately..the thickness makes it "tough" for yeast, and slows metabolism accordingly...just a hunch, to keep the starter churning slow but steady until my weekly bake). I will repeat this process, if necessary (discarding all but a couple of tbsp., with a small reserve in case my "new" starter gets accidentally killed, toasted, etc.), if I have for whatever reason let the starter autolyze by staying dormant on depleted nutrients too long. To be honest, though, even when gone unfed for 3 weeks, and I detect a strong whiff of acetone and other staling compounds, I still get a renewed starter back pretty easily. Anyway, I'd encourage you to check out the above thread, if you haven't. I deviate very little from that - the only thing I did do differently is a 1 1/2 hour temper and final proofing, whereas Jack (Jackal10) gets fantastic bread by just dropping in his (I'm salivating) brick oven directly from the cooler. When I do that.....lol...I get what my wife affectionately calls "boob bread." For obvious reasons: (Ahem...on the right, compared to the left). Outside of that, my home oven has brick tiles down on the wire rack, I pull the bread for 1/2 hour, turn the oven to 500F, allow to preheat for 1 hour; bread then gets 1 1/2 hour total final proofing. When ready, I fill a wine bottle with about 1c of hot water - I previously heat the bottle so the water doesn't cool - stroke the tiles with a decent slathering of hot water via kitchen towel; drop the levain on a cardboard - yep, have never gotten around to getting a wooden one - peel, slash, drop in the oven and dump the water onto my now-fried iron crepe pan on a tile on the bottom. Drop immediately to 400, and pretty consistently go to 50 minutes, turning it with 15 minutes to go very quickly, as our apartment oven is crap and this aids an even crust browning. amount particulars: poolish: 2 tbsp starter, 1/2c KA bread flour, 3/4c water. dough: the above, added in toto to 22.5oz KA bread flour, 2.25oz rye, and 13 oz. water. My back is fried, so I am limited in my ability to knead and use a processor for a 25-30s mix, only. Per the thread, rest 1/2 hour, then add 1 1/2tbsp salt, re-mix an additional 25-30 seconds, avoiding warming both times. Toss into oiled bowl, every hour, stretch and "fwap" fold for 5 hours. Drop into floured banneton - mine is some straight canvas lining a wicker basket from a dollar store - retard for 12-18 hours, temper and proceed as above. I do want to stress I'm no baker, though it was my earliest cooking love (we're talking 8-9 years old...a, uh, fairly long time ago), so tap the expertise of Jackal's thread, and others, over yours truly's paltry contributions. I also love The Fresh Loaf - an entire sub-forum on sourdough and starter: The Fresh Loaf - Sourdough Have fun! Paul

Hi Heidi - I was piqued to look more into this, and think I am frozen in a time that is no longer current, very happy to say. I also need to be careful to say I was talking about a very limited area, the Channel Islands, my only direct experience. If my cursory read is right, since I left Ca. a long time ago, not only has there been enacted a much more stringent Channel Islands protected area standard, but the overall health of the species' population is indeed being monitored quite well, as you say, and signs seem good. Just came across this, from the Monterey Bay Aquarium....basically, an official "dive in!" (warning...PDF): Monterey Bay Spiny Lobster report My mistake...and very heartened to find out so. Now....I'm sweating some onions for an Americaine....

I used to night dive for these off the Channel Islands of S. Calif., but stopped as a matter of conscience when it became clear even then commercial and sport overfishing was a horrible problem...our local community college had a propagation program that was working hard with local regulatory and fishing interests to try to curb the depletion. That was close to 25 years ago...I shudder to think on the current situation off the Calif. coasts..and may explain the prices?

My best off the cuff guess would go to hydration, and a good, continued stretch and fold during bulk fermentation. I use KA bread flour, also have a rocking starter (typically fed once a week, then the night before, given a 12 hour head start, and in the morning the poolish is begun). 4 hour poolish ferment, 5 hour bulk ferment with stretch and fold every hour, 12-18 hour retardation, 1 1/2 hr. tempering and final proofing. By my calculations, I am up to low 80's hydration (83%), and do get a very open crumb. Oh, the main dough has about 9% rye flour, and the starter has a variable feed of anywhere from 50% KA white whole wheat to 100% KA bread flour. Haven't taken pics in a long time, but these are some older boules: I have always been relatively pleased with the texture (chewy, resilient, crackling crust), though, as these show, these earlier crumbs were pretty variably open (the pictured loaves also represent about a 70% hydration, whereas I'm currently into the low 80's, as mentioned....my bread has just gone more and more open over time). After screwing up my back, I've returned to baking, a first love as a kid...so take everything I've said with a spectacular grain of salt, since if I have been cooking a long time, I feel like a neophyte again when it comes to baking. But I'd shoot for a really wet dough, a decently proteinaceous flour to aid the gluten development sought by the mixing and folding techniques, and a long fermentation/retardation.

Can I toss in some apples into that pan afterwards, please, some good cheese, rustic bread and charcuterie, and a bruising cup or 3 of fire-brewed coffee? We've finally gotten the first real snap of autumn, in our neck of the woods....smoke, fire, bacon...you nailed my favorite time and feel of year, as well. Remerciements!

Late to the game (and many years away...another story)...but: Brown stocks, esp. duck and other game; levain boule, when it first drops on the stones (any yeast bread baking, for that matter - both the early, unique smell of the bread as it caramelizes locally on the stones, and the bake itself); braised lamb shoulder ballon, when the strings are first snipped and the hours of herbs tucked inside, aromatics and meat goodness are first released. Any braise, really, esp. now, with the trees turning and the nights dropping low. A full-blown mash, as barley starch converts to a beautiful complex of sugars; fresh, intense hops, the panoply of fresh citrus to effulgent floral.

Bosc will hold its shape well. Used commonly in baking.

Sorry! Should have read more carefully, thought you were looking for a means to showcase the peppers, but neglected you are doing a first/amuse. How about some sort of late summer/early fall puree...roast pepper, enriched with roast garlic and roasted walnuts, topped with creme fraiche or slivers of a somewhat nutty cheese, Jaz's Gouda, Ossau, Mahon, Asiago, Manchego? Can sit atop gluten-free crackers.

Tammy, this isn't a roasted pepper treatment, but it is an intensifying treatment with fresh peppers, enriched with a not modest amount of cream to smooth the palate and ease the vinegar. I use it with fish alot, but as the base for a nice vegetable timbale, croustade, etc., I enjoy it as well, there. This time of year, I'd tend more to roasted pepper like you're wanting, or a confit usage of some sort, but for what it's worth, my red pepper coulis: Red Pepper Coulis 4 red peppers, deseeded 2 cups sauvignon blanc (a fairly austere one, grass and mineral over high-ester, Marlborough-style wines) ¼ cup unseasoned rice wine vinegar* 4 cloves garlic, peeled 1 cup cream salt white pepper Blend peppers in blender with 1 ½ cups wine, vinegar, and garlic until thoroughly liquefied. Pour into saucepan and reduce to slurried paste over medium-low heat. Add remaining wine, deglaze, and reduce again. Add cream and thicken. Pass through chinois, season with salt and white pepper and reserve.

Thanks, Chris. You have also triggered me to hunt down (no pun intended) another guy here doing a great job with his pekins - big, beautiful ducks. We almost went with him, though I ultimately opted for muscovys from Christian Gasset, of Au Bon Canard (plug for Christian - a great guy, doing great work). By the way, say hi to Providence! Used to walk the shadowy halls of Trinity Rep as a conservatory student... I have been consistently using Brome Lake ducks, which are pekin ducks and readily available at a local store (East Side Marketplace for those in RI). The good Lac Brome folks don't trim off extra fat and skin (mais oui) so there's always enough, if barely at times. ←

It's really not that much work, either. Most of the time you are breaking down the duck for one reason or another, and if you grab all the skin and fat and use this method, you can get enough fat from a duck to confit the legs. I haven't bought any duck fat in my life. ← Chris, I'm curious on the breeds you use. I find this to be true (in boatloads) with moulard, usually true with muscovy, but I am always a bit shy with your garden variety pekin. I have used a variant of the method years, and agree, it is the way to get wonderful, pristine fat. With pekin, though, I find I don't usually have enough to confit the legs. Not a big deal, I top with good olive oil, but I do miss the gallons of moulard I used to obtain.

Beautiful, guys! Well, After my own heart, prawncracker. It 's a constant battle to balance the rib caps with the (heart of the) ribeyes, but immeasurably worth it. Both cuts, pure pleasure.

The talk of Steak Frites in the French forum is getting me hungry. I thought it might be interesting for folks to chime in with their favorite cuts, methods, sauces, sides, etc. I'll start. Mine's pretty straightforward - I like to use the ribeye cap - excised from an export rib. Salt, pepper, temper for a good hour or more. Pan roast, deglaze with white wine, add in shallot, thyme, reduce to glaze; pan sauce of veal stock, a bit of chicken stock, a bit of mustard. Pass sauce through a mini-chinois. Shoestring, twice-cooked yukon golds, small side of arugula salad, with "beet chips" - slow roasted "feuilles" of beets, bit of chevre. (I like the pepper of the arugular, the subtle sweetness of the beets, against the salt of the chevre, and slight tang of the beef and sauce). What's yours?

Kris, I've not had the tomme de Crayeuse - can you describe it a bit?

Hi all - before I chime in with my thoughts, anyone have any?

Lesa, I would agree, listen - mostly, listen to yourself. I applaud you for pursuing something, and having the courage to do so now.

I think this is true, and I think that reputation feeds two different streams in smaller areas: planning, and consumer demand. At least from my experience, limited as it was to being an owner-operator of an independent bistro in small town America. People there (the Upper Peninsula, Michigan) considered Applebee's fine dining (no hyperbole, nor disrespect - it is what it is). I think the chains provide comfort; they are known, they don't frighten people generally wary of new experiences, which is, from what we saw, the overall culture in the area. From the city planner perspective, city planners will agonize for years over new development, intended to make the area more of a magnet for expats from the cities, and declare they want locally owned, locally operated business; they put millions in outright funding and tax abatement in harbor development, condo's, etc., but then they reject all this to give the nod to the national chains, Applebee's apparently being the top choice. This is what we witnessed, anyway, and Suzy's conclusion is what we drew.

Just a couple of resources, hope they're helpful: Chef2Chef - database of culinary scholarships article I know, too, that this esteemed website also offers a variety of annual awards. I think the timing of your school won't work out for this next year, as the awards have been handed out, but FYI, eGullet works with the Culinary Trust to offer annual awards - perhaps if you don't end up going this year, you might look into it for next. Just one more good thing this community offers to the culinary world. Best of luck; I hope you get the funding you need.

Truly impossible for me to limit to three; my "faves" change all the time, often depending on the weather, wine we've got on board, etc. In no particular order, France: Osau Iraty Tomme de Fedou; Epoisse de Bourgogne; aged crotin; laguiole pont l'eveque Raclette Roquefort Bleu D'Auvergne Tomme de Savoie Spain: Garrotxa Manchego Switzerland: Gruyere Vacherin Fribourgeois England Double Gloucester Stilton U.S.: Humboldt Fog Schwarz und Weiss, triple cream Amish blue Right now, in our fridge, Garrotxa, Osau Iraty, Tomme de Fedou, so, them's the current faves. The Fedou, in particular, with its direct connection to the sheep, is a subtle, but discernibly pleasant stank I can't get enough of. Well, when I'm not going nuts over the hay and meadow of Vacherin. I give up. Trois? Impossible!

I don't think it's a silly question...in fact, it's something that's come up for me recently. I'm from the Pacific Northwest - whenever I hear "smoked salmon", I think of the "flakey" stuff - brined and smoked. But, a good friend of mine constantly refers to what I consider lox as smoked salmon. Now, I don't understand why you would call this "smoked". It's soaked in brine, but it's not smoked is it? (I'm no salmon expert, so maybe it is and I'm missing something, but the stuff I've tasted that she's brought over from Ireland doesn't have a smoked flavor like the stuff I find in Seattle does - at least not IMO) Now this friend is from Ireland and all of her family refer to these lox things as 'smoked salmon' as well. So, I'm thinking maybe it's just a cultural thing - and maybe you should look at the origin of the recipe (i.e.: from the US used "flaked", from the UK use "lox"). That's just a guess off the top of my head, but that's what I would do. ETA: Although, I do agree with Hendry dV on not using lox in a recipe and going with the flakey if it's going to be cooked. ← To add to the confusion, my taxonomy would be, cold smoked is a type of "lox," but not all "lox" is smoked. In practice, though, when I think of "lox," I do generally think of very simply cured, cold smoked salmon. But "gravlax" or "gravad lox" extends to the salmon cured, often with spices and herbs, without smoking - mine, for instance, is cured with salt, ez sugar, a variety of citrus rinds, green herbs (parsley, tarragon, chervil), and a bit of cognac. I also cold smoke with a simple salt/sugar cure. I wonder "why not?" about the use of cold-smoked salmon in a recipe calling for cooked salmon. I prefer cold smoked salmon to hot-smoked salmon, as with the former, the fish's oils are preserved and I appreciate the texture and versatility. I would think using cold-smoked salmon in a cooked presentation would be fine, perhaps even render a better result. I often do this, anyway - i.e., (par) cold smoke duck breasts, poussin, lobster, even tomatoes and other vegetables - only to finish in a hot presentation.

This is an interesting discussion; there is something I would also like to clarify. I think everything has to do with thresholds - sensory thresholds ("yuck - spoiled!"), and thresholds past which the body will feel the ill-effects of contaminants, or enough contaminants will enter the body to replicate before the body can fight off the infection, hence, sickness. There is little "absolute" in cooking, in terms of contamination, absent sterilization - the absolute killing off of all microbes and their spores, and maintenance of this environment through aseptic practice (such as canning). I think what we do is better named sanitization- we reduce microbial loads to allowable limits, and make it difficult for these beasties to grow past allowable limits by heat, then cold. Foodborne, even airborne contaminants exist everywhere - we are eating contaminated food everyday, with every bite, or nearly so. When I posted "I wouldn't use it," what I should have said is "I wouldn't use it for service, or more than that day, or next." In other words, the scenario I envisioned was leaving the stock out, then putting it away. The population density of contaminant microorganisms may or not be large enough to surpass threshold levels by the end of the first day, but even in the refrigerator, absent a lengthy enough boil to kill off the bacteria and spores that result from the period sitting out, it will only retard what will be an inevitable process. A few days later at best, I would bet, and the stock is spoiled. Beyond this, even if the microbial load was itself low, I would wonder about their by-products, producing off-effects. Not worried about toxins, so much, in an aerobic environment, as much as nasty by-products of respiration and replication. Re: hot stock in a fridge. I think two problems are at hand: the hot stock may indeed heat up the fridge, as posted above, such that the cooling period is unduly long (large vessel/small fridge area). Or, the ability of the fridge to cool the liquid inside the stock vessel by external, ambient temp is really inefficient; either way, the length of time inside the microbial growth zone is long. The immersion stick method provides direct heat transfer, and is more efficient (rate of heat transfer is higher) in cooling the liquid to reasonable ranges.

Sorry, but past 4 hours, you're inviting unacceptably high-levels of contamination. This applies to everything. Additionally, it isn't as if 4 hours is a magic benchmark - any time you leave food out within the temparature range of microbial contaminants, with adequate nutrition (your food), and environmental factors (i.e., air, and not properly canned anaerobic environment), you will be getting contamination. 4 hours is a threshold estimate, but no time left out is good.