JosephB

Jamie at Chambers Street Wines can give you excellent advice on his Italian collection, which are mostly from small producers.

Will you clarify this? I'm not quite visualizing it. Did he hold the string at both ends and pull it down the length of the peel to sort of separate the dough from the peel after the toppings had been applied? Exactly. Stretched the string across the peel using both hands. Pulled the string tight against the peel. Ran the string down the length of the peel, under the dough, to separate the dough from the peel. After accomplishing this, went immediately to the oven. I wonder if they do this to avoid flouring the board. The flour would easily burn on the oven floor, and quickly fill the oven with soot, requiring the oven to be brushed out periodically.

Not knowing much about the burning of coal or wood, my intuition tells me that a wood stove would have to be stoked much more often than coal.

Yes, something similar to some of what Peter Moore builds. These models seem to be designed to remain open during cooking. Obviously, a door on the oven would make it hotter, right?

I don't know much about Vulcan ovens nor can I find any info doing a web search, but I have done a substantial amount of research on wood burning ovens. From the pizza cooks that I've spoken with, wood burning ovens can and do reach temperatures exceeding 900 degrees. Yes, this is correct. A wood fired oven can get plenty hot, certainly well within the range of temperatures maintained in the coal-fired establishments. The Neapolitan pizzerie use wood. If wood produces the same result as coal, why are the coal-burning pizza places in NYC (and elsewhere) perceived as superior to all challengers? Are there any serious challengers using wood? If I wanted to open a pizza shop to compete with, say, Patsy's in Harlem (putting aside Patsy's history), would I stand a chance with a wood-burning oven?

Excellent.

Sam, I want to compliment you on remembering all those great details of our conversation with Victor -- it added a lot of color. Also, your side-by-side comparison of the pizzas is fabulous.

Arizona Republic cited these remarkable facts about the Grimaldi's branch which opened in Scottsdale last year: "But the key design features here are the coal-fired brick ovens, which give the pizzas their distinctive look, taste and texture. Weighing 25 tons and filled with 250 pounds of coal, these ovens reach 1,200 degrees. At that temperature, the thin-crust pizzas cook in less than three minutes. And they emerge from the inferno crisp, chewy, smoky and blistered." I would think that the pizza would come out incinerated at 1,200 degrees.

This Article states that coal burning ovens are still allowed in Brooklyn.

While we're on the subject of pizza oven temperatures again, it's worth taking a look at the Observer, which reprinted a piece from Steingarten's, "It Must've Been Something I Ate." Here By the way, can anyone can confirm what Grimaldi's told us about coal burning ovens in NYC: that they're prohibited only in Manhattan?

Last night's trek to Patsy's in East Harlem was another happy culinary adventure, and a fun evening out. Things got off on the right foot with a very hospitable welcome from our waiter Victor, the guy in the photo with bergerka, who has been with Patsy's for ten years. Even central casting would be hard pressed to find the likes of Victor - a real nostalgic gem. Victor reserved a nice-sized table to accomodate the eight of us. (For future reference, Patsy's does not take reservations, but if you call Victor one half hour before you arrive, he will reserve a table -- a little charm helps.) Patsy's is one of the most bizarrely configured restaurants you'll see. Patsy owns the entire building, which has four separate and distinct entrances to the restaurant, each one leading to a different room. From inside the restaurant the spaces are connected, but interrupted by a passage through the kitchen. A separate room is reserved just for the pizza oven and prep area, which has a take-out counter. As for decor, there isn't any (the lighting is particularly awful), but the place is cozy and charming nonetheless, thanks once again to Victor and the ghosts of time. Even though he was very busy, Victor took time to share these interesting facts with us: 1. The coal burning oven is fired up at 8:00 a.m. each morning for lunch service that begins at 11:00 a.m. Three hours to get the oven up to speed seemed more credible than the half an hour Grimaldi's told us they need to get their oven ready. 2. The oven is stoked throughout the day. Again, this was contrary to what we learned at Grimaldi's. There they stoke only twice a day. 3. The oven at Patsy's reaches 750 to 800 degrees. Grimaldi's told us that there oven reached 850 degrees. We'll have to wait for a return visit to get more facts. As for the pizza, it was superb. As Blondie aptly noted last night, the crust was ethereal. Indeed, eight of us managed to eat six pizzas without any problem, which is a direct testament to the delicacy of the crust. The char was also excellent (Grimaldi's crust is smokier for some reason, which I like.), except that the outer crust was undeniably burnt in some spots on some of the pizzas. I think this happened as a result of the pizzas being put to close to the oven wall. The place was at peak service when we ordered, so the oven must have been tightly filled with pies. The crust is also noteworthy in that it stayed crispy longer than Grimaldi's crust. The thing to eat at Patsy's is the plain fresh mozzarella - punto! The mozzarella melts beautifully in the super-hot oven. The tomato sauce was a bit more tangy, in a cooked sort of way, than Grimaldi's, but was excellent nonetheless. Topped with fresh basil and olive oil (unfortunately, the oil was not special) I personally could have devoured one whole pie without any trouble. The pie with very good quality low-moisture mozzarella was different, but an excellent example of its kind as well. I would not recommend a visit to Patsy's for any of the toppings. Although the pepperoni was good, it was not noteworthy, especially when compared to the fabulous toppings at Grimaldi's (sausage, roast pepper, and olives), and Di Fara (artichokes, pepperoni). The olives were really awful. The pie was covered with them: flavorless, canned, pitted things. As for the Marinara, to begin with it was too garlicky. I love raw garlic, but this garlic was not particularly good. Talk to me about Marinara when the new crop of garlic is ready, and some excellent olive oil and peeled tomatoes are on hand. I thought that the greatest strength of the pizza, namely the crust, was seriously diminished in the Marinara version. To underscore how ethereal and addictive the classic Patsy's pie is, I'll share this anecdote. After we finished eating we went into the pizza-making room to take some photos. I struck up a conversation with a woman at the counter (who happened to be a photographer), who told me that she and her companion had traveled from Brooklyn for Patsy's pizza, and had just finished a pie in the dining room. However, unlike us they were not there to take photos. They were waiting for a nightcap: two slices! Sam, once again your photos captured the moment. Thanks to everyone for a great time.

In that case, you can definately get away with a commercial product because the purest essence of clam is not critical in the finished product. On the other hand, a fresh shrimp stock would be key.

Doxsee is widely available and is very good. Doxsee has a long history of producing clam products on Long Island. Doxsee History You can find them at the Union Square Green Market, though I don't think they sell clam juice there. Alternatively, you can reserve clam juice by opening and draining fresh clams. You can supplement this with some clam stock made by simmering the clam shells in some water. That's what I would do. BTW, what are you making?

Report from the front: My wife reports that at 11:00 am today the line to buy a cream puff extended out the door and down the street.

Final tally

JJ, you did this without taking notes? Very impressive. By the way, where do you think white asparagus and huckleberries are coming from this time of year?

Patsy's East Harlem The good news is that Patsy's is willing to reserve for us, if I call one hour before we arrive. I'm sure we'll have no problem getting a look at the operation. Confirmed Attendees slkinsey & bergerka blondie JosephB & Donna Alacarte Pan SarahD Admin: we'll use this post as the "master list" and edit as appropriate to add names.

I am also troubled by the absence of tablecloths -- too casual for a 3rd star. Casualness and decor also hurt WD50.

In Cuban communities, and Cuba I suppose, this is called cafe cubano, and is divine when well made and not too sweet for my taste. As an aside, one of the great pleasures of going to Miami (I used to live there, and now visit once each winter) is the cafe cubano. The pleasure starts in the airport. Upon arrival, we head straight for La Carreta in terminal D, and order a colada, a 4 oz. styrofoam cup-full of great espresso in the cuban style. The container of coffee comes with a stack of 1/2 oz. cups, apparently to divide the coffee with a bunch of people. Yeah, right. My wife and I finish off the 4 oz. straight from the container without any help -- welcome to Miami. Another remarkable thing about cuban coffee in Miami is the price. A shot of liquid gold is only $0.30 in any of the many joints serving it in Miami. Even in the airport, we paid only $1.60 for a delicious colada which could have been shared with at least four people. Meanwhile, right across from La Carreta is Starbucks, getting $2.06 for an ordinary espresso, with none of the charm of the cuban cafeteria. One would think that Starbucks couldn't compete in this market, for espresso at least, and makes me wonder about the introduction of Starbucks in Italy, for example.

I have had masterful results making tagliatelli and the like using Marcella Hazan's 2 eggs to 1 cup of unbleached all purpose, lots of manual kneading, and a good one hour rest. There are at least 3 other fine palated eGulleteers who can personally attest to the excellent results I got using this method. Does anyone have a definitive reason why some pasta recipes call for EVOO?

At a certain level, decor and ambiance are integral to the dining experience. It's definately legitimate to give weight to the decor.

You would think that the extraordinary setting and apparently pleasant service would entitle Asiate to one star before the food was even considered.

Laura Cunningham, a front-of-house manager at Per Se, told the NYTimes that it will take 2-4 weeks to reopen Per Se.

Based on what's been said above, you can't be talking about the same Grimaldi's. Or perhaps you went there at an off time, like 4:00pm, when the oven was cooling down and the pizza maker had to resort to dough straight out of the fridge. I think that combination could result in what you described, but it wouldn't be typical of Grimaldi's pizza. Hmmm... I was there at a later time - around 10:30 I think. Could that have been it? I'm definately always up for giving it another shot! I'll say though, it wasn't the first time I was dissapointed there. I had the same problem once before but I dont' remember what time it was then. Here's the Video Feed to the WB11 story about Di Fara.

Based on what's been said above, you can't be talking about the same Grimaldi's. Or perhaps you went there at an off time, like 4:00pm, when the oven was cooling down and the pizza maker had to resort to dough straight out of the fridge. I think that combination could result in what you described, but it wouldn't be typical of Grimaldi's pizza. Hmmm... I was there at a later time - around 10:30 I think. Could that have been it? I'm definately always up for giving it another shot! I'll say though, it wasn't the first time I was dissapointed there. I had the same problem once before but I dont' remember what time it was then. OK, let's make a point of going yo Grimaldi's together.