caroline

Adam et al, The results turned out unexpectedly fascinating. I tried 6, all mixed to batter consistency: masa plus water masa harina plus water masa plus 1/5 flour plus water mh plus 1/5 flour plus water masa plus flour plus yeast plus water masa harina ditto I was surprised at how differently they reacted not just in terms of texture and smell (masa much smoother and with a delicious smell) which might have been expected. But they also differed greatly, hugely in their willingness to ferment. The masa was much more resistant to fermenting than the masa harina even though I used Minsa which is supposedly nothing but nixtamalized maize. I havenot had time to cook these batters as I am just off for a couple of weeks. But I want to repeat the experiment when I get back and also ask my maize cereal scientist buddy if she has any insights. Rachel

Ah, you never know Adam. Tastes are changing fast in Mexico with urbanization. And there is always the pancake model! But it does raise interesting question about how societies treat their grains. And right now I have eight bowls of masa harina and masa with various admixtures of water, flour and yeast sitting in the kitchen to see what can be done with them. Rachel

The country people I have asked in the last couple of days say sour masa is for the pigs. And that they never use batters. The latter is borne out by the Recetario del Maiz. The former has exceptions. This same book has a recipe for a Guanajuato tamale made with soured masa spread on a cloth or leaf, spread with the filling, and then rolled up like a jelly roll and popped in the hoja de maiz. I've actually had tamales made this way in the market here. But I would swear the masa had not been soured. Nonetheless it seems soured masa is the exception. Rachel

There's so much going on this thread now, I hardly know where to begin. So I'm going to begin with Adam's original question. And here I have two additional comments. First, I wonder if the difference between flour and masa is significant. Granted what I take to be the basic rule of grain history, every thing that can be tried has been tried, I can't help wondering if dry versus wet grinding made a difference. Europeans worked with dry powders, flours. Perhaps it was natural to try adding different proportions of liquid. Batters were easy to work with, particularly if you had the right implements. Mesoamericans only occasionally worked with dry powders, usually a powder of toasted maize (pinole). But I have never heard of pinole being left to sour. Perhaps because it is so good as it is or as a gruel. Instead they worked with cooked grains to produce a plasticine-like consistency just right for tortillas or tamales. Adam, though, was not working with masa but with masa harina and naturally treated it as he woud flour. Second, I've always assumed that the reason why Mesoamericans of the High Plateaus did not ferment maize into an alcoholic drink was the same reason that Mediterraneans didn't. If you have a plant that obligingly grows on ground that cannot be used for grain and that produces a fruit or sap that is easy to ferment (grapes or maguey), you don't waste your precious grain turning it into alcohol. And incidentally on a near-batter, one of the girls who works for me brought me "gordita de elote" yesterday. Nearly dry maize (this is the season) ground, milk and a bit of sugar added, plus anis and cinnamon, and cooked on maize husk. I gather the mixture was still thick enough to be made into a gordita-type object. Delicious incidentally, Rachel

Adam, interesting questions again. I'm in a bit of a rush too so here off the top of my head are some comments. Over the next few days I will ask around and do some experiments with fresh masa and masa harina. A quick glance through the Recetario del Maíz (this first appeared in 1982 and has been reprinted as vol. 10 of the marvelous Cocina Indígena y Popular series) with its well-over 1000 recipes bears out the following: (1) I don't think soured masa is used. May be the sour part of the complex flavor changes is not desired/needed in the maize kitchen because the basic sauces are so often sour, usually from a base of tomates (tomatillos) which also give much of the body. (2) I don't think batter cooking was ever part of maize kitchen. It would have been hard to do on an earthernware comal which has only gone out in the last generation. Even the metal comals that are now used are of very thin metal and soon become an undulating warped surface, fine for tortillas, not for batters. Pancakes (hot cakes) and crepes are both now authentically mexican, but part of the wheat kitchen and late nineteenth century in origin. They are not home cooking in the villages (the rural/urban divide is crucial). Plus 3) I don't want to give the impression that there was no overlap between the two kitchens. for example, in the eighteenth century, judging by the many recipe books we have, it was very common for the well-to-do to use nixtamal to make the elaborate layered or filled tortas that were de rigeur in Europan cooking. There are still traces of these in well-to-do Mexican cooking, though again obviously not in the villages. 4) the fermented maize drinks usually begin with the grain, not with nixtamal. Best, Rachel

Adam, Love your experiments. This is a brief note to say I am with Theabroma. The maize and wheat kitchens do not mix much in Mexico. There is a huge wheat kitchen, very interesting, and not very well documented. Pulque (sap of maguey that ferments naturally though that is to oversimplify things) must have been used very early for this kitchen. And then commercial yeast when it became available. It was the food of the urban well-to-do criollos. Many regarded eating corn as a huge comedown. (They still do in fact. I have friends, Mexicans of many generations, who proudly say they never eat tortillas.) This group, if they eat maize, do so outside the main meal structure as "antojitos," little whims, snacks. There is of course an equally huge, probably huge-er maize kitchen, mainly the rural poor (who have little use for the urban rich or their wheat breads). They eat corn tortillas three times a day. They are FOOD. The wheat products they eat are snacks. They may be homemade (lightly raised often wholemeal sweetened with piloncillo, raw sugar, for example and known by many names including wheat gorditas) for example. Commercial wheat products (subsidised bolillos, crackers from the early twentieth century, then sliced white bread from mid-century, lately flour tortillas) are snacks too, something to buy from a street stand, give the children after school or to take when traveling. Some of the corn kitchen (tamales) is very lightly raised mainly with tequizquite which is plentiful in Mexico. It's a mixture of salts left in dry lake beds with no constant composition but acting like any other chemical leavener. But there seems to be nothing in Mexico like the cornbreads of the US where you are trying to substitute maize for wheat. the wealthy have essentially always been able to get wheat so had no need of this. In any case you cannot produce fluffy breads with masa harina unless it has wheat flour added because of the lack of gluten (as Theabroma says). Maize is sometimes fermented to make drinks but it's a whole different fermentation technology. So what seems natural in England (mixing flours of different grains) is, I speculate, here a no-no (as, say, mixing sweet and savory is in classic French cooking). Here the Spanish and the indigenous (very roughly) still have not merged into the desired "cosmic race." That said, I agree with Theabroma that many restaurants in Mexico now offering corn "tortillas" have added a good bit of wheat, partly because masa harina makes a second-rate inflexible tortilla that gets a bit of flexibility from wheat flour, partly to cater to modern "international" tastes. Your fluffy tacos would, I think, be greeted with cries of joy here as a variant on the enormously popular "hot cakes"--American-style pancakes introduced, I believe, by the Chinese railroad workers who moved from the US to Mexico in the nineteenth century. These are now one of the most popular breakfasts in Mexico at least in urban areas and regarded as authentically Mexican. At least that is my off-the-cuff reaction. Any other ideas, folks? Rachel

Sandra, if you go to the Day of the Dead thread in this forum you will find all the links. good luck and here's wishing for Puppy Gomez! Rachel

Sandra, I too have always found Mexican recipes come out too wet even with lots of knading, rising etc. But I have not had your experience that adding more flour makes them heavy. I wonder what's going on? Theabroma perhaps you know. When I add flour to make mine workable, they still turn out light as a feather and appreciated by even the most discerning Mexicans. A mystery to me. I will try theabromas's recipes to see if I can avoid the fiddling. We had a thread on this last year by the way and there's another now somewhere on egullet--does anyone know the links? Rachel

Yes, it's great that there is good bread. But what about some Mexican breads? These are all European. Rachel

I used to love the bread, cheese (including some wonderful made-in-Mexico cheses) and charcuterie from Le Petit Cluny in San Angel. But they've closed. A great loss, Rachel

Yes, I saw the same story. YOu can find something of the history of El globo on their web site. It's one of the oldest of the still-existing Mexican patisseries, founded in the late nineteenth century by Iltalians and then taken on by French. I have Mexican friends, who, like you, still remember it as the place to buy cakes and pastries. It began a huge expansion a decade or so ago when it was taken over by Carlos Slim, whom I am sure is familiar to you as Mexico's richest man and owner Telmex. Now there are over 100 stores in all major cities in Mexico (we have at least two in Leon) and a bakery in Guadalajara. It seems to have been part of his move to take over much of many of the shopping center chains such as Sanborns (another venerable institution) and Mixup (CDs and not so vnerable). So the purchase by Bimbo is not a radical break. Yes, Bimbo is Mexican, founded by a Basque family around World War II and still owned by the original family. They saw the opportunity to use modern machinery to sell pan de caja and thus establish a niche separate from bolillos. Massively successful it's the world's second or third largest bakery and operates all over Latin America, in many parts of the US and in Europe. We've had discussions of it before on this list. And Nick, I agree that El Globo isn't what it usd to be. But here in the provinces I am sometimes glad to get certain things there--we don't have great patisseries. Most of the cake shops in Guanajuato I would not touch. So I'd add to flour girl's question--where to you now recommend in DF? Rachel

Beer should not be served in frozen mugs. Okay to serve lager in frozen glass but not for stout, Belgian or ale. ←

Beer should not be served in frozen mugs. Okay to serve lager in frozen glass but not for stout, Belgian or ale. ←

HI ASM Ny, I'm glad you had such a good meal. And welcome to Mexico. What time did you go? If it was much before 3 the restaurant would have been empty because 2:30 to 3 is the time for the main meal. And perhaps it is not so surprising that the duck was not cooked in the mole. In general moles are prepared independently and then thinned with the broth that the meat or fowl has been cooked in. In this case, there may have been no broth. But moles are so thick that it is difficult to cook things in them. This is an issue that is under some dispute in Mexico. All the best, Rachel

Some weeks ago, I ran across a cartoon by Calderón in the newspaper Reforma. The point had to do with the long legal case involving Mexico City's mayor which was of consuming interest (sorry) in Mexico but not in the rest of the world. But the examples were drawn from food. It seemed to me an interesting and amusing insight into what the cartoonist assumed his readers would eat. The point is that each rule is broken all the time. A rough translation and no pictures. Chiles en nogada should not be capeados (cooked in batter) Donuts should not be dunked. Hot dogs should not have ketchup. Spaghetti should not be cut. Sushi should not have cream cheese. Hot chocolate should not be made with milk. Paella should not come with "everything." Beer should not be served in frozen mugs. Carne asada should not be well cooked. Esquites (corn kernels) should not be served with mayonaise. One starch should not be accompanied by another (torta guajalota or torta stuffed with tamal) Well, the sushi's certainly a lost cause. Mexican sushi without queso crema is almost unthinkable! Rachel

Nick, all these recommendations sound great. We sshall all be grateful when you bring out your web site on places to eat in the city . . . so many great places hidden away. And Will, we shall miss you among the tiny number of people who post here. so you'd better return, Rachel

Roden's book is great. I prefer the first edition to the second which I don't think adds much and is more bulky. She is from Egypt originally where her family held a very distinguished place in the Sephardic Jewish community with contacts around the Mediterranean. She wrote this book in the 50s or early 60s when she was working on her doctorate (in literature) I think in the British Museum (as then was, now library). It is a wonderful, scholarly yet charming evocation of a world she had lost. She was the first to combine the research of Rodinson and Arberry into the medieval tradition with her own contemporary experience. Much of the Zubaida book is written in response, always a sign of a book that is worthwhile. Of course in 40 years we have learned a lot and Roden's touch gets less sure (obviously) the further she is from her own experience both in time and place--accounting for your worries Chef Zadi. But I would say it should be in the library of anyone seriously interested in the foods of the South Mediterranean. Rachel

In case anyone is interested, R TALLER "CONOCE Y DEGUSTA ALGUNOS HONGOS DE LA SIERRA NEVADA" En este taller se analizarán los hongos desde el punto de vista taxonómico, culinario y de su conservación. Se podrán degustar algunos de ellos y se visitará la Colección Nacional de Micología del Instituto de Biología de la UNAM. Profesoras: Edelmira Linares, Elvira Aguirre y Teodolinda Balcázar Dirigido a público en general Fecha: Miércoles 31 de agosto del 2005 Horario de 10:00 a 15:00 hrs. Lugar: Jardín Botánico Exterior, IB-UNAM COSTO DEL MATERIAL: $ 500.00 M.N. CUPO LIMITADO Inscripciones: Del 01 al 26 de agosto del 2005 Horario de atención de 9:00 a l5:00 hrs. Área de Difusión y Educación Informes a los tels. 5622-9047 ó 5622-9063 Email: eliah@mail.ibiologia.unam.mx --

I don't have much to add because this is not a herb/quelite used in this part of Mexico. I would second the claim that it's really easy to grow. I have some in a pretty small pot and they self-seed all the time. I just yank out the dying ones and let the new ones come on. Like everyone else, I've enjoyed the taste. But quite a lot of Mexicans avoid it because although the taste is good the first time round, it tends to "repeat" as the Mexicans politely put it. I don't know if this happens with everyone or is specific to certain physiologies. I've certainly experienced it. Rachel

Theabroma, what a great recipe. I can't wait to try it, with guajillos of course. And forget the abstinence. Did Alicia say who gave it to her etc? Rachel

There is actually one source on Mexican mushrooms, a book by the poet José Juan Tablada called Hongos mexicanos comestibles, that is, edible Mexican mushrooms. It was published in 1983, years after the author's death in 1945, by one of Mexico's major publishers, Fondo de Cultura Económica. It's been reprinted various times. It has nice water color illustrations including of the blue mushroom along with various of his haikus dealing with mushrooms. It also includes instructions on how to collect, preserve and cook them. The latter suggestions are based mainly on French and Catalan ways of dealing with the same genera or species. It also tells you how to recognize if you are poisoned and what to do about it. I'm sure mushroom taxonomy has changed enormously. But this remains a charming and useful book and an insight in the Mexico of the 20s and 30s, Rachel

Ah Will, you can buy peeled walnuts in the San Juan market. There's just the little question of the price . . . Wish we had so many mushrooms around here. We'll just have to get by with the seasonal garambullos. That's an invitation to ask what they are, Rachel

Oh dear, then I'm afraid I can`t help. Recipes for leche quemada are always milk boiled down with sugar and a speck of bicarb. Across Latin America it's the same. The icecream just freezes this. Perhaps yours does not boil it down as much. But if so, where does the flavor come from? Or, and this would be utter heresy, but they couldn't be using flavoring for the ice cream, could they? Love these puzzles, Rachel

Thanks Esperanza. If you haven't read her informative and charming article now's your chance. But what is interesting to me is that the well-to-do housewife seized on this to make her improved variety of the latest Spanish dish. Nothing indigenous about those recipes except for a few chiles. Theabroma, at least around here meat is still commonly ground on the metate. Pacholas made in the food processor just don't taste the same (another strike against me for my sloppy methods). Most of the recipes I have seen in historic cookbooks are for fresh meat and fish though I am sure that they worked on dried too. They ground everything they could lay their hands on. Rachel

Thanks will. And Jaymes, since I am beginning to compile the thousand things I never experienced as a counterweight to all those I am supposed to have, a party at your house is high on the list. You sound like you knocked them off with ease (ha, I bet not) but better that you loved them too. And I agree about the freezer friend: beans, bolognaise sauce, cooked beef cubes, toasted almonds, tomato sauce, mexican sauces, breadcrumbs, etc etc. My friends in need. Rachel