slkinsey
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Posts posted by slkinsey
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Apparently I misunderstood the original quote in the Times. I understood it to mean that a "lack of vodka" in the bar was the determining factor of bar quality, when it seems that Nathan meant a lack of vodka based cocktails on the menu. Is that right? If so, then I am certainly more apt to agree with Nathan.
While it is not an absolutely determining factor, I would say that if you go into a bar that "makes drinks" and there are 20+ different kinds of "superpremium" and flavored vodkas on the back bar -- and especially if there are only 3-5 different kinds of gin, and between 1-0 kinds of rye -- it is highly likely that they won't be making quality cocktails there.
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As far as I know -- and I'm going on around 20 seconds of a conversation I had with Richie about the ice, so I could be mistaken -- all the Petraske-school bars are using this clear commercial block ice now, and have been for some time. If I'm correct about the way they originally produced their ice, I'm not sure when they went over to the commercial ice.
As far as I know, the only other bar using clear commercial ice is Don Lee at Momofuku Ssäm Bar. He may get his ice from the same guys, or from another supplier -- I don't know. Based on this report it sounds like he's getting the ice already broken down into precise two-inch cubes.
Weird! I was under the distinct impression that M&H, at least, was still using pan ice. The economics of this also seem a bit odd – i.e., Don charging $1/cube, but White Star offering $7 drinks before 9 PM.
Maybe they are still using the "pan ice." I don't know. Haven't been there in quite some time.
afaik they are not charging a buck for the ice at Momo. I think that must have been reported due to a misunderstanding by Robin & Rob.
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The ice, as one might expect, is outstanding. They have twice-weekly deliveries of crystal clear 300 pound blocks of ice, which are broken down into lumps and pieces of various sizes and configurations depending on how it will be used.
Am I correct in understanding that this is different/better ice than that used in the other Petraske-related places? Do any other bars in the city work off big blocks of ice like that?
I'm not quite sure about that, actually. Sasha's places have always been noteworthy for using "big ice." That said, I could be wrong but pretty sure that, back in older days, places like Milk & Honey originally made their own "block ice" by freezing deep trays of filtered water and then breaking those down and keeping the pieces in the freezer. This can be good ice, but would have had many of the defects of conventionally frozen ice: There would be cloudiness from trapped bubbles and the ice would be no more dense or strong than the ice you get from your own freezer at home. The advantage was the size and the fact that ice stored in the freezer is colder than ice stored in an ice bin.
The ice they're getting at Dutch Kills is commercial block ice which, among other things, is specially frozen to be clear (no trapped bubbles, etc.). This is accomplished via a variety of means, but a usual way for clear block ice is to keep the water moving so that it freezes one layer at a time without trapping any precipitated air. The idea is that the ice freezes more or less the same way river ice freezes in the winter. The result is ice that is not only clear, but is more dense and strong than conventionally frozen ice.
As far as I know -- and I'm going on around 20 seconds of a conversation I had with Richie about the ice, so I could be mistaken -- all the Petraske-school bars are using this clear commercial block ice now, and have been for some time. If I'm correct about the way they originally produced their ice, I'm not sure when they went over to the commercial ice.
As far as I know, the only other bar using clear commercial ice is Don Lee at Momofuku Ssäm Bar. He may get his ice from the same guys, or from another supplier -- I don't know. Based on this report it sounds like he's getting the ice already broken down into precise two-inch cubes.
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I do agree, by the way, that if a blogger is presenting himself as a "serious reviewer," there are perhaps additional ethical concerns, or at least some practical concerns as to credibility that come along with that. But these are not and should not be relevant to most food-focused bloggers or forum participants. If a food-focused blogger would like to present himself as performing a kind of critical journalism, then I would think he would be well-served by overtly subscribing to the usual and well-established professional and ethical codes of journalism and there is little need for a special ethical or professional code to cover these people simply because they do their work over new media.
I would imagine, however, that most of these people would already be professionals or "semiprofessionals" of one kind or another. We're talking mostly, I would think, about the likes of Andrea Strong and pre-new-gig Restaurant Girl.
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As promised, some of my special no-talent snapshots. The picture quality sucks, but I do think it gives an impression of the place. . .
Entrance at night with the BAR sign illuminated.
Looking into the front room.
The bar area with the indefatigable Giuseppe Gonzalez behind the stick.
You can see the mammoth chunks of ice down there at the other end of the bar
Looking down the other end of the bar towards the service bar.
I think this picture gives some small idea of the dramatic height of the room.
Eventually they hope to rehabilitate and open an old skylight.
Continuing past the bar area is the "Sawdust Lounge."
A closer look at the big-ass ice.
Giuseppe is hand-cracking some ice while my Dutch Julep frosts up.
Closer look at the Dutch Julep.
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But doesn't the preponderance of food-focused web sites, blogs and forum posts that relate or discuss food and restaurant meals do so within the context of "relating an experience rather than reviewing" or, at the most, offer "good natured reviews intended more for enjoyment than contemplation"?
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Sure, I suppose it's possible. But who knows what kind of surface will be left behind for you to cook on. Most likely, not a very good one. But it can't hurt to try, right? What kind of tool are you planning on using to get the PTFE off?
Meanwhile, what is this "high quality stainless steel pan" of which you speak? No such thing, in my book, unless you're talking about a pan that has that stainless wrapped around some aluminum. If it's just a regular stainless steel pan, a couple of bucks at Bed Bath & Beyond will get you a much better pan than anything you'd end up with after however many hours of sanding or sandblasting.
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I would be happy if eGullet accepted the Food Critics' guidelines you linked to for anyone posting a review on eGullet.
Again, you haven't said what would constitute a "review" on eGullet. You would seriously suggest that anyone who wants to write in these forums about a restaurant meal they had should/would have to conform to the Association of Food Journalists' Critic's Guidelines?! Do you even adhere to these guidelines (full anonymity including reserving under a pseudonym, multiple visits, making sure you sample the full range of the restaurants menu offerings, waiting at least one month after opening before visiting for the purposes of later writing, etc.) when making posts about restaurants here and on your site?
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Out of curiosity, would it be ethical for a restaurant to pay a reviewer $200 to review the restaurant?
That's an interesting question. I think that paying money and giving something for free are meaningfully distinguishable from one another to the extent that it seems reasonable to say that it wouldn't normally be ethical to pay a reviewer $200 to review a restaurant. On the other hand, a lot would depend on the specifics. If you had a high end restaurant somewhere in a spa in the middle of nowhere and there was no way to get a serious reviewer without compensating him for his time, and if you made clear to the reviewer that you wanted as unvarnished an opinion as he was able to give and were willing to take your lumps if he didn't like what you were doing, I can see that situation being ethical. Meanwhile, that's the ethics of the restaurant. If, on the other hand, the reviewer accepts the 200 bucks and writes the review and discloses his fee in the review, as far as I am concerned the reviewer has satisfied his ethical obligation.
Meanwhile, things not too different from this go on all the time in other fields. Even some pretty closely related ones. I was amused to see Daniel Rogov, who is dead set against restaurant comps, jump through hoops to justify why it was okay for him to accept all those free bottles for his wine reviews. And, in my business, it's certainly not unheard of for a B-cast performer who wants a review to send the local critic a pair of nice tickets to one of the B-cast performances (these tickets usually being paid for by the performer, not the company). It's always understood, however, that these are situations where you pays your money and you takes your chances.
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My concern here is with bloggers who write reviews and want their reviews to have credibility.
Beyond that I believe that one writing a serious review does have an ethical obligation not to accept a comp. If one does not present his writing as a review then I do not have a problem with accepting a comp.
What does that have to do with the larger universe of food bloggers and forum participants then? Wouldn't these considerations of yours be better addressed with a "Food Reviewer's Code of Ethics"? And doesn't something like that already exist? Here, in the Association of Food Journalists' Critic's Guidelines?
Meanwhile, who is to say what is and what is not a "review"? Is this a review? How about this? This?
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If a reviewer is considered unethical he can not have credibility.
Yes, but the reverse is not true. A reviewer may be considered extremely ethical but not credible. This is why these are separable.
Accepting a comp for a meal that is then reviewed casts both an ethical and credibility shadow over that review no matter how good/fair the intentions of the writer.For one thing, accepting a prearranged comp generally means that the restaurant will know the reviewer's table at the start of the meal. If the reviewer knows that the restaurant knows his table then he should be sufficiently savvy to know that the restaurant will give him VIP treatment.
How can that reviewer then write with credibility about the meal? And if the reviewer knows that his meal received TLC, how can the reviewer ethically present that meal as representative of the restaurant?
First, of course, we should acknowledge that not all comps are prearranged. Beyond that, the reviewer can certainly ethically comment on a prearranged, full comped meal simply by disclosing that the meal was a prearranged full comp. That satisfies the ethical obligation. It is then up to the readers to decide whether or not the reviewer's review is credible -- again, demonstrating why these two things are separable.
I think you are confusing a "Code of Ethics" with a "Code of Conduct" or a "Professional Code." This is easy to do, I suppose, since they are often given under the same names and they are often combined in one Code. But a "Code of Ethics" is designed simply to ensure ethical behavior, nothing more. In contrast, a "Code of Conduct" or a "Professional Code" usually includes ethics but is also designed to further certain goals that are outside the realm of ethics. A Professional Code might include things such as "we give top knotch service" or "we will match any price" or "every surface of the bathroom will be disinfected" that are designed to increase confidence and credibility. But bathroom sanitation or discount prices in DVD players are not ethical considerations. So, for example, forbidding all comps on the basis that doing so will increase credibility would be part of a Professional Code but not an Ethical Code.
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As I have stated elsewhere, I do not believe a code of ethics should permit a food writer to accept comps.
Here's a question, based on some of your previous opinions on this matter: Do you believe that this is a matter of ethical obligation or is it because you feel that someone who writes about food on the internet "won't be taken seriously by mainstream media" if he accepts comps? I am rather inclined to agree with Chris that ethics and credibility are separate issues.
Also, I'm curious as to your thoughts about which and what kind of blogs or internet writers you're talking about. Don't you think there is a reasonable difference between, say, a writer at The Feedbag or Serious Eats New York (never mind someone like Mark Bittman) writing about a comped meal, and more personal food bloggers such as, say, John Sconzo or Mitch Weinstein writing about a comped meal? And how about a more serious "reviewer" amateur such as Marc Shepherd? I can understand that Marc might feel an increased need to avoid comps compared to John and Mitch, for whom I think there is no obligation whatsoever. Or, perhaps more interestingly, what if Alex and Aki or Shola write about a free meal they got from a colleague? Shouldn't be able to do that? Why not? Meanwhile, I'm not sure it makes sense to differentiate between all bloggers and all forum participants. Certainly there are plenty posts in these forums which are every bit as detailed, personal and thought out as any blog post.
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Adoption of the code will be purely voluntary, and the eGullet Society will not serve as an enforcement or adjudication body.
If the Society will have no further role in enforcing the "code of ethics" it has created, then why bother attaching the eG name to it?
I know of no other organisation that has a code of ethics that does not, in some way, follow-up on whether the members remain true to that code or not.
This is because a Code of Ethics is usually promulgated by an organization, association, company or accrediting entity and only applies to the members, employees or accreditees of said organization, association, company or accrediting entity. I'm not aware of too many Codes of Ethics that are voluntarily adopted and proclaimed by anyone who cares to do so. In any event, adherence to most any Code of Ethics is effectively voluntary and usually not strictly monitored or proactively enforced by the entity promulgating the Code (exceptions would be things like the medical and legal professions). In most cases, if large scale ethical violations are committed by someone who is supposed to be under a certain Code of Ethics, someone complains about that person to the appropriate organization, association, company or accrediting entity, which then decides whether or not to kick the person out of the organization or association, fire the person from the company or withdraw the entity's accreditation of that person (or, in rare cases, impose punitive measures). In a case such as this, the eGullet Society is in the position of being an accrediting entity. So, presumably, if someone emailed a Society manager and said, "so-and-so has your badge on his blog, but I have proof that he engages in quid pro quo positive reviews in exchange for lavish comps" the Society might decide to tell the guy he can't display the badge any more. Other than that, there really isn't much more to do. Keep in mind, by the way, that violations of many of the items in this Code would difficult if not impossible to definitively demonstrate. What people are doing by voluntarily displaying the badge is openly proclaim that these things are important to them, and that they have agreed to abide by them as a way of giving certain assurances to their readership.
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Last night I had the opportunity to visit Dutch Kills -- one of the City's exciting new bars, and the first serious cocktail joint of which I am aware to break ground in Queens. This is great news for those of us who live in neighborhoods that are not conveniently situated for transportation to/from the Downtown cluster of cocktail spots, and really it's quite convenient for most anyone in the city. It took us 30 minutes door-to-door from the Upper West Side, and Richie Boccato (more on whom anon) says it's an even faster ride for him all the way down and across town to Little Branch. This is because Dutch Kills is in Long Island City near the Citicorp building, not coincidentally in a neighborhood formerly known as Dutch Kills. If you've ever looked at an MTA New York Subway Map you may notice that Long Island City is a cluster of subway lines leading to virtually every part of the City. Dutch Kills is convenient to the E, V, G, N, R, W and 7 trains, not to mention a half-dozen bus lines.
The bar itself is both industrial and refined, opulent and unassuming -- all characteristics that will be familiar with anyone who has visited any of the other bars sprouting from Sasha Petraske partnerships. But Dutch Kills may be the most interesting. The entrance is a simple door on the side of a brick warehouse building emblazened with an industrial yellow sign advertising the presence of "Blue Prints Engineering, PC." Above the door is a simple neon sigh that reads: "BAR" in keeping with the usual aesthetic of understatement in this group's bars, and in complete harmony with the industrial feel of the neighborhood. Richie told me that he hopes to wire an interruptor to the sign at some point so that the letters will occasionally flicker and blink. All of which is to say that you wouldn't be surprised if you stuck your head in the door and saw a few dozen construction workers sucking down suds.
Instead what you get is a long narrow room with a low ceiling and polished wood booths of various sizes for table service. Further back this opens up into the bar area with 7 or 8 bar stools, a beautiful polished wood bar with chalkboards behind, and dramatic 18 foot ceilings. Beyond that is a small "lounge" area with sawdust on the floor and an upright piano (belonging to the Boccato family), which will be home to live ragtime/trad jazz music. Throughout, the walls are paneled in rich, polished dark wood. Throw in the bartenders with their short ties and arm garters, and Dutch Kills is as old school as old school can be.
While we're talking about old school, let's talk about the cocktail program. That's the real reason to visit, of course. As with most other Petraske-school places, Dutch Kills is not a spot for evolved modern mixology. You won't find fat wash drinks or many "new old school" cocktails at Dutch Kills, such as you might find at PDT or Pegu Club, et al. What you will find are impeccably curated ingredients available in an astonishing variety of classic cocktails and new cocktails in the classic style, all served in properly chilled, distinctive glassware with custom-cracked lumps of crystal-clear ice. Former Flatiron Lounge and Clover Club ace Giuseppe Gonzalez is often found behind the bar, among other talented barstaff, and Richie Boccato is everpresent shaking cocktails in the service area, consulting customers in the seating area and in general making sure everything is as it should be. Dutch Kills is very much Richie's baby and his influence pervades the bar. Hey, the guy put up the paneling himself! Although most of the publicity is calling it a "new Petraske bar," and I'm sure Sasha had a hand in its development, it seems apropos to call it Richie Boccato's bar.
As with most of the bars in this family, there isn't much of a "menu" to speak of. Currently a half-dozen Dutch- and Queens-themed cocktails (e.g., Queen's Park Swizzle, Netherland Cocktail, Steinway Punch, etc.) are featured on the chalkboards behind the bar and on Dutch Kills-logo cardstock specially designed with "fill in the blank" spots to write in the date, featured cocktails, wines and beers on offer. I haven't asked, but assume that this system means that the featured cocktail list will change with some frequency. Of course, as always, customers are encouraged to discuss their preferences, avail themselves of the bar staff and go "off menu" to whatever extent they desire.
While Mrs. slkinsey and I were there last evening, we had a Netherland Cocktail, a Mamie Taylor, a riff on the Martinique Daiquiri using an aged Puerto Rican rum, an Alaska Cocktail, a Holland Razor Blade, an Air Mail, a Dutch Julep (genever), an absolutely textbook Ramos Fizz. . . and probably a few more I can't remember for all the obvious reasons. Each one was expertly crafted, and we had the pleasure of light conversation with Giuseppe and watching him work as he chipped blocks of ice to fit the shaker and the various glassware required for each customer's drink.
The ice, as one might expect, is outstanding. They have twice-weekly deliveries of crystal clear 300 pound blocks of ice, which are broken down into lumps and pieces of various sizes and configurations depending on how it will be used. There are no open ice bins, and all the ice is stored in in freezers prior to use. The sole exceptions are a few giant hunks of ice off to the side of the bar that can be used in certain rocks drinks, but which I suspect are also "on display" at least as much to let the customers see the incredible ice than for any real use. These are some big chunks of super-cold, super-dense ice they're using over there, which offers them all kinds of advantages. Whereas really cold "normal" ice might shatter in the shaker, this ice is so dense that these guys can put one mammoth lump into the shaker, jackhammer like crazy getting a lot of movement, and end up with very cold, nicely aerated and never overdiluted drinks every time -- all made possible by the colder temperature, better density and physical size of the ice. Richie and Giuseppe took me around to see the several huge chest freezers full of broken-down block ice in the back, and it was pretty impressive. I'm hoping to come back sometime soon to photograph or perhaps even take some video when they process the ice, which I think would be of great interest around here.
Many of the bar fixtures aren't quite finished. They are still awaiting installation on their draft beer setup (yes, they will feature 4 beers on tap), and the sinks/speed rails are more or less templates of what they eventually want to have. To a certain extent, this offers them some flexibility in modifying the configuration depending on what they discover works best before it's set in stone (or stainless steel, as the case may be). Still, even just as it is, the setup is very nice. Each station is well designed, including a large freezer containing glassware, various special shapes of ice, and a platoon of extra-thick tempered glass mixing vessels for stirred drinks. It must be a pleasure behind the bar. In many ways, the whole design reflects a careful consideration of the lessons learned by Richie and the rest of the team through opening, operating and bartending in their several bars around the city. Even minor touches prove smart ones: Dutch Kills is a cash bar, and there is an ATM right there in the front. In addition, while Dutch Kills does not have a kitchen, they will be offering food in cooperation with nearby restaurant Sage.
I will post some of my (inevitably terrible) snapshots soon. Until then, you can see some good-quality representative shots here that show the bar in it's not-quite-finished state.
Oh.... and did I mention that cocktails are only nine dollars?
27-24 Jackson Avenue
Long Island City, New York
The "BAR" sign isn't up yet in this picture.
The entrance is the large door on the right.
(Edited to fix typos.)
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That. Is. Awesome.
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Pegu has vodka on the back bar, and again no drinks on the menu.
Will all these places make a vodka drink for you? Yes. Will they take a drink on the menu that has gin in it and replace it with Vodka? Probably not. Same way you wouldn't replace a brown-spirit drink with vodka, you can't really do a vodka-gin substitution.
Every time I've been in Pegu Club, I've overheard vodka orders: Cosmos, vodka-tonics, vodka gimlets, vodka martinis (the last two vodka-for-gin substitutions). I don't say they're good drinks, but they exist.
Right. They will make you a Vodka Soda, or will make you a kind of Cosmopolitan if you ask for it. I don't know of any bar that would flat-out refuse to make a vodka drink.*
That said, I have heard Pegu and other top-spot bartenders tell customers they can't make a certain vodka drink because it calls for flavored vodka, and they don't stock any flavored vodkas. These exchanges have occasionally offered opportunities for the bartenders to pitch the customers on their "citrus and juniper flavored vodka" (aka Plymouth gin) as well.
John is correct that Pegu doesn't have, and has never had any vodka drinks on the menu, and also that they won't substitute vodka for another base spirit in the drinks that are on the menu (e.g., you can't get a "Vodka Introduction to Aperol").
* Someone (maybe Dave Wondrich?) told me a story that I hope is true, but imagine is probably apocryphal: It was about a bar where, if a customer ordered a Cosmpolitan, the bartender would uncap a Bud Light and plunk it down on the bar in front of them. When the customer said, "um... I ordered a Cosmopolitan" the reply was "that's how we make 'em here." Icing on the cake was that the customer had to finish the Bud Light before ordering anything else. Probably apocryphal, but it's nice to imagine that this bar existed.
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This thread does seem to be rather timely -- I had a pleasant surprise when my girlfriend ordered a Caipiroska at Bar Blanc in NYC the other day. I could actually taste the spirit mingling with the lime and sugar. While not quite as interesting (to my palate) as a caipirinha (or a ti punch), it was refreshing and well-executed.
One of my proudest moments as a cocktailian came when Mrs. slkinsey ordered a Gimlet at a restaurant and distractedly nodded "sure" at the server's suggestion of a Vodka Gimlet. She was not a cocktailian when we met, but had been drinking my cocktails and at my bars since we began dating. When her Vodka Gimlet arrived and she started drinking it, a puzzled look came across her face. She said, "something's not right with this drink. There's a... I don't know how to put this... there's a... a... certain complexity of flavor that's missing." She may have said other things about the drink as well, but I was too busy wiping tears out of the corner of my eye to notice.
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I think that vodka as a beverage has a reasonable position to occupy. Sip it neat and chilled? Sure.
But, due to the fact that its roles in mixology are more or less confined to adding alcohol without flavor (e.g., Vodka and Juice) or stretching out intense flavors (e.g., Dreamy Dorini Smoking Martini, Pearlescent), it has limited usefulness in a quality cocktail-focused bar. As a result, I think it's unlikely vodka will be making a serious cocktailian comeback anytime soon.
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Since they open at 6:00, I'd think that just before that would be a good time.
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You can wash All-Clad Stainless in the dishwasher, not (as far as I know) the other lines. Perhaps you can wash the Copper Core line, if you don't mind the tarnish on the exposed copper.
I will point out, however, that in my experience there is no way that a dishwasher gets even the Stainless line as clean as a good scouring with Bar Keeper's Friend. Not that this keeps me from tossing my All-Clad Stainless saucepans (I have several of the 1 qt ones) into the dishwasher, of course, but when I want them really sparkling clean and shiny I always end up scrubbing them out with BKF. I've also noticed some minor pitting of the stainless steel of these saucepans since I got a dishwasher around a year and a half ago.
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So, is vodka making a comeback in the fancy bars that have opened in the past few years?
I wouldn't say that it's making much of a comeback in the best cocktail bars. Some of them, notably Flatiron Lounge, have always featured a well-crafted vodka cocktail or two on the menu from time to time. But I wouldn't say that I notice any more of them now than I did 4 years ago. Besides, we've got a long way to go before even casual cocktail imbibers start thinking about vodka in a reasonable way.
I can remember one evening perhaps a year ago when I was sitting at the bar in Flatiron, and a customer requested their vodka cocktail with some fancy "superpremium" vodka instead of Smirnoff or whatever the house was using. A conversation ensued about the fact that it would be impossible to taste the difference. I don't remember if the bartender talked some sense into the customer or whether the customer paid an extra several bucks for a drink that tasted the same. But so long as vodka makers can charge big bucks by putting flavorless alcohol into a fancy bottle, I think it's
And is there really a cocktail that, without the use of other high quality spirits, actually makes you like the taste (or lack thereof) of vodka?Moscow Mule? Maybe 2 or 3 more, but that's about it. I can think of several that work because of the use of other (strongly flavored) high quality spirits.
And another eGulleteer, David Wondrich, mentions that:“For me,” Mr. Wondrich said, “once vodka starts playing nice, and doesn’t push other bottles off the bar, it’s welcome to stay there.”My feelings exactly.
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Something like this is a start?
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Isn't a Cuba Libre made with lime?
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For my money, there's no better lesson on how to make a Mint Julep, to say nothing of being the consumate old-fashioned bartender, thanby Mr. Chris MacMillian, late of the Library Lounge in New Orleans.
Wow, I got a little misty-eyed watching this.
If only he were that friendly and informative in real life. May be a treasure trove of cocktail info, but the guy is a plain curmudgeon in my book.
Asking him to make you a cocktail is as if you're asking him to cut off his left arm. I brought friends to Bar UnCommon (where he works now), and they were shocked by how rude he was the entire evening. As was I.
Huh. Well, everyone has an off night, I suppose. Mrs. slkinsey and I spent the larger part of an evening with him at the old Library Bar, and it couldn't have been better.
The (Re) Birth of Vodka- Is It Possible?
in Spirits & Cocktails
Posted · Edited by slkinsey (log)
Exactly. These aren't cocktails.
No one is arguing that vodka can't be good when served in the proper context. By the same token, wine is pretty good too -- just not when it's part of a "wine cooler."