slkinsey
-
Posts
11,151 -
Joined
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Store
Help Articles
Posts posted by slkinsey
-
-
Right. Although the coal oven doesn't have to be a pizza oven and it doesn't have to be currently operational. So long as a something that can be called a coal oven is in place, you can replace or rehabilitate the coal oven and run it.
-
Honestly, part of why I think people in the media may be bashing Alice Waters right now is simply due to the fact that they're unconsciously influenced by their peers and that this has built into a kind of "consensus opinion." I think this phenomenon also explains the almost unanimous anti-Ducasse backlash in the media when he first opened in NYC.
Here's how I illustrated it in another thread: There was an interesting study done where they divided up a large (>14k) sample into different "worlds" of internet music consumers downloading from a common set of 48 songs. Members from the same "world" could see what the other members were downloading and which songs had been downloaded most, but not how the songs were doing in the other "worlds." If quality along determined the popularity of a song, then one would expect that the songs would be "ranked" fairly equally among the different "worlds." What they found was exactly the opposite -- rankings diverged widely, such that a song ranked #1 in one "world" was ranked #40 in another. This experiment demonstrated many things, among them the influence of chance events in success or failure. But more pertinent to this discussion, it demonstrated the huge influence of one's peers and perceived "consensus opinion" in determining what are generally held to be individual preferences.
People in the media (and people in general) like to suppose that they make up their minds about this sort of thing independently and all on their own. But that's nonsense, of course.
So, you know... all it takes sometimes is for one or two people to decide that they don't like Alice, and if it's just the right time and just the right person, that can easily snowball into a consensus opinion against her. Eventually, just like they write it up in NY Magazine, there will be "backlash to the backlash" and all will be well.
-
Just curious: could someone tell me what a coal oven is and how common they are? When I grew up in NY the only pizza I ever knew was that standard foldable slice where the oil runs down the crease and drips on the paper as you eat it. A far cry from what I want from a pizza now, but something that seems unique to New York or the east coast. When I first moved to CA (a million years ago) I missed that "New York style" pizza. Were they using coal ovens?
The oldest pizzerias and the most tradional pizzerias in New York City use retained heat ovens that are fired using coal instead of the wood that is used in Neapolitan-style retained heat pizza ovens. They are also rectangular "box ovens" with a flat ceiling rather than domed ovens in the Neapolitan syle. These include, among others, Patsy's, Lombardi's, Grimaldi's, Arturo's, etc.
Here is a look into the oven at Arturo's. You can see the pile of coal over on the right.
Here is the oven at Lombardi's
Patsy's East Harlem:
Grimaldi's oven. Here you can see them putting in a full sheet pan of red bell peppers. They took it back out around 90 seconds later, and the peppers were completely black all over. That gives you some idea as to the temperature of these ovens.
-
I rigorously apply the Justice Potter Stewart Standard.
-
One of the distributors recently went so far as to say, “A Manhattan with Carpano Antica is a Vermouth Cocktail. A Manhattan with Dolin Sweet is a Whiskey Cocktail.” That sounds a bit too much like they had been drinking the Haus Alpenz “Kool-Aid”, but it is a fair point.
Of course it's also fair to point out that the Manhattan is supposed to be a vermouth cocktail.
-
To me, that's akin to asking a place to cut in half the "normal" amount of cheese and toppings that honestly belong on there in the first place. I shouldn't have to shortsuit my full price purchase because they can't fulfill their obligation. It's just my opinion, understand, but even so: wouldn't said place be better served by the customer stating in no uncertain terms that the place is undercooking their products, on the whole?
boagman, you're still operating under the false assumption that asking for them to go light on the cheese and light on the toppings on a Lombardi's pizza represents a diminution of quality.
I think that part of their problem is that they're putting too much cheese and toppings on there, and this inhibits the full expression of the "coal oven effect" on the crust. If I were running Lombardi's, it would be standard practice to put on around half as much stuff as they typically do.
All you have to do is compare this Lombardi's pizza with a pizza from the consistently excellent Patsy's East Harlem to see that the Lombardi's pizza has way too much stuff weighing it down. If you order properly (no 5-topping pizzas!) and make sure they're going to be sparing with the toppings, however, it is possible to get a much better Lombardi's pizza. Still not quite as good as Patsy's East Harlem, in my opinion, because Lombardi's doesn't run their oven hot enough, but much better.
Of course, the fact is that the majority of Lombardi's customers are ordering >4 topping pizzas.
To be clear about what I have been saying about Lombardi's: I don't think that asking them to put half the amount of cheese and toppings as usual on my pizza is forcing me to compromise. I think that's the amount they should have been putting on there all along. But for me, the crust of the pizza is far more important than the toppings, and I think it's impossible to get the "coal oven effect" if the pizza is to laden with toppings. However, it is a sad fact that, for most people (you included, it would seem), the toppings are the starring act and the crust is a sideman at best. So Lombardi's goes too heavy on the toppings, I believe, because this is what most of their clientele cares about most.Okay...stating the problem in this way causes me to read it in a different light. I can certainly understand this, and groove with it.
That being said, you couldn't be more wrong about my thoughts on crust vs. toppings. The very best part of Loui's is the crust, and it is a little piece of buttery heaven. It's definitely not the same type of crust to which you're referring, but it's absolutely fantastic in its own place.
Yes, exactly. What you're talking about is clearly an entirely different category of pizza crust than what we're talking about here. A thicker, breadier, buttery (and most likely oily) crust is not what we're after. This is something that, as I explained above, Dom does at Di Fara in Brooklyn for his square pizzas. Generally this is a style that supports fairly copious toppings and, while it can be good in its own way, in my book it doesn't approach the etherial purity of a simple flour, yeast and water dough blown up on a hot oven floor. I want by pizza crusts to be like amazing flatbreads I would be happy to eat with nothing more on top than a drizzle of extra virgin olive oil and a little coarse sea salt.
This picture of a Loui's pizza makes it clear that we're talking about something entirely different in terms of crust. Like I said... those can be good, but for me not etherial. And, frankly, not nearly as difficult to produce.
I like simple pizza, for the most part. The bread, sauce, and cheese (both in taste and consistency) are the biggest/most important parts of the pie, and when it comes to toppings, my favorite pie is simply pepperoni with green peppers (preferably sliced rather than chopped). I'm fine with pepperoni alone, or pepperoni with mushrooms, but when you start getting more crazy/involved, I lose interest fast.Most people who think about pizza the same way I do agree that the best expression of the crust and the best pizza can only be achieved in a lightly-topped pizza margarita or pizza marinara (essentially a margarita with extra herbs and no cheese). Anything more (unless it is added post-baking, as prosciutto usually is) represents a trade-off compromise where you are sacrificing crust quality to gain in toppings.
-
I like Alice Waters and the things she's done. I think her heart is in the right place, and I agree with most of the ideas she espouses.
To the extent that there is backlash against her, I think it's because of Mitch's #1 above: She can come across as preachy, condescending and unconnected to many of the economic and other realities of people who are not wealthy and don't live in California. I agree with rancho_gordo that really what she needs is just some media coaching.
-
Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII.
From the Wikipedia entry:
- In Germany Rudolf Steiner's Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture, published in 1924, led to the popularization of biodynamic agriculture, probably the first comprehensive organic farming system, that was based on Steiner's spiritual and philosophical teachings.
- The first use of the term "organic farming" is by Lord Northbourne (aka Walter James, 4th Baron Northbourne). The term derives from his concept of "the farm as organism", which he expounded in his book, Look to the Land (1940), and in which he described a holistic, ecologically balanced approach to farming. Northbourne wrote of "chemical farming versus organic farming".
- Sir Albert Howard's 1940 book, An Agricultural Testament, was influential in promoting organic techniques, and his 1947 book "The Soil and Health, A Study of Organic Agriculture" adopted Northbourne's terminology and was the first book to include "organic" agriculture or farming in its title.
- In 1939, strongly influenced by Sir Howard's work, Lady Eve Balfour launched the Haughley Experiment on farmland in England. It was the first, side-by-side comparison of organic and conventional farming. Four years later, she published The Living Soil, based on the initial findings of the Haughley Experiment. It was widely read, and lead to the formation of a key international organic advocacy group, the Soil Association.
(Emphasis added for clarity)
Then, in 1962 we have Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. This book turned out to be based on a far amount of junk science, and the subsequent ban on DDT is responsible for literally millions of human deaths from malaria, but this book is largely credited with starting the envirionmental movement in earnest, and was hugels influential on organics in the United States.
Alice Waters, meanwhile, was 18 years old in 1962, and didn't open Chez Panisse until 1971.
The International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements was officially founded in 1972 one year later. Alice must have worked pretty fast.
- In Germany Rudolf Steiner's Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture, published in 1924, led to the popularization of biodynamic agriculture, probably the first comprehensive organic farming system, that was based on Steiner's spiritual and philosophical teachings.
-
Depending on what you mean by "well done" you are likely to be pretty disappointed by most Neapolitan-style pizza, I'd guess (and I should hasten to point out that the pizzerias we are discussing in this thread are not Neapolitan-style). Most true Neapolitan pizza looks like this. It's the "new American Neapolitan-style" pizza that has a very well-done crust that looks like this. In NYC, anyway, by guess is that this grew out of a fusion of true Neapolitan pizza and the traditional NYC coal-oven pizza, which has a very well done (to the point of charring slightly) crust that looks like this.
Getting back to the subject at hand, to many of us (certainly Steven and myself) underbaking crusts is an endemic problem that is present in most pizzerias. Not the best ones, of course, but even in "just below the pinnacle" pizzerias such as Lombardi's. So we're exploring some of the reasons why this may be so, and also what can be done to mitigate this problem in the event that one is not in one of the very best pizzerias.
-
boagman, suffice it to say that I gather we have radically different criteria, preferences and standards when it comes to pizza.
Fair enough, but the thrust of my point was that, in any case, one shouldn't allow a place's inadequacies to dictate whether they provide a decent product, much less one which the customer has to compromise on in order to get a decent example of said product.
To be clear about what I have been saying about Lombardi's: I don't think that asking them to put half the amount of cheese and toppings as usual on my pizza is forcing me to compromise. I think that's the amount they should have been putting on there all along. But for me, the crust of the pizza is far more important than the toppings, and I think it's impossible to get the "coal oven effect" if the pizza is to laden with toppings. However, it is a sad fact that, for most people (you included, it would seem), the toppings are the starring act and the crust is a sideman at best. So Lombardi's goes too heavy on the toppings, I believe, because this is what most of their clientele cares about most.
But, don't get me wrong... I don't consider, nor does Steven consider Lombardi's to be at the pinnacle of NYC pizzerias. They definitely have some issues with their oven management and technique, in my opinion, that keep their product from being as good and as consistent as it could be. We could probably name at least a dozen in the City that are turning out a better product with more consistency. That said, Lombardi's still blows away 99.9% of the pizza in America. That's one great advantage of living in NYC. So you have to understand the context of the conversation we're having about places such as Lombardi's and their "underbaked" crust. The vast majority of people in this country, and even in this city would not consider the crust to be underbaked. This is evidenced by the long lines outside Lombardi's at the lunch and dinner time, and the fact that it is consistently packed during peak hours. But some of the more, shall I say, "crust-centric" pizza eaters, and especially those who have had the opportunity to experience examples of pizza crust being everything it can be (which might include places such as Patsy's East Harlem, Franny's, Sally's Apizza, etc.), there is the feeling that many pizzerias cold be doing more to make their crusts better. One way is figuring out how to cook them longer and more fully without browning the toppings. But, really, considering that the vast majority of pizzeria customers care much more about the toppings than the crust, it's not clear to me that this will ever be a huge priority many beyond a select few pizzerias.
-
Still, regardless of the hour, Lombardi's oven is usually hot enough to turn out a reasonably good crust if you tell them to go extra-light on the toppings.
Wow...there are just so many different ways that I recoil at this statement that I can hardly bring myself back into "calm, cool, and collectedness".
1. A restaurant, which you go to in order to have food prepared for you, doesn't know how to, um, prepare food?
2. At their peak performance, you *might* get a "reasonably good crust"?
3. Your best bet for getting a decent product is to tell them to *skimp on the product*?
Good sweet merciful heavens...why go at all? There has to be a certain threshold that you're not willing to accept anymore. If I ever had to tell a pizza joint, in order to get a properly cooked pizza, that they should go *light* on the toppings, I would absolutely want to shoot myself. If all I want is a decent loaf of bread, then I can get that in myriad places.
At my absolute favorite pizza place ever, Loui's Pizza in Hazel Park, MI, I also order my pizza well done, or extra-well done, or whatever. Loui's, however, has a crust that just makes me weep for joy, and it's certainly different (thicker, breadier) than NY-style thin stuff. I'm not really a cheese person, and pizza is actually the only exception, really.
But to honestly *reward* a place for lousy cooking by lowering their cost-of-product? My money goes elsewhere.
boagman, suffice it to say that I gather we have radically different criteria, preferences and standards when it comes to pizza.
-
Not sure if this matters but the Pizza Hut website says: "At Pizza Hut, we take great pride and care to provide you with the best food and dining experience in the quick-service restaurant business."
I think it depends quite a bit on the Pizza Hut.
The traditional "Red Roof Pizza Hut" is definitely not, in my opinion, a fast food restaurant. There is a large menu selection, food is prepared to order, you sit at a table and are waited on by a server, the meal can easily take 40 minutes, and you pay at the end of the meal with a tip for the server. Definitely not fast food.
The traditional "Red Roof Pizza Hut," however, is an increasinly small part of "Pizza Hut, Inc., a subsidiary of Yum! Brands, Inc." Pizza Hut, Inc. these days is mostly comprised of kiosks, co-locations with other Yum! Brands subsidiary chains (e.g., a Pizza Hut/KFC/Taco Bell), Pizza Hut Express, carry-out, carry-out/delivery and carry-out/delivery/minimal dine-in locations. These are all fast food restaurants, and carry a different menu from the "Red Roof" locations.
So... a "Red Roof Pizza Hut" is not a fast food restaurant, but Pizza Hut, Inc. is largely a fast food company.
-
Also, I suspect that they allow the oven to run at a lower temperature during non-rush hours to conserve fuel.
This was 9pm and the joint was slammed. If the oven wasn't hot enough then, it's never hot enough (which may very well be the case). My guess about the reason is, however, that if you cook every pizza for one minute less you can sell a hundred more pizzas by the end of the night.
Right. Well, Lombardi's is notorious for poor oven management. Like Grimaldi's, if you want pizza from the oven at peak temperature, it's best to get there at the beginning of whatever the rush is. I find that these places tend to get the oven screaming hot just before the rush, but then are lax about keeping it there throught the rush (every pizza removes a little heat from the oven).
Still, regardless of the hour, Lombardi's oven is usually hot enough to turn out a reasonably good crust if you tell them to go extra-light on the toppings.
Of course they could just leave the pizza in there another 90 seconds, and that would make for a better crust. But it's also worth pointing out that this is tricky with a coal-fired oven. With any oven, there's going to be a "just right" temperature that bakes the crust the way you want it without overcooking the cheese and toppings for the technique you're using and the style you're working in. So, if the coal-fired oven loses enough stored heat that the crusts aren't coming out as cooked and charred as they should, it's not as simple as leaving the pizza in there for another 90 seconds because it is likely that another 90 seconds would mean that the cheese is browned and the toppings overcooked. Most people don't like this. When this happens they could start transitioning to the "Don method" of putting on most of the cheese after the crust has cooked halfway through, but they probably can't be bothered and this would decrease throughput. The real solution, of course, is proper oven management.
With steel deck oven pizza, where the temperature is set with a dial, there really is no excuse. It's either that they have set the oven temperature incorrectly for the technique and style they are making, or the pizzaiolo is impatient and pulling the pizza too early.
Underdone pizza is also due to dough that's too thick.This is a good example of when the technique/style is not matched to the temperature of the oven. There doesn't need to be anything wrong with a relatively thick crust, but you can't do it in a coal- or wood-fired oven, or even a peak-setting steel deck oven unless you use a special, labor intensive technique such as Dom uses for Di Fara's square pizza (cooked in a pan with lots of olive oil, removed multiple times for additional layerings of cheese and sauce, etc.).
-
Undercooking and overcooking depends a lot on the heat of the oven, in my opinion. And what it means is that the temperature of the oven is too low.
In coal-oven places such as Lombardi's, it really just comes down to poor oven management. They have been notoriously lax when it comes to keeping the oven stoked for quite some time. Also, I suspect that they allow the oven to run at a lower temperature during non-rush hours to conserve fuel. So if you eat there during off hours (which I know you like to do) you radically increase your likelihood of getting a pizza that suffers from the effects of an insufficiently heated oven. This can manifest itself in a variety of ways. Certainly you won't get that etherial, puffy, moist-crisp pliability of a coal oven pizza at its best. But beyond that you may even get an insipid pale crust in which the dough itself is not sufficiently cooked.
For steel deck ovens, some sacrifices are already made and some effects impossible, because these run at a much lower temperature. This is compounded by the fact that many steel deck oven places aren't even running their ovens at peak temperature. However, as you observe, it's certainly possible to get a better (albeit different) crust from a well-run steel deck oven oepration than a poorly-run coal oven operation.
In both cases, it's a matter of making sure that the crust is sufficiently cooked through without browning the cheese, which makes it leathery and unpleasant. When you have a medium-temperature oven (i.e., steel deck oven running at peak heat or insufficently stoked coak oven) there are really only two ways to get a decently cooked crust without overcooking the toppings: (1) You can go very thin crust and extra-light on the toppings so that the pizza has a much smaller thermal load. This, I have found, is the best strategy for someplace like Lombardi's, and when I'm there I always instruct the server to "tell them to put half as much sauce and cheese on the pizza as they normally put on there, and get a good char on there." You can get a reasonably high quality "coal oven effect" out of a place like Lombardi's if you tell them to do this. (2) You start with relatively light cheese, bake the pizza half-way through, then pull it out, add more cheese plus the other toppings, and put it back on the floor of the oven until the cheese is bubbling. This is what Dom does at Di Fara, and it works well. This produces a crisp, chewy and relatively dry crust.
If it's a steel deck oven set below peak temperature, and especially if they're baking in "pizza pans" the only way you can get a half-decent crust of this type is to bake the thing for 20 minutes, minimum.
In all these cases, the major factor is that the guy baking the pizza has to care.
Some people don't mind, or even enjoy browned mozzarella. I think it's leathery and unpleasant, especially when it's mediocre Wisconsin "pizza cheese" -- although I should hasten to point out that it also ruins everything that is special about fresh mozzarella or high quality low moisture mozzarella. But if you're one of those who appreciates browned mozzarella, you should always be able to get a better quality crust simply by asking for the pizza "well done."
-
It's a good thing you're not aiming for "authentic Italian spaghetti primavera" since it was invented by Sirio Maccioni at Le Cirque right here in NYC.
It consists simply of blanched/shocked Spring vegetables (the original contained broccoli florets, zucchini batons, snow peas, asparagus tips, baby peas and mushrooms, I think) tossed with spaghetti and a sauce made with tomatoes, butter and cream and chopped fresh herbs (parsley and basil).
So long as you use barely cooked spring vegetables, a light pink sauce and chopped fresh herbs, I would think the possibilities are endless.
-
Doesn't starch help to prevent curdling in cheese fondue?
-
Really? Who is serving fast food burgers from meat that is ground fresh on premises?
I think Fuddrucker's qualifies as fast food, and they grind fresh on the premises.
Huh. Does it make a difference? Are their burgers any good?
-
I think people have this idea about Alice Waters that she's suggesting things that, when it really comes down to it, are just completely unrealistic. We cannot feed this country on organic produce, for example. That's just not going to happen.
In a way, I'm no more bugged by Alice Waters than I am by rabid locavores who just happen to live by the Central Valley in California and "just don't understand why everyone can't eat locally and seasonally." Well, move to Minneapolis and give it a try, I say.
-
Okay, I admit that she bugs me a bit, too. Why? Because she's an urbanite preaching to urbanites. Broad swaths of the US are decidedly rural, where people never stopped gardening, sharing vegetables with friends & neighbors, and cooking with local ingredients. 4-H kids still raise livestock, high schools teach agriculture as a credit class, home ec (foods & nutrition) hasn't been dropped from the curriculum, and nobody gets all excited: because it's a way of life.
Last Friday, I stood in line at a local butcher, chatting with people of all ages, races, and social classes. While we waited, we watched the butcher carve up a 230 lb hog. I talked to the hog's owner, and he was going home to make headcheese that afternoon. When my turn came, I asked for skirt steak, and the butcher pieced one off as I watched. This wasn't "special" service, it was the same level of service available to anyone who walked through the door.
So I find that Waters doesn't really know much about rural America, and it shows.
I don't get this. Why should she be preaching to local gardening, 4-H livestock raising, local butcher-watching people living in rural areas? Let's assume that this picture you have painted is in any way typical of Americans living in rural areas (it isn't, of course, and I've spent enough time in various rural areas around America to know). According to the last census, eighty percent of Americans live in urban areas. I have to assume her message is for them. And, you know... the relatively common non-local gardening, non- 4-H livestock raising, non-local butcher-watching people living in rural areas.
-
Whereas several of the better fast-food places are serving burgers cooked from raw and in some cases even ground on premises.
Really? Who is serving fast food burgers from meat that is ground fresh on premises?
Another example on that point: PDT and Crif Dogs in New York City. Crif Dogs is a fast-food order-and-pay-at-the-counter place serving hot dogs and fast-food-style burgers. Next door is PDT, a high-end cocktail bar offering food from Crif Dogs. So if you get a Crif burger at Crif is it fast food but it becomes not fast food if you get it served to you at PDT by a server and pay the tab after?Yes, exactly. Which is why it makes more sense to speak of a "fast food restaurant" rather than "fast food."
-
I remember junk food being spoken about too, but as a larger term encompassing more than just food from restaurants. Cheetos and Doritos, those were junk food.
Right, Steven. Exactly. I should have added that for clarity.
What I'm saying is that, if I heard anyone saying bad things about McDonald's hamburgers in 1977, it was likely that they were ranting about "junk food" and talking down McDonald's burgers together with potato chips, soda and candy bars, rather than ranting about McDonald's as "fast food" together with Kentucky Fried Chicken (which also used to be pretty good, before changing the name to KFC) and Taco Bell (eh... not so much).
-
When did "fast food" go from being a largely positive descriptor to a largely negative one?
Was it ever a largely positive descriptor? I'm not old enough to remember the early uses of the term in the 1950s and 1960s, but when I was a kid in the 1970s it was certainly not a positive descriptor among my peers' parents -- even though at the time most fast food was pretty tasty, as opposed to now. I searched for New York Times mentions in the 1950s and 1960s and they all seemed pretty neutral. There was no "gee whiz, isn't this futuristic fast-food stuff great! It's so much better than home-cooked food!"
I don't really remember the words "fast food" being used all that often in the 70s. Rather, "junk food" (which dates to 1973) was the term used to describe undesirable foods. I can remember hearing "junk food" a lot in the 1970s, but not "fast food."
-
There are many examples of fast food being good food, primarily outside of the US.
What examples are you thinking of?
One example I can think of is a paninoteca in Italy. This translates, more or less, as "sandwich shop." Only it isn't like a NY deli, where the sandwiches are all made to-order. Rather, various panini and tramezzini, often with fanciful names, are made fresh each morning. You walk up to the counter, choose the sandwich you want, which may or may not be briefly grilled in a panini-press, and they give it to you wrapped in wax paper.
I frequently ate lunch at the paninoteca Harnold's* just outside the Teatro Rossini in Pesaro. Their sandwiches are far better than anything I have ever had at a fast food restaurant in the United States, or even most middlebrow restaurants that serve sandwiches. All the ingredients are fresh. Bread is delivered daily. They use high quality salumi and local cheeses, etc. They even make their own mayonnaise each morning. This is considered fast food (google harnold's pesaro "fast food" and you will see that it is described as "self service fast food"). And it does fit all of the commonly-listed criteria given above for a fast food restaurant.
But, aren't there plenty of examples of much-better-than-McDonald's fast food right here in America? Doesn't that describe, for example, a NYC slice shop? Or a Philly cheesesteak place? Or a gyro place? Or a taco truck? Or a fried clam shack? Or a falafel cart? This is part of what I was getting at above: That somehow we have collapsed all fast food into a single category that is defined in the public imagination by the lowest-common-denominator fast food megachains.
* The name of the restaurant always puzzled me, because in my mind somehow I couldn't get past the "H" in the name. Then, one day as I was eating one of my favorite sandwiches there, which was named the "Mister C," it dawned on me that the owners were evoking Happy Days ("H" is silent in Italian, so the name is pronounced "Arnold's").
(Edited to fix spelling.)
-
When the quality started to decline greatly (like Holly, I can remember when McDonald's used to actually be pretty good).
And also, when we began to see that increasing percentages of the population were eating a very large proportion of their meals at fast food megachains, and the epidemiological health consequences of this diet became too obvious to ignore.
Both of these things, I'd guess, began in earnest sometime in the mid-1980s.
The chronic undercooking of pizza
in Restaurant Life
Posted
I think there are a lot more potentially grandfathered oven locations in NYC than one might think.