slkinsey

I don't think this is a realistic situation you have outlined here. No one "can only afford Tyson chicken." There is such a thing as doing without, and I would suggest that it is entirely possible for someone to obtain an equally inexpensive source of protein without eating factory chicken. In no way is cheap chicken a necessity of life. One could easily get protein mostly from things like tofu and rice & beans and, if doing without chicken is unthinkable, eat only the occasional piece of chicken (or beef, etc.) from small family farms. Some people don't want to give up chicken for tofu and rice & beans, etc. -- but some people don't want to give up foie gras. Although chicken is much more commonly consumed, it is fundamentally no more a necessity than foie gras. Both depend on want rather than need. The only difference is that one is more expensive than the other. I don't think anyone here is arguing for cruelty to animals. At the same time, no one has sufficiently demonstrated that gavage is inherrently cruel to animals -- or any more inherrently cruel than all the other things that go along with raising animals for slaughter even in the best of circumstances. I still cannot understand why an animal who was presumably being subjected to cruel treatment would run to the person in order to be subjected to that treatment again, as ducks run to the feeder to be gorged. It has often been pointed out that stressing the ducks only leads to a lower quality liver and thus less money for the farmer, so the feeders have a real economic incentive to treat the ducks well -- and money speaks loudest of all. Regardless, I think we should be able to agree that in all other aspects of life except for gavage, the quality of life is substantially better for ducks raised for foie gras compared to factory chickens. What is clear is that terms like "force feeding," an insufficent understanding of the physiology* and psychology of ducks, anthropomorphism and sensationalism have led people to make certain conclusions that are not fully informed -- good faith and intentions notwithstanding. Whether or not there is a law against the production of foie gras in California has no bearing on whether or not gavage is inherrently cruel to animals (it should be noted that the California law doesn't come into effect until 2012, was likely accepted as a political move by the foie gras producers to reduce immediate pressure, will likely be strongly challenged before it does go into effect). * For example, most people think that gavage deposits the food into the duck's stomach. This is incorrect. The food is deposited into the craw, from which it is transmitted to the stomach for digestion at the duck's own pace.

The last statement is true only if all the fois(sic) in the world is the same and nothing but the same ones that resided inside the geese and ducks your German Stepgrandpa raised. Could you clarify this, FaustianBargain? I'm not sure it makes logical sense. As I read it, Mabelline is saying that she believes the way her German Stepgrandpa raised geese and ducks for foie gras was humane, and that this means it is possible to raise geese and ducks for foie gras humanely. This makes logical sense to me. If we accept that her German Stepgrandpa could do it humanely, then it is possible for anyone to do it humanely. I'm not quite sure what you're saying but it sounds like you're saying that Mabelline's statement to the effect that it is possible to raise geese and ducks for foie gras humanely is true only with respect to the geese and ducks already raised by her German Stepgrandpa? This doesn't make logical sense to me, but perhaps I am not interpreting your statement correctly.

Some questions re "aging" The ash/oil misxure is rubbed on the outside and the inside of the tagine? Also, is this somthing that should be stopped once the tagine starts to be used for cooking? Or can you cure it, maybe cook a few dishes and then do a few oil/ash treatments? It's ready for cooking more or less right after the initial cure, yes?

I could be convinced by some of the anti-foie gras arguments, or at least convinved of the non hypocricical motivations of those in the anti camp. But here's the thing: if we're going to talk of "humane treatment" and "quality of life," there is simply no way a duck raised for foie gras doesn't have a much better life than the average factory chicken. I've said before that if I had to choose between living as a duck faised for foie gras or living as a Tyson chicken, I'd choose to be the duck in a heartbeat. Does this mean that some of the foie gras criticisms don't have merit? Of course not. But it does say to me that many of the anri foie crusaders have their priorities mixed up. You want to crusade to improve the lives of animals raised for slaughter and consumption? good for you. Where do you think you'll affect the greater number of animal lives -- working against foie gras production or working for better conditions in chicken factory farms? I'd say it's around one million to one in favor of the latter, if not more. Trotter wants to ban foie gras and refuses to use it in his restaurants? Fine. Well, he ought stop serving chicken and beef and lamb in his restaurants as well, unless he can demonstrate that the animals slaughtered for his restaurants have a substantially better quality of life than ducks raised for foie gras. And hey, while we're at it, let's talk about "line caught" fish, which are dragged through the water by a hook piercing the jaw and then "drowned" to death in the air. If Trotter thinks all the animals he served at his restaurants live "suffering free" lives, by his definition, he's sadly mistaken. Does he suppose every piece of beef he serves came from a cow raised as the beloved pet of an Amish family until it was lulled to sleep with a reading of Charlotte's Web and then gently, lovingly killed as it dreamt of sweet clover? Now, of course, there always comes the question of what is acceptable treatment for any animal raised for slaughter. For this, it helps if one has an understanding of the animal's physiology and, to the extent possible, psychology. The esophagus of a duck, for example, is lined with something very similar to the material our fingernails are made of. And, of course, ducks and geese have a natural gorging instinct. One reads of ducks gathering around the feeder and standing in line to be gorged. Is this unnatural? Yea, to a certain extent. So is feeding grain to cows. Domesticating an animal and raising it for slaughter is inherrently "unnatural." But it's not clear to me that doing any of these "unnatural" things necessarily makes the animal "suffer." Could the gorging method be done in a way that was inhumane? Certainly. But that doesn't mean that the gorging method is inherrently inhumane. So I say it is a flawed premise to declare foie gras production inhumane based simply on the gorging method. This would be inhumane for humans, and probably for most mammals, but not for ducks and geese. So, I invite everyone who renounces foie gras for reasons of conscience to also renounce any animal that is not raised free foraging on a family farm, including any animals "finished" on grain.

So... I took delivery of my Souss tagine from tagines.com yesterday. Soaked it in water for several hours, rubbed with oil and put it in a 250F over overnight. Some observations: 1. It was very interesting how much it smelled like clay. I could smell clay as soon as I opened tbe box, and when I put it in the oven the apartment really smelled like baking clay for a few hours. 2. As Paula has mentioned, you can really see the flakes of mica throughout the clay. Very interesting. 3. I was a little surprised at the geometry of the base. I had been expecting something that was more or less wok shaped -- which is to say, broadly curved all the way to the bottom. That's what this picture of Paula's looks like to me, and as far as I can tell, we ordered the same tagine from the same place. Perhaps it's an illusion in the photograph? The geometry of mine is more like this: It seems deeper than the other tagine styles, but fundamentally isn't something I'd call "rounded." Is this normal?

I think the best way to try Campari for the first time is probably in a weak Campari soda (Campari, sparkling water, ice, maybe a twist of lemon). Straight Campari is too overwhelming for most people on the first try. For similar reasons, I think a dry Martini is a poor choice for the ginophobe who is trying to develop an appreciation for gin. The bottom line, though, is that for most Americans, Campari is a taste that has to be acquired. American tastes tend mostly toward the sweet side of the spectrum, or to mostly-sweet-with-some-sour. Americans, by and large, do not enjoy or appreciate bitter flavors. Italians, on the other hand, love bitter flavors. Hence the popularity of radicchio and bitter greens, bitter soft drinks like Chinotto, and the whole family of amari both as aperitivo (Campari, Cynar, etc.) and digestivo (Fernet Branca, Averna, etc.). Here's a thought: try a swig of Fernet Branca before having a Campari soda. Relatively speaking, the Campari soda will seem hardly bitter at all. It might make an interesting thread to talk about beverages and foods that one makes a conscious effort to acquire despite not being attracted to it, or perhaps even disliking it, on the first try.

From THE BEST: Chinese Dumplings: Aside from the fried pork dumplings, soup dumplings and boiled pork and leek dumplings, an absolute must-have is the scallion pancake. Best in the city, I think. We also very much like the rice cake dishes and usually get the mushroom rice cake. Last time out I think we had spinach and mushroom Shanghai lo mein, which was very good. Moderator's note: Two threads were merged starting with the following post.

The soup dumplings at NGB are called "Steamed Crab Meat & Pork Tiny Buns" and "Steamed Tiny Buns with Pork." For more NGB recommendations and discussion, see here.

In a visit to New Green Bo a few days ago, Fat Guy turned me on to another dumpling there I had never tried before. I'm usually not one for boiled dumplings, but NGB's boiled pork and leek dumplings are outstanding. They have now firmly entered the standard list for the obscene amount of food Fat Guy and I order when we're there. This makes me think of trying their boiled seafood dumplings as well. NGB even makes an acceptably tasty version of steamed vegetable dumplings. Gotta love the service, though. Nice and surly, just the way I like it.

What kind of oven do they use, Ned? Is it a wood oven or a regular stainless pizza oven?

I pre-ordered some just now. Looking forward to it. And glad to see you back around here. Don't stay away so long next time.

Just discovered this thread. Am a big fan of Van Winkle's Bourbons and Rye. A friend recently informed me they are sold out of the Rye. They have some more in the pipeline; but, it won't be ready for 6 more years or so. :-( What?! I'll have to look into this.

This is very cool stuff, Tony. I wonder if you could comment briefly on the size of the plate. One thing I have noticed is that restaurants tend to use a much larger plate-to-food ratio than most home cooks. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that one of the biggest things a home cook can do to achieve a more "restaurant" look at home is to purchase oversize plates. It seems that having a lot of "white space" around the food gives one a lot more to work with in terms of presentation. Also, another thing I see a lot of is dishes that are plated in deep "bowl/plates" with broth around them instead of a sauce.

What is the expecting mother going to drink? A nonalcoholic libation would be a nice thing to have.

How about a Bacardi cocktail (Bacardi white rum, lime juice, grenadine)?

Pink but not gin, eh? I can't offer any non-Cosmo pink cocktails with vodka, not being much of a vodka drinker (but just about anything with a splash of cranberry will turn out pink). How about a pisco sour with Peychaud's bitters? Or a caipirinha with muddled cherries and/or blood orange?

A salted ice bath might be even better. Colder and also puts some seasoning into the chicken.

Thanks for the article, Elie. I think I must have missed it the first time around. As ever, Rob has some interesting things to say -- as do some of the people he quotes in the article. I'm not so sure I agree, however, when he says that "Houston is on the cutting edge of the new cocktail trend." He also says that Texans "drink more than twice as much distilled spirits as we do wine. And if you figure that those spirits are diluted in cocktails, you realize that by volume we probably drink six times more cocktails than wine." This didn't seem quite right to me. Although I am a New Yorker by choice and a Massachusetts yankee by birth, most of my extended family is in Texas, and my parents have lived in "Houston for around 15 years now. I did some digging. According to the Texas Safety Network, Texans drank 26 gallons of beer, 1 gallon of liquor, 1.5 gallons of wine and 1.5 gallons of malt liquor (i.e., Colf 45, Zima, etc.) per capita in 2003. This, and all the other statistical evidence I've seen (e.g., here and here) portray Texas as an overwhelmingly beer-drinking state, with liquor bringing up the rear. Experience tells me that much of this liquor is consumed in the form of shots and frozen margaritas. Anyway, that's really a minor quibble. The article is overall a very good one, with some provocative statements from a few notables. I found this an interesting one: Although one cannot discount Adria's culinary importance, I'm not sure he is destined to be a major figure in the evolution of the modern cocktail. On the other hand, I'd be interested to hear whether others think the idea of "deconstructed cocktails" and "melting essences" and that sort of thing are likely to become dominant paradigms. Walsh describes Adria's deconstructed piña colada as little pieces of pineapple sorbet, coconut foam and rum Jell-O lined up on a soup spoon that "become a cocktail" when you chew them in your mouth and mix them together. Danny Meyer also contributed some interesting stuff. Walsh characterizes Meyer as "one of the main forces behind the cocktail revolution in New York. I would imagine this is more due to the cocktails served at his restaurants, which were among the first to do cocktails themed with the restaurant's food, than his mixological skills. I had never considered this before, but it's a very interesting point. I wonder what others think about the importance of Danny Meyer's group in the cocktail revival. It was somewhat interesting, and unexpected, to read an article about the underpinnings of the cocktail movement in NYC without hearing the name Dale DeGroff.

Shouldn't make too much of a difference if the marinade is already cold, right? That would only accelerate the cooling of the chicken. Of course, one could always throw the chicken in an ice bath for 30 minutes or so before going to the buittermilk.

This is exciting. My Souss tagine (finally) is set to arrive on Monday and my copy of Paula's book shortly thereafter. I guess I'll buy a wok ring sometime this weekend. So... how soon can I start cooking in this thing? Sounds like I should give it at least a day for seasoning according to these instructions posted elsewhere: Since I live in NYC, unfortunately I do not have a fireplace for wood ash -- so I guess it will be just oil for me. After that, I'd love an inaugural recipe that's really going to show me what this thing can do -- not to mention start infusing flavor into the unglazed clay. Any suggestions?

I am quite interested in purchasing from a live market myself the next time I make fried chicken. This is undoubtedly the way my mother (and certainly her mother) had fried chicken. I am wondering, though, how to manage the whole buttermilk soaking part. Ordinarily I would marinate in Red Devil sauce for around 8 hours and then soak in buttermilk for around 16 hours before frying (usually in the afternoon). To a certain extent, however, this would seem to defeat the purpose of getting superfresh just-killed chicken. Now I'm thinking of getting the freshly killed chicken early in the morning, soaking in buttermilk/Red Devil for around 8 hours and then frying in the evening.

In re to the simmer mat or other heat diffuser: If one is using a rounded tagine (e.g., Souss) on a gas stove, is there any advantage to using one of these devices? Or might there actually be some disadvantage? I had rather envisioned using the Souss tagine with a wok ring over direct (albeit low) gas heat.

You should be able to order Medieval Arab Cookery by Maxine Rodinson directly from David Brown Book Co., the American distributor of Prospect Books (the publisher). They are selling it in hardcover for 60 dollars. And do check out the other food-related offerings at David Brown Book Co. Many books I have never seen before on interesting subjects.

Just a guess here, but cold egg wash probably has increased viscosity compared to warm. This likely means not so much that the cold egg wash adheres to the chicken better when it's cold, but that the layer of egg wash is thicker once adhered. Related, but not exactly the same thing. Again, just a guess.

The egg wash will probably adhere better if you pat the chicken pieces dry, then dust with a little bit of flour mixture (not very much will stick, so it's not the same thing as "double dipping") and then go into the egg wash. This is because wet things like to stick to dry things and vice versa. Dusting the towel-dried chicken pieces with flour makes the surface of the chicken dry before it goes into the egg wash.